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Share your personal experiences with others. We're not here to judge or criticise, but to share and support.

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Ball of Fluff
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Post by Ball of Fluff » Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:06 am

Yes, Lt. I do. In fact I know so. You've railed and inveighed against my having any interest in Scn and you've been doing it for years. You've been admonished by the moderator, you've apologized, then restarted the same behavior. Again and again and again.

So, yeah. No way would I or anyone who reads those posts think that you are ok with anyone believing differently from yourself on this.

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I'mglib
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Post by I'mglib » Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:25 am

Hi, Jonny,
Good for you for questioning things and doing your research. If you present this info to anyone in COS they will say, "It's all lies." Guaranteed.

Anyway, I know you're overloaded, and you've gotten some great input from experienced people. I just have one little suggestion from an outsider who's surfed around a lot: Go check out Lisamcpherson.org and look at the autopsy photos. I know it sounds morbid, but seeing the cockroach bites on her hands is enough to never want to go anywhere near an organization that would allow that to happen to a human being on their watch, and then deny/harrass/lie/etc about it.

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Post by exscnmem » Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:33 am

Jonny,

If you confront the church, if there's "good"ethics officer there, here's what will happen:

You'll be asked how much you've read - just the message boards, or other pages on the site - they'd have to find out the information that you've already gotten.
They'll give you a list of the "crimes" that Andreas (the creator of this site) has committed. Ask him about them, he'll tell you.
If you've mostly only read the message boards, they'll tell you that - "what do you really know about people on the internet?" "Anybody can pretend to be anybody" and that you never know who's posting.
If you have names of people you remember posting, they'll tell you that either: 1) they've never been in Scientology, or 2) they've committed "crimes" against Scientology. If you don't believe them, they'll have a list (of the "crimes"), show an SP declare, or tell you (verbal data) of the problems with "these people". One way to do that would be to explain how some people got ahold of part of the confidential data in the OT levels, but not all, so they went "crazy" with the overt (reading the OT level before the right time), or with the data (they weren't ready for the data)

If you've read more than message boards - they'll give you Dead Agent material on what you've read.

They'll reg you REALLY hard for the PTS/SP course (you've said they already wanted you to take it). They'll also reg you for the PTS rundown (auditing).

If you don't buy the auditing, they'll give you an ethics program - which would include an O/W writeup (why were you visiting this site, anyway?) and if they still do End Ruds (I don't know how many times LRH's O/W WriteUp HCOPL has been changed), they'll probably turn it into a Sec Check.

If you have a "bad" ethics officer - they'll either drop you, or give you ultimatums.

I hope you read this. I was handled this way when the Time Magazine article came out, and I handled others when I was the EO.

Good luck.

exscnmem

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Post by lermanet_com » Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:51 pm

Dear Jonny,


You are getting good advice in this thread.


I have found that the hardest thing to get a current believer to do is to do what you are doing right now.


LOOK


compare that, to the following summations, based on mine and others efforts to deconstruct what the hell happened to us to get us into scientology.


Conspiracy for Silence
http://www.lermanet.com/silence.htm

Scientology Matrix
http://www.lermanet.com/exit/scientologymatrix.htm

Ten steps out of Scientology
http://www.lermanet.com/cos/8steps.html


Arnie Lerma
Clear 3502
tel 703 241 1498
Do you THINK scientology works?
Then read [url=http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=20255&start=285]THIS PAGE[/url] here on XENU.NET

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Shmoodles
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Post by Shmoodles » Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:20 pm

Ball of Fluff wrote:Yes, Lt. I do. In fact I know so. You've railed and inveighed against my having any interest in Scn and you've been doing it for years. You've been admonished by the moderator, you've apologized, then restarted the same behavior. Again and again and again.
So, yeah. No way would I or anyone who reads those posts think that you are ok with anyone believing differently from yourself on this.
I am somewhat intrigued by this interaction.
Let's say this wasn't Operation Clambake.
Instead it was "Operation Nazi toast"

Recast the people/players on this board in those terms. On the one hand there are people who are writing (to use the analogy) about the horrors that have occured in their lives due to the Nazis. Some of them write about the holocaust, and how evil it was.

Now, occasionally somebody shows up, who, knowing that this board is filled with people who are absolutley livid about the atrocities and abuses commited against them and their family by the Nazis, trys to post that Naziism is not in and of itself a bad thing. That indeed, they themselves are a Nazi, they just didn't agree with the worst aspects of Nazi policy, like for example the death camps.

Further, they try to claim that some people who believed in National Socialism, as explained by L Ron Hitler, perhaps have gotten out of hand, and done some bad things... but that the problem is not with the philosophy of Nazi'ism per-say, but that some bad people have just ruined the Nazi idea.

And look, Ball of Fluff, I am not calling you a Nazi, nor am I calling Scientology a Nazi organization. I'm trying to get you to put yourself into the headspace of those people who are offended just at the sight of a Nazi.

Whether you realize it or not, when you come around talking about being a Scientologist, I expect that your very prescence for some of these people is bound to make them feel upset, angry or suspicious.

It would be very much like a former Nazi Party Member showing up at the Simon Weisenthal Center, and trying to claim "that it's just terribly mean of Jewish People to want to criticize and attack National Socialism. Naziism is just simply misunderstood"

I have also yet to see ANY of the Scientologists who still try to float the "Scientology does work" line, give anything in the way of proof or examples of WHAT it is exactly the Scientology does that's so great.

I'm sorry, but when it comes down to who I feel empathy for... I simply can't muster any for somebody who knows exactly where it is they are posting, and, based on the fact that they've been here for years and years and years, must have read the horrendous things that Scientology has done to them and their family and friends, and still acts as if people being offended that you defend Scientology, is somehow out of line.

It's an act of provocation in my view.

Maybe that's not your intent. But, I'll tell you what. If I was at a Senior Citizens home for elderly Jewish people who had survived the holocaust, and some Skinhead with a Swastika tattooed to his arm, and wearing a Nazi Uniform showed up and said "Hey... I just want to hang out with you old guys, and maybe tell you how unfair it is to judge us Nazis just because Hitler was an evil madman, and just because we killed people... you've got it all wrong. We aren't that bad. There are some good things about National Socialism... but your blind hatred won't let you see it"

I would kick that person out on their ass.
But that's just me, and my own idea of morality.
I don't believe in letting people add on-going insult to injury.

My sympathy therfore is not with the Scientologists who are desperately clinging to their belief in the "tech", for whatever reason... But for people who have been severely harmed and damaged by those who peddle the tech, and those who swindled them out of thousands of dollars by peddling the tech.

My question for you Ball of Fluff is... if what you have seen of the damages that Scientology has done to people isn't enough to convince you that it's a fraud, that it's dangerous, that there are severe problems with it.... WHAT would it take?

In that sense, I would turn the The accusation of "blind hatred" around and ask about "Willful blind ignorance" on the subject of the harms that Scientology and it's "tech" have committed against people.

I mean... does there need to be another Jonestown or Manson Family Murder, to decide that you can't in good conscious sanction Scientology?

And I am not trying to turn this into a fight.
I really and truly don't understand why this message board would be a place where somebody who believes in "the tech" would come to promote the tech... considering who most of the participants are.

I think that's why people continue to badger you or hammer you on this issue. From my POV, If I see somebody doing something that doesn't make sense... I have to ask myself, "Why do they do this? What purpose does this serve?"

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D-Rad
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Post by D-Rad » Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:00 am

Excellent analogy Shmoodles, I believe you summed it up perfectly :yes!:
"Please let me point out to any new people that
one of the Targets of OSA is to:

1) DISTRACT anyone OFF of the topic of
Scientology onto ~anything~ else at all. "
- Magoo

Freedom from religion: www.deism.com

jonny
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Post by jonny » Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:49 am

Ok, I'm getting so much info, and I've read a lot. I'm not one for reading personal stories of anguish though, because it really takes me back. I might eventually get to them.

Here's another question. I can look around the org and realize that staff members can't afford a cup of coffee, but the public I've made friends with are very wealthy people, they claim it's all from Scientology, also I've been invited to multiple "money" seminars, which are free. I've always thought that members were very well off, financially. What's the deal with that??? I must admit, that I'm giving you guys the first opportunity to respond, because I won't visit the org for another couple of weeks..... at least..... to get their side of the story.

While I'm at it, I have to ask.... what about the celebrities??? Not Cruise, because that might start a war, but what about Travolta, Elfman, Ribisi, Alley, Presley and on and on. I was very impressed that they have no scandals in their live's. Nothing!!! They seem so in control of things. Once again, all the responses are greatly appreciated, but I'm not joining you guys, or going to promote Scientology at this point. I just don't know what to think?????

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:04 am

Shmoodles wrote:
Ball of Fluff wrote:Yes, Lt. I do. In fact I know so. You've railed and inveighed against my having any interest in Scn and you've been doing it for years. You've been admonished by the moderator, you've apologized, then restarted the same behavior. Again and again and again.
So, yeah. No way would I or anyone who reads those posts think that you are ok with anyone believing differently from yourself on this.
I am somewhat intrigued by this interaction.
Let's say this wasn't Operation Clambake.
Instead it was "Operation Nazi toast"

Recast the people/players on this board in those terms. On the one hand there are people who are writing (to use the analogy) about the horrors that have occured in their lives due to the Nazis. Some of them write about the holocaust, and how evil it was.

Now, occasionally somebody shows up, who, knowing that this board is filled with people who are absolutley livid about the atrocities and abuses commited against them and their family by the Nazis, trys to post that Naziism is not in and of itself a bad thing. That indeed, they themselves are a Nazi, they just didn't agree with the worst aspects of Nazi policy, like for example the death camps.

Further, they try to claim that some people who believed in National Socialism, as explained by L Ron Hitler, perhaps have gotten out of hand, and done some bad things... but that the problem is not with the philosophy of Nazi'ism per-say, but that some bad people have just ruined the Nazi idea.

And look, Ball of Fluff, I am not calling you a Nazi, nor am I calling Scientology a Nazi organization. I'm trying to get you to put yourself into the headspace of those people who are offended just at the sight of a Nazi.

Whether you realize it or not, when you come around talking about being a Scientologist, I expect that your very prescence for some of these people is bound to make them feel upset, angry or suspicious.

It would be very much like a former Nazi Party Member showing up at the Simon Weisenthal Center, and trying to claim "that it's just terribly mean of Jewish People to want to criticize and attack National Socialism. Naziism is just simply misunderstood"

I have also yet to see ANY of the Scientologists who still try to float the "Scientology does work" line, give anything in the way of proof or examples of WHAT it is exactly the Scientology does that's so great.

I'm sorry, but when it comes down to who I feel empathy for... I simply can't muster any for somebody who knows exactly where it is they are posting, and, based on the fact that they've been here for years and years and years, must have read the horrendous things that Scientology has done to them and their family and friends, and still acts as if people being offended that you defend Scientology, is somehow out of line.

It's an act of provocation in my view.

Maybe that's not your intent. But, I'll tell you what. If I was at a Senior Citizens home for elderly Jewish people who had survived the holocaust, and some Skinhead with a Swastika tattooed to his arm, and wearing a Nazi Uniform showed up and said "Hey... I just want to hang out with you old guys, and maybe tell you how unfair it is to judge us Nazis just because Hitler was an evil madman, and just because we killed people... you've got it all wrong. We aren't that bad. There are some good things about National Socialism... but your blind hatred won't let you see it"

I would kick that person out on their ass.
But that's just me, and my own idea of morality.
I don't believe in letting people add on-going insult to injury.

My sympathy therfore is not with the Scientologists who are desperately clinging to their belief in the "tech", for whatever reason... But for people who have been severely harmed and damaged by those who peddle the tech, and those who swindled them out of thousands of dollars by peddling the tech.

My question for you Ball of Fluff is... if what you have seen of the damages that Scientology has done to people isn't enough to convince you that it's a fraud, that it's dangerous, that there are severe problems with it.... WHAT would it take?

In that sense, I would turn the The accusation of "blind hatred" around and ask about "Willful blind ignorance" on the subject of the harms that Scientology and it's "tech" have committed against people.

I mean... does there need to be another Jonestown or Manson Family Murder, to decide that you can't in good conscious sanction Scientology?

And I am not trying to turn this into a fight.
I really and truly don't understand why this message board would be a place where somebody who believes in "the tech" would come to promote the tech... considering who most of the participants are.

I think that's why people continue to badger you or hammer you on this issue. From my POV, If I see somebody doing something that doesn't make sense... I have to ask myself, "Why do they do this? What purpose does this serve?"
1) I am mainly interested in criticizing CofS here. I do not post "wins" or "testimonials" so your Godwin's law analogy is totally specious. I do identify myself as an indie Scn'ist because I am truthful and I'm not about to lie to people about who I am. And that's as far as it goes. As I said, I don't post wins or testimonials. (I also find your Nazi/Godwin's law analogy to be insulting as well as completely inapropos) Other people bring this stuff up about me. I do not proselytize or post wins.

2) I don't sanction CofS. I do not believe it is a viable organization. At all.

I criticized it on the radio in June and have recently also talked -critically- to a couple other reporters, granting one a print interview.

So there you go.

You've defended the indefensible and I've now countered with all the facts you either left out on purpose or of which you were unaware.

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:06 am

D-Rad wrote:Excellent analogy Shmoodles, I believe you summed it up perfectly :yes!:
No, he didn't, actually. And I've just disproved it.

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:20 am

Jonny,

There are a few types of CofS members.

A) Staff members. On staff at "Missions", "Orgs" and in the "Sea Org".

They almost always have very little money. Mission and Org staff members, most of them, work an outside job since they generally don't even get a tenth of minimum wage at their CofS staff job. They are harried, overworked, and don't have a lot. They prolly could afford a cup of coffee as long as it was drip and not a latte. :wink:

B) Public. These are individual who just take courses and get auditing in CofS.

There are some wealthy public. I've seen them. People at Flag, dripping in diamonds, shelling out tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and paying for the highly overpriced accomodations there.

Most public are generally not so wealthy. I do know of a couple heirs to fortunes who spend all their extra income on Scn, including some that they'll never get back 'cuz it's donated to help the church and not just for auditing or whatever. Most, though, are working stiffs.

CofS often ruthlessly goes after inheritances if they know the person is getting one. They talk people into quitting their jobs and joining staff, then the person really doesn't have much money.

I used to know a lady who had a modest monthly stipend from a trust fund. She used to use it just to do Scn and just take a little job somewhere here and there when she needed to.

Most church members tend to have their own businesses because then they can set their own hours and take off for training, etc, if CofS wants them to or if they want to.

I am atypical in this regard, I've always worked for NON Scn corporations, and, indeed, made many of my friends there. Gave me a nice extra perspective when I was in CofS, one that I retain to this day.

But most Scn'ists I know are self employed. With a sprinkling of people like me.

Most church members I know who are public devote most of their "discretionary income" to CofS. The problem is that CofS' idea of discretionary income and the by the book definition of that phrase are two different things.

If a church member doesn't have the money to buy a course or auditing he either wants OR someone at CofS thinks he should have, he is urged repeatedly to put some on account. Like a layaway. It's called "AP".

(advance pmt)

In addition, there's membership dues. Yes, you heard me. On top of these high course fees, are high dues. Yearly it's 450.00 and is 4k for a lifetime. It confers some discounts but, IMO, 10 to 15% off of a high high price still leaves ya with a lot to pay.

I'm telling you this because there are a lot of people who had decent jobs or small inheritances, savings, etc, who ended up giving it all to CofS.

In addition, right now on another forum some buddies and I are discussing this:

Sometimes a person coughs up a whole bunch of money to do auditing or training at Flag (CofS Mecca/Corp Headquarters) goes all the way down there (clearwater, FL) and is then told he can't do the services 'cuz he didn't prove his loyalty or something like this, something in his history, what have you. CofS does NOT allow ap funds to be transferred from a "higher org" (like "flag") to a "lower org" or "mission".

A couple of these people ended up just donating the money. We're talking tens to hundreds of thousands here.

My husband and I were just talking about this. It's fraud, plain and simple.

Scn'ists can,if they like, study Scn outside CofS. Independently or with non CofS Scn'ists. The cost isn't even a tenth as much. And this other stuff doesn't go on,either. But if they do, they are hounded by CofS.

Well, unless they're expelled like me. But,in general, a CofS member who studies Scn with a "FreeZone" practitioner gets in SERIOUS "ethics trouble".

If the guy says "oh, I'm just studying it out of books, no need to come in to the org" then they see a source of income drying up and they pressure him to come in to the "Org" and buy courses and auditing.

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Post by D-Rad » Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:57 am

Ball of Fluff wrote:...No, he didn't, actually. And I've just disproved it.
He explained why some people feel the way they do about Non-Church Scientologists here so yes he did :yes!: The Cult is every bit as dangerous as the Nazis were and I know for a fact the tech is all bullshit and there are people here with many more years in the Co$ then you and I combined that will tell you the same thing. If you want to sell that bullshit in the Freezone then that's your business but it doesn't make you any better then the Cult, apples and apples :pottytrain:
"Please let me point out to any new people that
one of the Targets of OSA is to:

1) DISTRACT anyone OFF of the topic of
Scientology onto ~anything~ else at all. "
- Magoo

Freedom from religion: www.deism.com

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merlin
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Post by merlin » Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:22 am

Ball of Fluff observed:
It's fraud, plain and simple.
Jonny, there you have it - a sincere Scientologist telling you the plain and simple, unvarnished truth about the "Church of Scientology". She doesn't consider herself a victim so she doesn't have an axe to grind. She sees how things are in this "church" you find so intriguing, and she describes what she sees.

So, when you go in the "org" and hobnob with the rich people there and they tell you "it's all because of Scientology", you believe them? It takes money to make money. Ask them how they got the money they started with...

And those celebrities who dazzle you with their Scientology success stories... who have "no scandals in their live's. Nothing!!!"...

...no scandals that you know about, that is...

Jonny, this entire website and message board is a response to your questions. We haven't asked you to "join" us, and we're not telling you what to think. We want you to think for yourself. That's the whole point of this discussion.

So, go back to the org and "get their side of the story". See what they tell you, and what they want.

If then you still don't know what to think, you are probably just what they are looking for: someone who wants nothing more than to be told what to think.

But really, I doubt you are such a person, because you have come here to enquire. That took curiosity and courage. Those qualities are not enough to save one from folly; indeed they often lead one into exploring regions where angels fear to tread, but coupled with the ability to recognise fraud and the bullshitters who practise and promote it, they'll take you far toward right education, right thinking, and eventually real total freedom.

Good luck, Jonny.

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:26 am

D-Rad wrote:
Ball of Fluff wrote:...No, he didn't, actually. And I've just disproved it.
He explained why some people feel the way they do about Non-Church Scientologists here so yes he did :yes!: The Cult is every bit as dangerous as the Nazis were and I know for a fact the tech is all bullshit and there are people here with many more years in the Co$ then you and I combined that will tell you the same thing. If you want to sell that bullshit in the Freezone then that's your business but it doesn't make you any better then the Cult, apples and apples :pottytrain:
I don't sell anything.

I am interested in discussing Scn and CofS critically. Which I do. On the radio, in print media and on discussion forums.

I happen to disclose my personal affiliation in interests of honesty just as I disclose my name, geographical location, and profession. This is not an invitation for others to pry nor does it constitute proslytizing since I don't, in fact, proselytize.

I obviously am "better than the church" since I don't have any organizations, freeloader debts, staff contracts, coerced abortions, I don't solicit funds from anyone. But then again, it's neither here nor there. You weren't asked if another contributor's life meets with your approval. It's flat out none of your business. I'm here to discuss CofS and Hubbard as a critic and to discuss Scn ideas from a third person standpoint only.

I am a whistle blower re CofS, so again, that makes me better than they. When's the last time you were on the radio about the abuses of CofS? With me,it was recently. And that's not the only media I've been dealing with on a recent basis.

My original reply to Ltricha was NOT a question. It was an answer. Yes,he does hate and resent Scn'ists for what they believe. He says he doesn't. I replied in the negative and I said why. You've gone in and then justified and/or explained it, further supporting MY reply to him. I didn't ask anybody WHY. I already know why.

And it's quite stupid since I don't bring up wins or testimonials here and do not proselytize.

So you want to not like the FZ, go right ahead. I really don't care. Post many things about that. Fine with me. I'm with Voltaire on that.

But if I'm on a public forum posting about the abuses of CofS, then I expect you to shut up about MY personal choices when I did NOT bring them up for discussion and am only in the process of discussing whether Scn'ists have pets or what CofS does to people vis a vis money, staff contracts, etc.

I'll be damned if I'm going to lie to people about who and what I am just to please you.

I can always provide some URLs on netiquette if you're that clueless about it.

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merlin
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Pop Quiz

Post by merlin » Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:48 am

To: LtRichA, Shmoodles, and D-Rad:

Did your contributions to this discussion help or hinder Jonny in his quest to understand why we say Scientology is not a good path to follow?

Do you think what you had to say to Ball of Fluff helped convince him that we critics and people who aren't Scientologists are smarter or better than people who are?

Do you feel you succeeded in effectively criticising Scientology and "undressing" its "church"?

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:03 am

I feel undressed! :oops: Good thing I started that diet when I did!

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