EJ, none of us here are really interested in reaching common ground with you, because we're here to participate in "The Fight Against Scientology on the Net." The only reason we don't just summarily give you the troll treatment is that we hope you will eventually wake up.

I find it interesting that you stated, "In fact, unlike Christianity, "faith" is not asked for or required in Scientology." I don't think anyone would argue against the fact that Christianity is a faith, meaning religion. So, if no faith is required, could Scientology not be a religion?

Just because one doesn't get roach bites does not mean the buildings in Clearwater aren't crawling with them. There, the "systemic" clam issue is that there is no respect for the peons who have to live there, and money is spent instead for lawsuits and fair-gaming. Nevermind the fact that there are violations of health-department codes.

People who have no substantive defense for their ideas love to use the word "hate," when it's really just "disagreement." In our collective case, most of us have been there, done that, experienced the garbage that comes from LRH's pen, and finally realized it's all a lie, fraud, and scam. That doesn't mean we hate anyone personally. But "hate" seems to be the rottenest tomato you can find to toss at us. Nursery school tactics.

And faith IS required in Scientology! In spite of
seeing no evidence whatsoever, that OT powers exist,
or that moving up the bridge results in any greater
freedom, people still believe and still dump their
life's savings into it. If that's not blind faith,
then the television healers and Madam Cleo must also
be real. Feh...

Ten Tigers,

You are absolutely right that faith IS required to stay at it in scn, and your illustration of that is right on.

E.J.,

Do a really thorough word clearing of the scientology term "postulate" (you know, look up all the regular English words in the definition) and you will find that "postulate" means "belief" or "faith."

Oh, and, having any trouble "making your postulates stick?" Take another look -- those "postulates" ALWAYS stick -- the tricky task is getting them UN-stuck.

Ej, you crack me up when you call us clam-bakers "haters", and throw out alot of sarcasm and insults, and then end your post with "All the best"! I'm curious, did scientology teach you that if you ended your smarmy post with "all the best" that we would all automatically believe that that's what you mean? Cracks me up!

As Freeborn said, disagreement doesn't mean hate.
We can passionately hate the vicitimization that goes on within the cos, just as we can hate the crimes of the mafia. Doesn't make us haters-nope.
Makes us concerned citizens. And we are certainly concerned about the welfare of many who are suffering because of the cos.

You turn a blind eye to evidence and pretend this
stuff isn't happening. Then you come here, ostensibly to make us look bad to newcomers. I don't think this is working!

raised 11th

Thanks for replying, E.J.

Counterpoints: I personally do not lump public Scientologists with org staff, nor with SO, nor with the "inner circle" SO members that Tory witnessed committing crimes. I do say "CoS" as a shorthand when I say something like "CoS claims it is not a religion for schools but it IS a religion at tax time." Most people who work for CoS would "resemble" that remark. Yet when I talk about who's going to the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary, I specifically mention the inner circle around David Miscavige and his non-Scientologist lawyers. I have said that most org workers will likely not go to prison. Now since you and I both disagree with lumping people together, isn't Bernie at fault here to cast me and other critics as the equivalent of pro-kidnapping deprogammers?

About the "good little critics" being hidden in the last corner of the website - I agree that Andreas puts his links to pro-CoS sites near the bottom, too. The difference is that Andreas does not claim to be unbiased. He has opinions about CoS, and he states them. But Bernie's starting paragraphs trumpet her pure and balanced lack of bias. So her unfair treatment of the "good little critics" in the corner is hypocritical.

I talked about how a "cafeteria Scientologist" would equal a squirrel, because LRH specifically said his words and his approach were the final answer. You honestly would have to belong to Freezone or another religion (like Avatar) if you changed the tech.

I did not say typical Scientologists got cockroach bites. The cockroach bites I am talking about were on Lisa McPherson. There are ample photos and expert reports on this. Although Joan Woodward recanted the "death by dehydration" she did not recant the cockroach bites. Can you refute the cockroach bites? What is your theory of what caused them? I grant that most CoS members and staff don't die like Lisa. She was an unusual case, but she is not irrelevant. Are you afraid to discuss Lisa?

I reread my posts and the points I made were, frankly, NEW, because nobody else has specifically criticized Bernie. I was discussing her site paragraph by paragraph. You can't skim my posts saying in your head "nothing new...nothing new..." Some of my logic takes time to read carefully, because I am pointing out the flaws or inconsistencies in Bernie's paragraphs. It's not easy to read and consider each of my points fairly.

E.J. QUOTE: So, OC can stay the little Scientology hate group that it is. END QUOTE

Do you really think I am a member of a hate group?
I'm angry at how CoS ripped up my family. Others critics are angry, too. Anger is different than hate. Criticism is different than hate. Look them up in the dictionary.

Sure, there are some mean-spirited and hateful critics, but again, WHY do you lump us all together? Isn't that the mark of an "SP?"

And your phrase "little Scientology hate group" sounds quite contemptuous. Is that the new phrase that CoS uses to describe the OC message board? Nobody has called you a "little one-person Clambake hate group," and you'd be rightly insulted if they did. Don't trash us.

On Scientologists and Faith:

Yes, faith is a part of Scientology, but they don't use the word "faith." Instead, they call it "knowingness."

A Scientologists who sees rain out a window would not say he has a "knowingness" that it is raining. "Knowingness" is reserved for things like OT abilities.

Mike

In Moscow, there was an old guy named Rudolf. He
looked out the window and said to his wife, "Hey! It's
raining!"
His wife looked and said, "That's not rain! It's SNOW!"
He glanced at his wife and muttered, "Rudolf The Red
knows rain dear."

(ba-dum-bum!)

Pretty soon, that will be so old that it will stink.

So I guess if Faith Hill ever joined Scientology they'd make her change her name.

"Knowingness" Hill? Sounds like some kind of destination in a bad New Age novel (and that's a redundancy).

X9

What if someone's name was "Charity"?

They'd have to rename her "Out-Exchange."

QUOTE:
Scientology believes that one simply won’t get better by being given assistance without the flow being returned. They will feel ‘out exchange’ and will actually get worse.
END QUOTE From
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/scientology ... /cost.html

Anyone ever try putting "out-exchange" on his tax return?

Oh, I forgot. Clams don't earn enough to pay taxes.

I am not making this up:
A girl who went to Apple School and her Scientologist dad had the last name "Cocaine."

I have no idea how the family came to aqcuire this name, and I'm sure it made life interesting at times.

Mike

Well, Freeborn, I have been a Scn'ist for years, and in the church til about two or so years ago and I assure you, I've been paying taxes and filing tax returns every year since my 18th birthday.

Fluffygirl, you left out the most important part - is your income all from $cientology?