Physicists never talk about M.E.S.T. anymore

Media coverage related to the Church of Scientology.

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don_carlo
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Physicists never talk about M.E.S.T. anymore

Post by don_carlo » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:13 am

Last night Nova presented the first part of a TV version of The Elegant Universe which is about string theory and other recent physics ideas. What struck me was that nobody ever mentioned Matter Energy Space and Time, which Hubbard uses to describe the universe. What Brian Green talked about was three forces (The strong force, the weak force, and the electromagnetic force) in quantum mechanics, and how they need to be reconciled with gravity which is presently understood through Einstein's theory of relativity.

Nov. 2003 Scientific American has an interview with Brian Greene that describes some of the ideas on the TV program.

I bet that when Ron showed up for his first physics class in 1930, the teaching assistant wrote "Matter Energy Space Time" on the blackboard. Ron wrote the words down and started daydreaming about being a master of MEST, and never learned another single idea about physics (he flunked the class). Ron later found that he could impress anyone who had NOT taken physics, by saying "Matter Energy Space and Time" along with some know-it-all blather.

It is now 73 years later, and Ron's view of the universe is way out of date. Ron might have met the aging Einstein (of course he could not have "helped" him because Einstein wrote his theories IN GERMAN when Ron was a child in Montana). Ron certainly envied Einstein for his fame and the vast respect Einstein received. When I was a child, Einstein was the only physicist most people had ever heard of, and most people thought he had actually "settled" everything with E equals MC squared. When people taught about matter energy space and time in the 1930's, they were paying tribute to Einstein, whose theories STILL WORK at the planetary level. But physics is way past Einstein at the atomic-particle level. Hubbard pretended to be a physicist to try to grab some of Einstein's charisma. Then he said Scientology is "past physics" but that meant nothing in the 1950's and it means less than nothing in 2003. No physicist discusses Hubbard's ideas of engrams and BT's.

One interesting point on the TV program was repeated again and again: Nobody has yet found a way to prove string theory. Certainly there are skeptics in physics who won't accept an unprovable theory. Yet the mathematics in favor of string theory are impressive; the theory COULD work. The fact that many scientists are willing to put their careers on the line to get the string theory proven, shows that science is not always dismissive and negative toward new challenging ideas. Scientists are just dismissive toward ideas that DON'T WORK even on a theoretical basis.

zaphod
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Post by zaphod » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:35 am

Here is a list of all the Nobel Prize Laureates for Physics. Noticeably absent are Scientologists, hmmm, go figure. From http://www.nobel.se/physics/laureates/index.html

2003 Alexei A. Abrikosov, Vitaly L. Ginzburg, Anthony J. Leggett

2002 Raymond Davis Jr., Masatoshi Koshiba, Riccardo Giacconi

2001 Eric A. Cornell, Wolfgang Ketterle, Carl E. Wieman

2000 Zhores I. Alferov, Herbert Kroemer, Jack S. Kilby

1999 Gerardus 't Hooft, Martinus J.G. Veltman

1998 Robert B. Laughlin, Horst L. Störmer, Daniel C. Tsui

1997 Steven Chu, Claude Cohen-Tannoudji, William D. Phillips

1996 David M. Lee, Douglas D. Osheroff, Robert C. Richardson

1995 Martin L. Perl, Frederick Reines

1994 Bertram N. Brockhouse, Clifford G. Shull

1993 Russell A. Hulse, Joseph H. Taylor Jr.

1992 Georges Charpak

1991 Pierre-Gilles de Gennes

1990 Jerome I. Friedman, Henry W. Kendall, Richard E. Taylor

1989 Norman F. Ramsey, Hans G. Dehmelt, Wolfgang Paul

1988 Leon M. Lederman, Melvin Schwartz, Jack Steinberger

1987 J. Georg Bednorz, K. Alex Müller

1986 Ernst Ruska, Gerd Binnig, Heinrich Rohrer

1985 Klaus von Klitzing

1984 Carlo Rubbia, Simon van der Meer

1983 Subramanyan Chandrasekhar, William A. Fowler

1982 Kenneth G. Wilson

1981 Nicolaas Bloembergen, Arthur L. Schawlow, Kai M. Siegbahn

1980 James Cronin, Val Fitch

1979 Sheldon Glashow, Abdus Salam, Steven Weinberg

1978 Pyotr Kapitsa, Arno Penzias, Robert Woodrow Wilson

1977 Philip W. Anderson, Sir Nevill F. Mott, John H. van Vleck

1976 Burton Richter, Samuel C. C. Ting

1975 Aage N. Bohr, Ben R. Mottelson, James Rainwater

1974 Martin Ryle, Antony Hewish

1973 Leo Esaki, Ivar Giaever, Brian D. Josephson

1972 John Bardeen, Leon N. Cooper, Robert Schrieffer

1971 Dennis Gabor

1970 Hannes Alfvén, Louis Néel

1969 Murray Gell-Mann

1968 Luis Alvarez

1967 Hans Bethe

1966 Alfred Kastler

1965 Sin-Itiro Tomonaga, Julian Schwinger, Richard P. Feynman

1964 Charles H. Townes, Nicolay G. Basov, Aleksandr M. Prokhorov

1963 Eugene Wigner, Maria Goeppert-Mayer, J. Hans D. Jensen

1962 Lev Landau

1961 Robert Hofstadter, Rudolf Mössbauer

1960 Donald A. Glaser

1959 Emilio Segrè, Owen Chamberlain

1958 Pavel A. Cherenkov, Il´ja M. Frank, Igor Y. Tamm

1957 Chen Ning Yang, Tsung-Dao Lee

1956 William B. Shockley, John Bardeen, Walter H. Brattain

1955 Willis E. Lamb, Polykarp Kusch

1954 Max Born, Walther Bothe

1953 Frits Zernike

1952 Felix Bloch, E. M. Purcell

1951 John Cockcroft, Ernest T. S. Walton

1950 Cecil Powell

1949 Hideki Yukawa

1948 Patrick M. S. Blackett

1947 Edward V. Appleton

1946 Percy W. Bridgman

1945 Wolfgang Pauli

1944 Isidor Isaac Rabi

1943 Otto Stern

1942 The prize money was with 1/3 allocated to the Main Fund and with 2/3 to the Special Fund of this prize section

1941 The prize money was with 1/3 allocated to the Main Fund and with 2/3 to the Special Fund of this prize section

1940 The prize money was with 1/3 allocated to the Main Fund and with 2/3 to the Special Fund of this prize section

1939 Ernest Lawrence

1938 Enrico Fermi

1937 Clinton Davisson, George Paget Thomson

1936 Victor F. Hess, Carl D. Anderson

1935 James Chadwick

1934 The prize money was with 1/3 allocated to the Main Fund and with 2/3 to the Special Fund of this prize section

1933 Erwin Schrödinger, Paul A. M. Dirac

1932 Werner Heisenberg

1931 The prize money was allocated to the Special Fund of this prize section

1930 Venkata Raman

1929 Louis de Broglie

1928 Owen Willans Richardson

1927 Arthur H. Compton, C. T. R. Wilson

1926 Jean Baptiste Perrin

1925 James Franck, Gustav Hertz

1924 Manne Siegbahn

1923 Robert A. Millikan

1922 Niels Bohr

1921 Albert Einstein

1920 Charles Edouard Guillaume

1919 Johannes Stark

1918 Max Planck

1917 Charles Glover Barkla

1916 The prize money was allocated to the Special Fund of this prize section

1915 William Bragg, Lawrence Bragg

1914 Max von Laue

1913 Heike Kamerlingh Onnes

1912 Gustaf Dalén

1911 Wilhelm Wien

1910 Johannes Diderik van der Waals

1909 Guglielmo Marconi, Ferdinand Braun

1908 Gabriel Lippmann

1907 Albert A. Michelson

1906 J. J. Thomson

1905 Philipp Lenard

1904 Lord Rayleigh

1903 Henri Becquerel, Pierre Curie, Marie Curie

1902 Hendrik A. Lorentz, Pieter Zeeman

1901 Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen

jasonc
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Post by jasonc » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:54 am

Dammmm, I was meaning to watch that from weeks ago. Instead, I watched Smalleville and The Bachelor :(

don_carlo
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Post by don_carlo » Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:01 pm

The first episode airs again tonight (around 10 PM, check local schedule), and Nov. 4 and Nov. 6.
The second episode, Welcome to the 11th Dimension should be this Tuesday, on Nova's usual time.

jasonc
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Post by jasonc » Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:00 pm

Don, a few things. I read the link to Brian Greene. No comment

I wanted to let you know about someone else who would be great for the role of LRH, instead of Tom Green. Eric Stoltz.

I was watching the Miscavidge/Koppel interview on xenutv this morning. The older brother from the show, "Blossom" is a dead ringer for Miscavidge, I just realized.

Anyway, have you watched xenutv clips ever? I watched about 30 clips this morning, instead of listening to Howard, and then all of a sudden, the whole xenutv site changed format. It has moved/been removed, and now one needs a user name and password to enter.

Hopefully this doesn't mean that the site has been taken down, and it is just being updated, as happens to OCMB.

don_carlo
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Post by don_carlo » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:53 pm

If you do watch The Elegant Universe tonight on PBS, just imagine Scientologists watching it and saying, "Let's see what the Scientology website says about physics"

QUOTE: Despite its many successes, science has not provided answers to ...Who are we?...Where are we going? ...These questions have always been the province of philosophy and religion, but traditional answers became inadequate in the face of the H-bomb. Scientology, drawing on the same advances in knowledge that led to the understanding of nuclear physics, provides modern answers to these questions.END QUOTE from
CoS webpage.

Note the boldfaced phrase above: Scientology drew on the same advances...nuclear physics. Sorry Cos, but the preferred phrase in 2003 is Particle Physics. "Nuclear" relates more to the nucleus, and was a good way to describe research in fission and fusion of the atom. For example, "Nuclear Physics" was a hip and cool way to describe H-bomb Physics or Nuclear-Power Physics in the 1950's.

Today, however, physics is far beyond the electron, the proton, and the neutron. There are quarks, leptons, bosons, etc. So, although there are still books and people that use the term "nuclear" physics (especially when dealing with bombs and power plants), the top guns now call the cutting-edge work "particle physics."

CoS tried to wrap itself in the mantle of Einstein and the H-bomb, which ages the org back to the mid-20th Century, just like Hubbard's claim that "Scientology is a 20th Century religion." But if CoS claims that traditional answers are inadequate for the H-bomb world of 1950, then 1950 CoS ideas are inadequate for today.

(Jason, Here's a photo of Eric Stoltz, who'd have to stop exercising and add sixty pounds to play Hubbard. He has the red hair, but does he have the smirk?)

jasonc
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Post by jasonc » Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:50 am

Good points DC. Were these already discussed? It would be a good addition to Tory's Misconceptions or the Contradictions threads.


Your Eric Stoltz link did not work :(

don_carlo
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Post by don_carlo » Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:16 pm

Jason, I'd rather wait until there is a breakthrough in Physics that ordinary people TALK about, like solving the mystery of gravity. The Elegant Universe is like a recruiting film for young people to major in physics (or other people to pay taxes for physics research). The Theory of Everything is still undiscovered, and websites passionately discuss it in cool speculation. Just wait until it's PROVEN.

Eric Stoltz link at http://www.thespiannet.com/actors/S/sto ... ndex.shtml

jasonc
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Post by jasonc » Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:36 pm

DC, first, I'm sure you've seen at least a few E. Stoltz movies. That pic on that site does not do him justice. I consider, (maybe with slight prosthetics) that Stoltz looks more like a younk LRH more than any famous person.

True, about what ordinary people talk about regarding physics, etc. Not much about the string theories, etc that one can casually mention and expect much understanding.

You said "solving the mystery of gravity." (I haven't yet clicked the "cool speculation" link)
You suppose the physics behind gravity is a mystery? It makes sense to me, although, I suppose why it it so is still a mystery. Taking that into question, wouldn't magnets hold quite a similar mystery?

Well, I'll check out the "cool" link now...I'm sure it's fascinating since you bothered to link me to it. :)

P.S. "The Elegant Universe" did not air on PBS last night where I live unfortunately, and I get 2 PBS stations. I hope to watch it on the 4th or 6th. Physics was one of my favorite subjects, I took 2 years of it in high school. I find it strange that I never ended up in any college physics classes though ??? BOO ;)

don_carlo
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Post by don_carlo » Sat Nov 01, 2003 2:25 am

Newton calculated gravitational attraction, with the inverse-squared law, etc. Einstein showed how gravity is like a distortion of the fabric of space-time. Physicists know a lot about gravity. Among the remaining questions are:
How does the attraction travel across the near-vaccuum of space?
Is it waves?
Is it particles?
Or something not yet understood?
And how does it seem to be "instantaneous," rather than traveling at, say, the speed of light?

And what the heck is really happening in those black holes, anyway?

lucretiamacevil
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Post by lucretiamacevil » Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:43 pm

LOL, Don Carlo!

"Just wait until it's PROVEN."

The reason science has become a religious practice is that people who don't have a religious practice AREN'T WILLING TO WAIT THAT LONG!

This new thing disproves that old one, therefor THAT'S IT! Close the book on anything the new thing can't account for. And another hundred years has to go by before some new technical instrument

And that slows up science as a practical TOOL for human minds to use.

If we waited until something is proven to use it and test it and build whatever good things can be built with it, we'd all still be living in caves.

On the other hand, if we stake our reputations and image of self in faith that some new thing is the be-all and end-all, we are bound to be disappointed, at best.

I think the hardst thing for people to accept these days is that knowledge has outstripped the capacity for any one individual to know it all. Some react by demanding everyone admit s/he knows nothing and that nothing can be known. Others get over it, and get on with whatever turns them on and make the fullest possible contributions.

Most of us just hum along pursuing what makes us happy, and keep track of what those two groups are up to, reading newspapers and watching TV. ;)

Lucretia

don_carlo
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Post by don_carlo » Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:54 pm

Welcome to the 11th Dimension is on Nova tonight, for those who want to delve into true mysteries of physics. It's Part 2 of The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene. And it's okay if you missed Part 1.

Skeptics can have fun imagining other dimensions. Religious types can have fun watching scientists argue. Artsy types can have fun watching the cool art animation.

Nova is on Public Television in the U.S., but I bet BBC and others will air this series soon, too.

Notice that this physics program will never mention "Matter Energy Space and Time." Hubbard is SO out of date.

jasonc
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Post by jasonc » Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:10 pm

Fate rears it's ugly head again. Last night, I feel asleep on the couch about an hour before Elegant Universe Part 1 came on. At 8:05, I was awoken by my father's voice on my answering machine. I was so out of it from falling asleep and it's ensuing groggyness, that I did not want my yearly conversation with my father to happen then. So I didn't pick up the phone. I looked at my watch. Man, if he didn't call, I would have missed the show again, and had I not been asleep, I would have picked up the phone and talked to him, thus missing the show anyway.

I say this because I like to imagine that I am one of the ones who will solve the mystery of the Universe, and this show sparks it.

I cannot wait to hear what my father has to say. I wonder if he's been notified by OSA that I've been associating with "SPs" over the internet.

~atheist
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Post by ~atheist » Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:24 pm

Don I tried to watch it last night but the wife was watching something else in the bedroom so everytime a commercial came on she just had to tell me something. So I ended up missing chunks of it. Not to bad overall, understandable. I wonder how LRH would incorperate the loaf into his MEST idea?

don_carlo
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Post by don_carlo » Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:11 pm

On last night's show I never heard the phrase "nuclear physics" which CoS talks about in the Oct 30, 10:53 post above. Come to think of it, physicists studying fusion power call themselves plasma physicists, not nuclear physicists.

Maybe a teenager would be impressed by CoS talking about "nuclear physics" but, physicist grad students would just snicker. Has anyone ever known a physicist/Scientologist? I'd like to ask him about Hubbard's book All About Radiation.

QUOTE:

(Question) Page 73: "How is it that gamma rays go through walls but don't go through bodies?"

(Hubbard) "I can fortunately tell you what is happenning when a body gets hurt by atomic radiation. It RESISTS the rays! The wall doesn't resist the rays and the body does"

End quote from Skeptic Tank

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