OK, everyone, I've finally got my pages up and I'd love to hear your thoughts on them. There are some formatting issues which I'm working out still so please be kind on that score.

I'm sure many of you will find my arguments familiar as I work-shopped them here. But in many cases I've expanded or clarified them somewhat.

I doubt you guys are going to like my ideas, but that's not really the point is it? Anyway, they're out there for all to see now.

http://bernie.cncfamily.com/scientology/ej_scn/index.html

EJ: I have no rebuttal - just the sad feeling that, contrary to what I had thought, you may never get out.

Excellent piece of dead-agenting there, E.J. I especially liked the way you take the beginnings of discussions from these boards, where you provide a rebuttal to one of the critics, but then don't bother to post the replies to your own comments that we make.

I think you will find that your efforts will backfire, though. The first thing that anyone who reads your page is likely to do is come here and see for themselves what you have described. And then they will see what the critical arguments against Scientology really are. They will have first hand access to the evidence, and, if they are willing to do so, they will be able to make up their own minds.

It is unfortunate that all of our arguments have failed to get through to you. It is unfortunate that you choose to ignore the real valid arguments against Scientology and Hubbard, and instead concentrate on the flawed arguments that some of us put forward.

I guess you will just have to find out for yourself, the hard way. I hope for your sake that you are one of the lucky ones, and that the worst things that happens to you is to have your money leached away by fraudulent promises.

Dr. Stupid

E.J.,

Well, you obviously spent a lot of time and effort to put this together. I was a little distressed to see one of my posts on your site as an example of an extreme critical view. Of course what I say in the public domain is fair game and you're welcome to it, but I believe you took it out of context. Also, I am a poor example of the criticism seen on this board and have been called to task by other more successful and articulate critics.

Anyway, good luck.

Skeptix2

Notice he included Slicer's more aggressive posts but doesn't bother including the posts by other critics which followed, where we essentially called him down.

Looks like you'll get that ethics chit after all, E.J. (I thought you were a male in your twenties or thirties.)

Someone told me E.J. put his page up, and I just had to pop back in briefly. While there are a bunch of issues I'd like to comment on, there is one particular issue I will. E.J. writes on http://bernie.cncfamily.com/scientology/ej_scn/cost.html "When critics quote their calculations of costs (usually inflated for dramatic effect)"

As far as I recall, I was the only person on this board to offer an estimation of costs up to OT VIII, so this looks like my ball. Specifically, I said in http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=4244: "Total cost to OT VIII is subject to several variables. I did a conservative estimate from last year's official price list, and ended up at about $450,000 (with some package discounts, not including accomodation). Could be much less, could be much more, depending on your personal situation, whether you do any of the courses as CoS staff, etc. " (Friday, November 30, 2001 - 06:59 pm) and "Number of hours of auditing required for audited levels are based on the estimates given in "What is Scientology?". An estimate of ten years total on OT7, which may be a bit high, but certainly not unrealistic. OTOH, no extra repairs included, just standard set-ups and OT eligibility as per WIS, and two intensives checkups per 6 months on Solo NOTs, which people have said were quite normal until very recently, when it may have been lowered a bit.
As I said, it's a very rough estimate. There are so many variables. But please, do make an estimate of your own. " (Friday, November 30, 2001 - 09:49 pm)

E.J. did not offer any such estimate - at least not on this thread or on any other threads I have read (if you did, E.J., and I missed it, I apologize and please point it out to me)

What is overtly noticable about E.J.'s webpage about "The Cost of Freedom" is that the only actual price given is "a Scientology book for a couple of bucks"!

Now, I'm personally not all that interested in the price issue. I do find it very sad when I talk to people who may have spent not only all their life savings but also gotten heavily into debt to pay for Scn services, and who are not comfortable with the situation. But it still is far from top of my list of things regarding the CoS that I disagree with. I have myself never asked for a refund or repayment from the CoS, nor sued them for damages or any such thing. So precisely because money is one of the issues where I'm probably less emotionally involved as regards the CoS, I think it's an excellent place for me to start commenting E.J.'s page.

Christmas and all, I'm not going to take this on right at this moment! My optimistic intention is still to eventually put up a webpage giving cost estimates for 4-5 hypothetical scenarios (for example: "goes up the Bridge wholly as staff", "does as much training as possible", "quick pc", "average pc" and "pc who needs some extra handlings" - it would be impossible to cover every variation, so the idea is rather to present a few possible cases to better illustrate how costs may vary. Suggestions welcome!) All of course with sources for the data noted, and all of my suppositions pointed out with my reasoning explained. Naturally also with a prominent link to E.J.'s page.

I would really appreciate feedback from those of you who are still, or were recently (within the last 2-3 years) involved in the CoS and may have information regarding prices and services that I can't find in written sources. When I'm back in the new year, I'll start a thread about it.

Unless of course E.J. by that time has already made some reasonable, honest and detailed estimates available, so I don't need to go to all that trouble. (Well, it is Christmas soon and a girl can wish )

Hi Catarina! I'm glad you had a chance to visit my pages. Actually, the cost stuff was based as much on Andreas' page here on OC as it was on your estimates.

Here is one little example:
Student Hat Course $960 The Study Tapes $425

Someone I know personally recently paid about $ 1100 for this course & materials including the IAS discount.

So, his estimate is a bit high. Catarina, if you do a proper set of estimates as you describe I'd be happy to link it to my page.

Of course, the relative inaccuracy of these estimates is not my core point anyway.



I'm sorry if some of you feel I've taken your comments out of context. If you really feel I've misrepresented your point of view let me know and I'll try to make my point without your quote. It's very difficult to distill so many varied viewpoints and still keep things accessible and brief. That's why I don't quote very many of you directly, but instead try to synthesize the basic arguments.

I did use Stimpson's post specifically because I felt he's made his position on the science issue VERY clear.

I intend to continue this work, at a somewhat lesser rate, so please feel free to point out any obvious errors I've made. It's not always easy for me to put on the 'critic' hat to argue your points for you as I'm writing.

EJ wrote, "If you don’t agree with the critics, then you’re either an apologist or brainwashed. There is no other explanation for them. And so, it’s difficult to have an intelligent conversation with an anti-cultist. They simply discount anything you say. It doesn’t matter to them that there are literally millions of written testimonials over the last fifty years from Church members extolling the virtues of Scientology. They would rather put undue weight on the tiny minority of ‘horror stories’ that can be dredged up.

In the mind of an anti-cultist there is simply no room for any positive information regarding Scientology. So you will never gain any ground on any issue. I would suggest you not waist (sic) your time trying."

EJ, I can put a mirror up to most of what I read on your site, and here's what it looks like from the other side of the fence......for instance:

My changes are in (PARENTHESIES AND CAPS)

If you don’t agree with the (SCIENTOLOGIST), then you’re either an (SP OR A PSYCH). There is no other explanation for them. And so, it’s difficult to have an intelligent conversation with an (INDOCTRINATED SCIENTOLOGIST). They simply discount anything you say. It doesn’t matter to them that there are literally (HUNDREDS) of written (AFFIDAVITS AND ACCOUNTS) over the last (?) years from (EX-) Church members (TELLING OF) the (OUTPOINTS, HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES, CRUELTY, FAMILY-DESTROYING POLICIES) of Scientology. They would rather (POINT OUT THE "MILLIONS" OF TESTIMONIALS THAT ARE REQUIRED UPON EACH CYCLE COMPLETION BEFORE THE STUDENT/PC CAN MOVE ON ***some of which, I am sure, are sincere; nevertheless, THEY ARE REQUIRED, NOT VOLUNTARY)

In the mind of an (INDOCTRINATED SCIENTOLOGIST) there is simply no room for any (NEGATIVE) information regarding Scientology. So you will never gain any ground on any issue. I would suggest you not (WASTE) your time trying.


You see, the door swings both ways. I was frankly surprised to see so much HATRED towards critics on your site.....doing just what you accuse OC of. Some critics deserve it, but as Charlie pointed out, you represent the worst of the bunch as the norm, and it just isn't so.

Y'see, EJ....I once thought just as you do. But I doubt you have ever thought as I do now. I hope one day that you do. I will forever keep and use the good stuff that I learned, but I can separate it from the "forced thinking" crap that spoiled it.

Ooo, thanks for catching that typo, Saguaro. I hate those!

Saguaro, I have to say I disagree. I have found that even with moderate, relatively sane critics, there is a point at which they just shut down anything positive regarding Scientology. Either they cannot confront it or their mind is simply made up.

I *do* agree that my pages are aimed at the more vicious critics however. As I really don't have a problem with people expressing their thoughts on Scientology in general. There are valid arguments to be made. If I didn't feel it would just contribute to the massive amount of misinformation about the Church, I'd make some of those arguments myself.

Unfortunately, so many critics are not interested in the truth. They have a totally polarized viewpoint on the subject. It's similar to the anti-abortion/pro-choice debate in that way.

E.J. you have recently been asking for examples of OSA posts.
I won`t give you any specific posts, since I think it`s best to learn how to recognize them for your self, and I know better than to try to convince a person who puts his pride in twisting words and truth.

But here is a LINK

I know what you are saying, EJ, about some people just shutting down and not letting anything positive about Scientology in. That's because we are all individuals with opinions. But dear, dear EJ.....I have found, in my own experience, that the worst offenders for not letting anything in that goes against what they feel, are Scientologists themselves! And I count MYSELF in that mix, as I know how I felt when I was a Scientologist and a staff member. Nothing negative about Scn AT ALL could I confront, no matter how logical or substantiated.

Now that I am on the other side of the fence, my vision is much clearer, brighter, and more objective.

I guess we must agree to disagree.

Haarek, that's a really long thread. Ug. It's enough work to keep up on current events. I suppose what you're really saying by "it`s best to learn how to recognize them for yourself" is that you really don't have any proof that OSA posts here at all. You simply assume that they do.

I figured that someone had mentioned something in a court case or deposition at some point. Anyone aware of any *proof* that OSA monitors and posts to ARS or here?

E.J.: Once I learned that 2+2=4, I just shut my mind down and refused to consider any other possibilities. What's so wrong about that? When my relatives tell me what goes on (usually without intending for it to be important to me), I try to conceal my shock and dismay (to avoid being disconnected!), but when you, a complete stranger whose credibility I have no reason to trust, try to tell me that such things do NOT happen that my relatives have told me DO happen, YOU are going to be the one I shut my mind down on, not them. Sorry.

Hey, how to the rest of you feel, knowing that EJ has USED all of us for his little project? All that time wasted, when he COULD have been answering all our sincere questions!