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Question For Ex-Sea Org or Ex-Staff

Post by Roan » Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:39 am

'Go To Guns!' Image

Is this something that LRH used to say? Sort of like: "man your battle stations!" An old saying of his that faded in use after he dropped his body?

The Old Man used to love naval terms, expressions, punishments and regalia... is "go to guns" simply a Scientology command to get busy?

Tom, old-timers and the mollusks watching the video might just understand it that way. I didn't really take it literally as "go get guns and start shooting psyciatrists."

But that's just me.
“The failure to condemn an activity is indeed, an offer of tacit approval.
All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.” — Edmund Burke

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Re: Question For Ex-Sea Org or Ex-Staff

Post by Patty Pieniadz » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:34 pm

Roan wrote:'Go To Guns!' Image

Is this something that LRH used to say? Sort of like: "man your battle stations!" An old saying of his that faded in use after he dropped his body?

The Old Man used to love naval terms, expressions, punishments and regalia... is "go to guns" simply a Scientology command to get busy?

Tom, old-timers and the mollusks watching the video might just understand it that way. I didn't really take it literally as "go get guns and start shooting psyciatrists."

But that's just me.

It's not a Scn term. I read somewhere that it was a term he learned
while filming Top Gun and is used in that movie.

Patty
Education is not a hate crime.
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Post by SchwimmelPuckel » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:37 pm

Well, Roan, that could very well be. 'Go to Guns!' might be Tom dramatising being a Tomcat pilot in Topgun. You go to guns in a fighterjet, during dogfight, when too close for missiles... I think that the aircrafts weapons systems will announce 'go to guns' when range closes.

However.. Tom Cruise also said, in that video, that he was 'Disgusted' (by the evil psychs, and that it was 'Crimes against humanity!'. Sounding very intense and serious too.

Also.. The video was made by the Sinister Cult of Scientology's very large video production department. It was cut and edited with great care, and undoubtedly reviewed and approved by David Miscavige who has command, but apparently precious little responsibility.. To be shown to 100.000 religious zealots. This can only be interpreted as intentionally and calculated incitement to hate and violence.

All this considered and compared to the complaint that the crime cult brought against Keith Henson.. For threatning them with a 'Tom Cruise Missile' in obvious jest.

Tom Cruises 'Go to guns!' was not in jest! - That was a very distinct statement of intent to the scientologists.

David Miscavige and Tom Cruise needs to get their balls in the blender for it!

.
[i]Ask not what [url=http://www.lermanet.com][color=blue]Scientology[/color][/url] can do for you, ask what the F*arck! is going on.[/i]

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Post by Wieber » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:52 pm

I cannot remember any utterance of that kind coming from Hubbard. He expressed sentiments of this nature very often but when he did he couched them in such a way that they could be argued as figurative and to not be legally actionable.

There is a vast difference between Hubbard and Miscavige. Hubbard was clever, intuitive and intelligent and he could be extremely charming at a personal level. (Because he demonstrated those characteristics so well it makes it very difficult for someone who is "in" to see what exactly they have gotten into.) Miscavige has none of those attributes, or if he does they are at a very low level. About all you can say positive about Miscavige is that he's neat, clean and well dressed.

When Tom said, "go to guns," Miscavige probably responded by saying, "Yes! Perfect! That has to be in the event!" Hub may have liked the comment but he would have been smart enough to nix it from the presentation.
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Post by CJK » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:17 pm

I was looking for a link to the 2001 video where David Miscavige says "We are shooting down SPs like ducks in a pond", and receives thunderous applause from the audience. It was scary!

I found this LRH letter while looking, and this is even more scary!
July 19-53
Spain
Dear Helen -
You have many times mentioned the "electronics eager beavers" around
there.
Well, here is a _ _vital _ _ project for advanced research which I
_must_ have.


I have tried three times to get this gadget, simple as it is, and
three times the person who engaged upon it suddenly decided it was
"too terribly deadly" and although they had it almost complete,
stopped work on it in something like horror.


War, according to Klausewitz, is the art of inducing "a more agreeable
and reasonable frame of mind in an adversary." Our adversary,
insanity, is far from reasonable. I have been licking the problem of
insanity with mechanical _aids_. You may have wondered _why_ I keep
telling auditors to lay off the insane - It is because it is too tough
on the auditor when I have, in development stage, five mechanical aids
which, anyone of them, lick the problem without destroying the person,
the last being the favored method today in psychiatry. If I come over
for a series of lectures, I will want to have these five mechanical
aids to demonstrate and a means to manufacture them to hand. We can
"take Richmond" if I can put in psychiatric use, these simple aids.
They are four of them, nothing to build. The fifth is another matter.
It is the fifth we want to finish this step of the "mechanical aids
project". If we spring any of this before I can demonstrate and we
can manufacture and supply, the squirrels will ruin the entire show
with unworkable gimmicks re Howes. So this is secret. It is also
secret that the 5th aid, the one requested here, will never be
released generally and must remain secret. The other four are
simplicity. One is reduction of charge by grounding. Two is release
of charge by double terminaling with mirrors. Three is reduction of
charge with B1 and protein in quantity (already tested, never
understood by our "public"). Four is attention shifting by mechanical
aid. Five is the induction in the insane of instantaneous hypnosis
and theta clearing while tranced - _very_ effective but very hard to
do without a mechanical aid. The work I am doing here is
assisted by the fact that in Spain I have an unlimited freedom to
practice on the insane.


There are so _many_ insane in the US and so _few_ auditors that only
mechanical aids _plus_ group processing, can get us over this hump.
We really can solve insanity in the U.S. but not with individual
auditing at 2 or 3 weeks per insane patient. They go crazy faster than
we can audit.


The 5th aid uses a type of hypnosis not generally known. It is
physical hypnosis. The (thetan) agrees with the body. The body is
pretty crazy. When the thetan agrees too much thetan + body are crazy
= insanity. The body goes easily into a somnolence. If the body can
be made not to interfere for a short time, the (thetan) can be
exteriorized and worked. Drugs and shock hit the (thetan) too as
these connect with the brain control centers. The body can be
hypnotized via the _vagus_ nerve in the stomach. By creating a
regulated series of impacts against this nerve, it may be possible to
hypnotize the body and leave the (thetan) fairly free in many cases.


In order to accomplish this the device must not be suspected. Either
by sanitarium officials or the insane.


The device _must_ be packaged in a very ordinary tan brief case of the
type lawyers use and which has yet enough room to permit papers being
carried in it, taken out and put in casually before witnesses. The
"trigger" must be part of the lock of the case so that it can be
turned on and off at will.


The device itself is a super-sonic, alternately directed and
dispersed, beam, dry battery operated, without recoil upwards or
backwards against the user.


The device must not make audible noises or howls. It must, to the
human ear, be silent. It must deliver an impact of considerable force
on a small target with a concentrated beam. This beam must go on and
off and alternate with a dispersed but directed beam on a slighter
greater area target. At five feet the beam should strike a target
about 2" in diameter. The second beam should strike a target, same
direction and area, about 8" or 10" in diameter. The number of times
the beams strike, each, a minute, should be variable from 12 to 84 at
the control of the operator. He could then set the machine for 12
narrow beams per minute and increase it to 84 narrow beams per minute.
Narrow beams always followed by broad beams without variation and
control. (These numbers approximate the breathing and heart rate;
by bringing these into outward control, hypnotism is induced.)
The force of impact of the beams should be as great as possible. They
should
emanate from one of the narrow ends of the brief case, horizontally.


The Japanese have registered many patents on such devices and have
even, I think, killed a goat with one at 300 yards. The device is
not, however, practical as a weapon as it uses too much time. If the
feeling that such a device as #5, being deadly, should not be built or
placed in anyones hands deters its construction, recall that it
already exists and could be built for murderous purposes by anyone.


I want to be able to walk into a sanitorium, confront an insane
patient, quiet him in a few seconds, exteriorize him, change his mind,
wake him up physically. And I want a few auditors to be able to do
it. This would mean the immediate end of psychiatric resistance to
Scientology. Then we would take aids 1 to 4 and demonstrate and
widely install them.


I need then, here, soon, the 5th aid. I am testing and improving the
others. Only good engineering can build # 5. Can you have it built
and airfreighted to me quickly. I need it.


The Soundscriber came through fine and is working well, thanks to you
-


I am organizing material for 2 more large issues in the Journal. I
expect you will get out filler issues on their scheduled dates.


All is well here.


My love to you both -


<signature>
Ron


On shipping #5, give it a spurious use for the benefit of customs
here. Send the instructions by letter, not with machine.

Gumbythetruth
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Re: Question For Ex-Sea Org or Ex-Staff

Post by Gumbythetruth » Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:46 am

Roan wrote:'Go To Guns!' Image

Is this something that LRH used to say? Sort of like: "man your battle stations!" An old saying of his that faded in use after he dropped his body?

The Old Man used to love naval terms, expressions, punishments and regalia... is "go to guns" simply a Scientology command to get busy?

Tom, old-timers and the mollusks watching the video might just understand it that way. I didn't really take it literally as "go get guns and start shooting psychiatrists."

But that's just me.
Gun to guns refers to putting lead on the target pursued. Within the context of air to air combat. How do you feel the comment could be anything else but a threat against psychiatrists? Visuals of Hand grenades. Visuals of machine guns ripping thru the words psychiatry. Then culminating with Tom Cruises verbal threats. "GO TO GUNS,NO MERCY, NONE"

Peace, Gumby

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Re: Question For Ex-Sea Org or Ex-Staff

Post by Roan » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:28 am

Gumbythetruth wrote: How do you feel the comment could be anything else but a threat against psychiatrists?
I posed the question because I wanted to clear something up for myself and the answers I got did (thanks Patty and all for your responses).

Maybe he is. I'm just not sure... and it's not a hill I'd want to die on in debating about it. I have no problem with people thinking that TC is telling people to go get guns and kill M.D.'s.

I don't doubt that if Scientology had their way, psychiatrists in America would be forcibly rounded up and assigned to Maoist/RPF style "re-education" concentration camps.

But $cientology is small and shrinking (15,000 hardcore clams in U.S.), they have been totally un-dressed (largely by the internet) and have zero chance of acheiving any of their aims like Clearing the planet or eliminating psychology.

Still, yes, I think Tom Cruise is bat-shit crazy and the videos show it as did his interview with Matt Lauer.
“The failure to condemn an activity is indeed, an offer of tacit approval.
All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.” — Edmund Burke

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Re: Question For Ex-Sea Org or Ex-Staff

Post by programmer_guy » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:50 am

Patty Pieniadz wrote:
Roan wrote:'Go To Guns!' Image

Is this something that LRH used to say? Sort of like: "man your battle stations!" An old saying of his that faded in use after he dropped his body?

The Old Man used to love naval terms, expressions, punishments and regalia... is "go to guns" simply a Scientology command to get busy?

Tom, old-timers and the mollusks watching the video might just understand it that way. I didn't really take it literally as "go get guns and start shooting psyciatrists."

But that's just me.

It's not a Scn term. I read somewhere that it was a term he learned
while filming Top Gun and is used in that movie.

Patty
I had never heard that phrase used when I was in Scientology either.

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Post by Wieber » Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:36 am

I have never heard that expression used with regard to people who fly fighter aircraft. Usually when those people engage an enemy aircraft they are just too damn busy to say much of anything.

It may have been macho-speak in Top Gun but that movie did not depict fighter pilots in a realistic way at all, until after the film came out and some fighter pilots started emulating the film.

As an aside, I didn't like Top Gun when I saw it. I didn't have much use for Tom Cruise and it wasn't until a long time later I found out he was a scientologist. The 'enemy' aircraft in that film were Northrup F-5s. The Russians didn't have any aircraft that even looked remotely like the F-5, though the F-5 closely mimicked some Russian aircraft in its performance. For this reason the US military had F-5s painted in Russian camouflage and in Russian markings and used them in training exercises. That's probably why they were used in Top Gun.

I know a person who worked for three or four years in an engineering capacity related to fighter jets. I'll be getting in touch with him soon and I'll ask him if he ever heard the term, 'go to guns' used by fighter pilots.
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Post by lulu_belle » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:25 am

It's the name of an aviation war training video.

http://www.ihffilm.com/s235.html

The expression probably was used in Top Gun; I don't actually remember.
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Post by itsaline » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:43 am

Yep it's from the movie.

Top Gun script:

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:wu ... =clnk&cd=2

Scroll down. It's highlighted in yellow.
www.forum.exscn.net

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Post by Hubbard's Mushroom » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:17 pm

Guns are a Symbol or Mass with Meaning?

++++++++++++++++Sacred Cult Scripture++++++++++++++

The only thing which can pierce sixteen inch armor plate is a symbol. A bullet is not, accurately speaking, a symbol. All a bullet is, is some mass. Now, it can be mass with meaning. It could be a silver bullet, but just a bullet is just a mass. You could set it up and say, now this is a symbol of war and discuss it and give meaning to it. As long you use it actively and expend it, create it and expend it and locate it and fix it, it’s not a symbol. It’s just mass. See that? It’s a piece of energy.

But now let’s take the letters "a" and put it in printers ink. All right now, let’s take another symbol, we’ll call it police. It’s a word isn’t it? That’s all it is, a word. All right, we take this word and we garb it in energy, we give it an ideal, we make it mobile and we get it lost and then we don’t know where it is, and the next thing you know, it’s after us. You see that about police?

You don’t for a moment… now, let’s take, let’s take somebody who’s present here. This person has been trained in judo. He is really an expert in judo. He is very good with a Colt pistol, extremely good with a Colt pistol. His alertness is good and his reaction time is much better than normal. All right! Will you please tell me why this person should be afraid of a police officer? A police officer is seldom a good shot, is poorly, if at all, trained in judo and has reaction time which is mostly fat. And yet if a police officer walked in the door and said, come down to the jail with me and lose two days, this fellow would probably go along with him.

Why? Why? It’s nonsensical. Well, it’s because the individual here has a symbol called police. Well now let’s suppose this individual didn’t have a symbol called police and didn’t know the meaning of police, and had no further significance to police and some character in a uniform walked in the door and flourished a gun on him – hah, he’d just bury the guy that walked in at the door, that’s all. You see that?

Life would be awfully simple, wouldn’t it, if we didn’t have a symbol. It would be simple, direct and without a long time lag because the only real trouble with police is, if he killed this fellow, then some more police would come tomorrow, he thinks, according to the symbol. Actually they might not, they might say, we better not arrest that fellow.

You see whither we are going with this thing called symbol. It’s an embrasive idea and it gets fixed in mass and because it’s mass and a thetan is often hungry for energy, he will pick up one of these things and because he objects to their confounded mobility, he will try to hold one still and after that, having resisted it, he will become it.

A body could be said to be a symbol. It’s mobile, it’s an idea, it’s fixed in mass, and we find, strangely enough, that a thetan who believes he’s a body has already adopted a great number of ethics, ideals, and otherwise, and fixations and arbitraries, and when we start to process him, we exteriorize him and he says, „I’m not a body.“ Hah! And what do you know, you shed at that moment an enormous number of the arbitraries which have been holding him into a persistence in life and denying him livingness. He hasn’t any action or anything else as long as this takes place. He’s fluidity.
—L. Ron Hubbard
Lecture 16 January 1954: Symbols and Group Processing Demo

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Gumbythetruth
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Post by Gumbythetruth » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:27 pm

I worked with the Grumman aircraft Technical director for the film TOP GUN, on another film. I will not back down on my previous statement. Go to Guns." PUT LEAD ON TARGET". I could care less what the rest of the WOG world thinks about this statement. Anyway you look at this , IT STILL MEANS DESTROY THE TARGET.

When working with the Technical Director for Grumman aircraft on the aircraft carrier USS TEDDY ROOSEVELT , CVN-71, I had all access on the carrier, at sea for 2 weeks during battle practice maneuvers. Pilots, Pri Fly, the deck and ready rooms.Hell, i myself was launched off the carrier in a jet and landed in Puerto Rico, onto the Roosevelt Rhodes air field. This film is STILL shown in the National Air and space museum in Washington D.C.

How others interpret Cruises rantings need to understand the jargon which emanated from his pie hole in the 2004 IAS video. GO TO GUN,S! NO MERCY! NONE can NOT be interpreted any other way except , being inciting and threatening.

Peace, Gumby

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Post by Wieber » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:26 pm

Gumbythetruth wrote:How others interpret Cruises rantings need to understand the jargon which emanated from his pie hole in the 2004 IAS video. GO TO GUN,S! NO MERCY! NONE can NOT be interpreted any other way except , being inciting and threatening.
I agree. I think most people on this board agree.

I think one of the reasons for this discussion is to consider the arguments contrary to that view and how to deal with them.

The final decision on this matter should lie with a judge in a court of law. The challenge here is how to influence events to reach a point where the matter goes into a court before a judge.

Tom Cruise and scientology have allegedly committed a crime by his uttering that statement and in scientology packaging and distributing it. The DVD with that statement and its supporting sentiments was distributed across state lines and internationally. That would make it a federal matter.

Have the appropriate law enforcement agencies received a report on this with supporting evidence?
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
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Post by Gumbythetruth » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:37 pm

Wieber wrote:
Gumbythetruth wrote:How others interpret Cruises rantings need to understand the jargon which emanated from his pie hole in the 2004 IAS video. GO TO GUN,S! NO MERCY! NONE can NOT be interpreted any other way except , being inciting and threatening.
I agree. I think most people on this board agree.

I think one of the reasons for this discussion is to consider the arguments contrary to that view and how to deal with them.

The final decision on this matter should lie with a judge in a court of law. The challenge here is how to influence events to reach a point where the matter goes into a court before a judge.

Tom Cruise and scientology have allegedly committed a crime by his uttering that statement and in scientology packaging and distributing it. The DVD with that statement and its supporting sentiments was distributed across state lines and internationally. That would make it a federal matter.

Have the appropriate law enforcement agencies received a report on this with supporting evidence?
Wieber. I was waiting for someone to ask that question regarding the DVD and state lines. I will make sure the FBI gets a copy of the 2004 IAS video, along with several others. I will also forward a copy of the DVD to ROD PACHECO , DA for Riverside county and Riverside County Sheriff Stan Sniff. If nothing is done on a local level, then the information will be shared with those in higher office within the state of California! It,s time to get the legal ball rolling! Who on this board can direct me to footage of the Sci meeting in which Hand grenades and machine guns where visually used to destroy psychiatry?

Peace, Gumby

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