LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Where off-topic, flames, etc are thrown.
User avatar
sekh
Posts: 821
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:02 am
Location: Netherlands

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by sekh » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:57 pm

Image
But he's a mean old OT, and he started it.... wiz hiz sooper powerz!

Only leveling the playing field, weren't you?

And wasn't this thread supposed to be about Nate Jackson?
"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Sir Karl Popper (1902 - 1994)

User avatar
Radio Paul
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:57 am

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by Radio Paul » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:47 pm

New Rules for protesting from whining bitches

No talking to:
The elderly
The young
The middle aged
(Insert excuse here)

No loud voices (might be scary)
No being silent (might freak people out)
No normal talking (you will be accused of trying to get info and violate someones privacy rights) "see WWP debate"

Don't protest alone (Stalking?)
Don't protest with to many people (Scary large groups)

I could go on???
This old fart attacked AGP just like other cult members have done in the past. They think they have a right to assault protester, this guys behavior is typical. If you watch the video AGP did not freak this guy out this guy, he annoyed him!

User avatar
Simonymous
Posts: 1155
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:48 am

Re: Spare me Sponge

Post by Simonymous » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:22 pm

AngryGayPope wrote:Obnoxious people like "AGP" who criticize everything, are not team players, who won't lead, follow or get out of the way.
FIFY.

I don't like insulting people, and I don't mean that as a cheap shot. It is most certainly true, AGP, everything you said about Sponge is true about you.

That said, from what we saw in the video, you didn't do anything to deserve that man grabbing at your camera like that. You shouldn't have kept at him, though, taunting, as it doesn't do anything but put you down to his level.

Also, I don't know if there was taunting BEFORE the video started; it starts at "Hi, are you a Scientologist?" GRAB. Was there taunting before that? I don't know. I won't assume there is, but from the way it sounded after I have to wonder. The question itself had a tinge of taunt to it.
“...the injuries that {Hubbard} handled by the use of Dianetics procedures were never handled, because they were injuries that never existed; therefore, Dianetics is based on a lie; therefore, Scientology is based on a lie.” --Tommy Davis

User avatar
duhast
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:12 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by duhast » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:52 pm

Just another observation....

There is a vid posted by Smurf where he talks to his handler, and it seems to me that they might even know each other. There are smiles, they exchange greetings, and they are downright pleasant to each other.

On a personal note, that is one of the things I struggle with, even though I have only protested once. I find myself thinking in terms of Scientologists as 'The Enemy' when in fact that's not necessarily true. Probably most rank-and-file are not 'Enemy', though I'm also sure there are exceptions.

I do not know many of the upper leadership, but I think it may be reversed up there, where most are 'Enemy'. Personally, there are three Scientologists that, God forgive me, I can say that I truly hate. David Miscavige, Moxon, and Danny Dunnigan. Sorry, that's just a character flaw on my part. It is my belief that they are monstrous, sociopathic, bullies. I'm sure there are more, I just don't know of them.

Nothing will make me happier than when I see them being perp-walked in chains, held without bail and thrown into genpop.
I'm worth a million in prizes.

User avatar
Smurf
Posts: 2679
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:10 am

Re: Spare me Sponge

Post by Smurf » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:53 pm

Simonymous wrote:I don't like insulting people, and I don't mean that as a cheap shot. It is most certainly true, AGP, everything you said about Sponge is true about you.

That said, from what we saw in the video, you didn't do anything to deserve that man grabbing at your camera like that. You shouldn't have kept at him, though, taunting, as it doesn't do anything but put you down to his level.

Also, I don't know if there was taunting BEFORE the video started; it starts at "Hi, are you a Scientologist?" GRAB. Was there taunting before that? I don't know. I won't assume there is, but from the way it sounded after I have to wonder. The question itself had a tinge of taunt to it.
Everyone has their own style of approaching people, including AGP, who wears a Guy Fawkes mask & mitre & approaches people with his camera pointing at them. He talks as he takes photos. Who knows what was going on in the mind of the old man? Maybe, he's full of piss & vinegar or maybe he felt angry & threatened being approached by a guy in a costume sticking a camera in his face...

If a Scientologist aggressively poked a camera in my face, I would have knocked the camera away, too. It's invading my personal space. That said, if the police had been called, and the elderly man filed a complaint, am afraid AGP would have been the one in handcuffs on his way to the pokey for harassing an elderly man, even if AGP didn't see the situation as that.

This incident, as well as AGP publicizing it, will probably be one more piece of evidence Scientology will put forward in his Delphi arrest trial. It's no secret that OSA-Legal monitors OCMB & WWP daily.

User avatar
sekh
Posts: 821
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:02 am
Location: Netherlands

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by sekh » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:02 pm

I did watch the video. I saw AGP walking up to an old man on a narrow sidewalk between a high fence and the street.
AGP, while approaching the guy up to arm's reach, and taking photographs:"Are you a scientologist?", in a nagging tone.
The guy tries to evade him, has nowhere to go and goes for the camera in an aggressive, definitely not nice way. Poor AGP.
He asks" Why did you do that, old man?" :angry9:

So far, so good. Had he stopped there, I could have agreed with AGP that the guy overreacted. But then the video continues:
The old fart (no, I don't like the guy either) walks around a red car, AGP goes, in the same aggravating tone: " Oow, you're a feisty one! You' re a feisty old man! Why did you reach out like that? That's not very nice! You should've used your OT powers on me,old man! Why didn't you use your OT powers, old man? Tsk, tsk, tsk!" or something like that. Meanwhile the old geezer just tries to get the hell out of Dodge, but the Pope keeps going after him.

That's not protesting, that's bull-baiting. Remember those Clerarwater video's with Crazy Mary "What's your Crime"? Same thing. It doesn't make our Pope look very sympathetic to the general public, but that tape would make Moxon get a hard-on.
First the pre-schoolers, now a senior citizen, aren't those protesters evil? :furious:

It doesn't do any good to AGP's image, and worse, it's damaging to the image of the Anti-Co$ protest movement. Any protest group needs the sympathy of the public. The public does not like Scientology, so it tends to agree with the protesters.

As long as they behave like decent human beings. Which means you leave little children and really old people alone. That's all it takes. I've said it before, I admire AGP for his guts and his endurance, but sometimes I doubt the wisdom of his judgement. To my opinion he made a mistake here. Harassing an old man who is just minding his own business doesn't make a good impression on the audience, and is useless in the effort of bringing down scientology. There are other ways.

Let's hope the LA Times missed this little enturbulation. (I never thought I would find a reason to use that word, but here it is fitting.)
Sekh
Last edited by sekh on Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Sir Karl Popper (1902 - 1994)

User avatar
Smurf
Posts: 2679
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:10 am

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by Smurf » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:05 pm

duhast wrote:Just another observation....

There is a vid posted by Smurf where he talks to his handler, and it seems to me that they might even know each other. There are smiles, they exchange greetings, and they are downright pleasant to each other.

On a personal note, that is one of the things I struggle with, even though I have only protested once. I find myself thinking in terms of Scientologists as 'The Enemy' when in fact that's not necessarily true. Probably most rank-and-file are not 'Enemy', though I'm also sure there are exceptions.
We're all human beings, duhast, regardless of what wacky beliefs we might hold. I get alot of crap from extremist critics who sees the world in purely black and white terms.. you're either a friend or the enemy. Many Scientologists have awakened to the reality of their situation in the cult over the years and have blown the cult. Some of them regularly post on the boards and some have written books about their experiences. And they hold onto their memories... they remember the critics that were kind & informative to them when they were in the cult, and have even thanked them for helping them to see the light. They also remember the mean-spirited critics whom they want nothing to do with.

I am ex-Scio and know many people still in the cult who are good, well-meaning individuals with big hearts. They don't grow them when they leave the cult. I give them the respect and kindness that I enjoy getting from others.

User avatar
skeptic2girl
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:14 am

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by skeptic2girl » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:09 pm

duhast wrote:Just another observation....

There is a vid posted by Smurf where he talks to his handler, and it seems to me that they might even know each other. There are smiles, they exchange greetings, and they are downright pleasant to each other.

On a personal note, that is one of the things I struggle with, even though I have only protested once. I find myself thinking in terms of Scientologists as 'The Enemy' when in fact that's not necessarily true. Probably most rank-and-file are not 'Enemy', though I'm also sure there are exceptions.

I do not know many of the upper leadership, but I think it may be reversed up there, where most are 'Enemy'. Personally, there are three Scientologists that, God forgive me, I can say that I truly hate. David Miscavige, Moxon, and Danny Dunnigan. Sorry, that's just a character flaw on my part. It is my belief that they are monstrous, sociopathic, bullies. I'm sure there are more, I just don't know of them.

Nothing will make me happier than when I see them being perp-walked in chains, held without bail and thrown into genpop.
As I was looking for flier content for protests I found this, and thought it was apropos to the content of this thread.

I'm including the link...

(I added boldface and font size changes to certain parts)
http://www.scientology-lies.com/fliers/advisory.pdf

A plea for compassion and control
excerpted from a post by Mark W. Heaney, 06 Sep 1995


I wanted to remind everyone just before the protests begin, that
the average Scientologist
is NOT THE ENEMY.The people you run into at the orgs
WILL feel hurt by the presence of picketers outside. They WILL feel persecuted, and if we
let the people running the orgs twist around what we are doing, it will tighten the hold
that the "Church" has on it's victims.
We must remember to keep a glove on the fist.
Therefore I implore on bended knee for everyone to try to follow some simple guidelines:

1.Do not start confrontations with Scientologists walking into and out of the orgs. They
have every right to visit their "Church" without being hassled.
If they wish to make
conversation, then converse in a friendly manner. If they initiate a confrontation then
they should be confronted with facts and documentation. If possible, do not let them goad
you into anger, be prepared to 'hand off' a "Church" official who is getting to you to a
calmer fellow protester. Don't be concerned with "winning" the meeting or you are sunk.

2.Most of the people going into and out of the orgs will be vulnerable people looking for
help, if you can, offer it in as supportive a manner as possible. Things to do include refer
them to publicly available counseling, books that will help them understand what is
being done to them, and their families.

3.You will be able to tell the "Professional" Scientologists easily. They will be the ones
'hatted' to interact with the protesters. Allow them to make examples of themselves, don't
let them make bad examples of you.
Remember, they are "Clears" or higher, let them dig
their own graves, PR-wise.
If you can, find out if they are Mission-holders or FSMs and
remember if they are, this is their bread and butter, convince then that it won't last and
they will blow.

4.Control your anger. Many people have been building up rage against the "Church" since
the raid began. We are all looking to "strike a blow" in retaliation. Think long, and think
hard about what your motive for being at the protest is. Don't let anger make you a
violent-seeming "suppressive" or you will be reinforcing the "Church"'s strangle-hold on
its members.

5.Keep a calm head, a friendly smile, and a helping hand out to the Scientologist looking
for a way out and you will be offering an example of good people showing a concern
over the management of the "Church" of Scientology. It will be hard for the average
Scientologist to ignore happy, healthy, helpful people who are against the "Church".


6.Do not attack people's beliefs. No matter how much documentation you have you will
not convince them. If you feel like educating low-level Scientologists about Xenu, that's
fine. If you want to use info from the OT levels to explain the beliefs of the "Church" to
passers-by, OK. Don't expect to convince anyone that what they have already
"experienced" is false, that's something they must learn for themselves.

Now, I apologize if I seem to be heavy-handed in my advice, but I want everyone all
around the world who will be in the protests to accomplish the most good for the greatest
number of PEOPLE, including NORMAL PEOPLE who have been TEMPORARILY
duped by the coercive machine of the "Church" of Scientology.
"The truth is out there."

User avatar
duhast
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:12 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by duhast » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:12 am

Smurf wrote: We're all human beings, duhast, regardless of what wacky beliefs we might hold. I get alot of crap from extremist critics who sees the world in purely black and white terms.. you're either a friend or the enemy. Many Scientologists have awakened to the reality of their situation in the cult over the years and have blown the cult. Some of them regularly post on the boards and some have written books about their experiences. And they hold onto their memories... they remember the critics that were kind & informative to them when they were in the cult, and have even thanked them for helping them to see the light. They also remember the mean-spirited critics whom they want nothing to do with.

I am ex-Scio and know many people still in the cult who are good, well-meaning individuals with big hearts. They don't grow them when they leave the cult. I give them the respect and kindness that I enjoy getting from others.

And that's the struggle I have. It is my natural character to go into 'warrior' mode, but I totally hear you and your POV. For me, it is a struggle. I know that one could even make the same argument about DM, KM, and DD, and that is the absolute hardest part for me, I have very little/no love/forgiveness for bullies, and I don't think God triumphs over Satan in the end by loving him into the Kingdom. However, ultimately that is not our personal battle, it's His, and we are given other commands, like "love your enemies."

I'm just confessing that for me oftentimes it is very very hard.
I'm worth a million in prizes.

User avatar
duhast
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:12 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by duhast » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:17 am

One thing I thought of the other day that I would like clarification on.....concerning deelishus caek.

It is my impression that originally, 'caek', though probably a joke, was used as an enticement to Scientologists to leave...leave and you can have some caek.

After reading a few of the recent World reports, it seems that caek has become more of a post-game snack/ritual rather than 'bait'.

Could someone clarify?
I'm worth a million in prizes.

ordinarycitizen
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:19 pm

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by ordinarycitizen » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:25 am

duhast wrote:One thing I thought of the other day that I would like clarification on.....concerning deelishus caek.

It is my impression that originally, 'caek', though probably a joke, was used as an enticement to Scientologists to leave...leave and you can have some caek.

After reading a few of the recent World reports, it seems that caek has become more of a post-game snack/ritual rather than 'bait'.

Could someone clarify?
I believe it's a reference to the cake in Portal: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-cake-is-a-lie--5 The excerpt from Urban Dictionary will make the relevance clear.

I still have to beat the last level. :/

Edited to add: Perhaps not a direct reference to Portal cake ... more of a descendant, or a distant relative.

User avatar
Wieber
Posts: 10248
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by Wieber » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:03 am

While I was a staff member for scientology out in the street selling books, handing out tickets and body routing over time I had been kneed in the groin, punched in the face (three stitches without anesthetic), punched, kicked and yelled at a lot. With all that going on I stayed in. I am probably not unique as a scientologist receiving that treatment from an assortment of people who are out there who don't like scientology. If that old man has been in scientology for any length of time then he's most likely experienced similar things. So yeah, I can see what would make him feisty.

Here's a bit of a paradox for you. Just about everyone in scientology is a victim of scientology, while at the same time they are perpetrators of L. Ron Hubbard's confidence game that is scientology. At the same time most of them do not think of themselves as victims and they really and truly think that what they are doing in scientology is the best thing that they could possibly do for themselves and the rest of the world. (That's one of the reasons they tolerate so much abuse from others who are in scientology who in turn also tolerate abuse.)

Most of us who have been in and who are now out more or less understand that point of view because we've had it. When people are out protesting they will do what they will do, but it might help a bit if you kept this stuff in mind while you're doing it.
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

Image

User avatar
Gnu
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:22 am

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by Gnu » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:04 am

Radio Paul wrote:New Rules for protesting from whining bitches

No talking to:
The elderly
The young
The middle aged
(Insert excuse here)
Strawmen arguments. No one ever discussed not talking to various people.
The aggressiveness/taunting has been discussed though, as well as the usefulness of this tactic in the long run.

No loud voices (might be scary)
No being silent (might freak people out)
No normal talking (you will be accused of trying to get info and violate someones privacy rights) "see WWP debate"
Strawman, etc...
Loud voices are frequent at protests. Sometimes there in an issue with noise complaints, but at major protests I have attended, the cops usually did not make a big issue of it. Amplified sound was usually not allowed. And there are people who are not scientologists living on L Ron Hubbard Way as well.
But loud voices are in fact used. Most negative opinion expressed here are about the content of the speech rather than the volume.
I don't know where the no being silent/no normal talking came from. Links please.

Don't protest alone (Stalking?)
This recommendation is for the benefit of the protester. There is safety in numbers and a better ability to film an encounter should the lone protester be attacked or have his camera disabled.


Don't protest with to many people (Scary large groups)
Again, strawman. No one says this. Large groups are great.



I could go on???
This old fart attacked AGP just like other cult members have done in the past. They think they have a right to assault protester, this guys behavior is typical. If you watch the video AGP did not freak this guy out this guy, he annoyed him!

You are letting your affection for AGP cloud you objectivity, IMO.
"Wisdom comes by disillusionment."
George Santayana

User avatar
Gnu
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:22 am

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by Gnu » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:08 am

duhast wrote:Personally, there are three Scientologists that, God forgive me, I can say that I truly hate. David Miscavige, Moxon, and Danny Dunnigan. Sorry, that's just a character flaw on my part. It is my belief that they are monstrous, sociopathic, bullies. I'm sure there are more, I just don't know of them.

I have never met Miscavige or Dunnigan. But have gotten up close to Moxon. I felt "evil" for a lack of a better term exude from him.
"Wisdom comes by disillusionment."
George Santayana

ordinarycitizen
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:19 pm

Re: LA Times reporter Nate Jackson interviews protesters

Post by ordinarycitizen » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:15 am

Wieber wrote: Here's a bit of a paradox for you. Just about everyone in scientology is a victim of scientology, while at the same time they are perpetrators of L. Ron Hubbard's confidence game that is scientology. At the same time most of them do not think of themselves as victims and they really and truly think that what they are doing in scientology is the best thing that they could possibly do for themselves and the rest of the world. (That's one of the reasons they tolerate so much abuse from others who are in scientology who in turn also tolerate abuse.)
It sounds like Stockholm Syndrome.

I was waiting at a train station once when a pair of JWs approached me. I politely told them "No, thank you" and they moved on. A couple of minutes later one of them came back and thanked me for speaking to them politely.

In my experience civility is far more effective than aggression.

Locked

Return to “Dustbin”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest