Contradictions

Share your personal experiences with others. We're not here to judge or criticise, but to share and support.

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Twin A
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Post by Twin A » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:41 pm

I am sorry. To me this sound like nonsense. The pc most definitely has rights. He may say against. He may even interrupt the session if things really get wrong. He may report the auditor, the C/S and any other. There are also clear references that say if a pc fails the session, that this is the sole responsibility of the Auditor and/or C/S.

Hi Roadrunner,

Thanks for your comment on my post. I probably come from a totally different background in Scientology than you did. Maybe you do have evidence personally that PCs are given rights. I'm willing to accept that you do. I am curious about your experiences compared to mine.

I have evidence of many PCs (including myself) being denied rights in a Scientology organization, by RTC itself (the highest authority that acts on reports) I cannot accept a blanket statement that PCs are given rights. That is very clearly not a valid statement to me. And that was why I listed this out in my list of contradictions.

I looked for something written by LRH laying out the responsibilities and rights of a PC, but never found one. I wrote to both RTC and the SNR CS INT office asking for any LRH reference with regards to this and I received nothing in response.

If a PC is given rights and PCs have been given these rights by Scientology Organizations, I simply don't have any actual evidence of it. As far as I'm concerned it's luck, or gestures made to create the illusion that a PC has rights. When push comes to shove and their is a dispute--there is no real guarantee that a PC will get treated fairly.

I'd like to modify what I said earlier, to make it not seem like nonsense to you, it's kind of hard for me to get past my own experiences of having my rights denied by auditors, CSs and RTC. It's also hard to get past all the times I'd seen RTC order PCs to pay for their own reviews.

I have a unique history as a PC, but it's actually similar in many ways to many ex members stories. And I know that the numbers of people ordered to pay for their own case reviews and fix ups is up in the thousands of people range. I also know that I am not the only person who has been locked in an auditing room and forced to answer questions under duress. I'm not the only person who has had session information not kept in the pc folder.

Maybe a more valid thing to say would be that PCs rights are not clearly delineated and not guaranteed. Would that be less nonsense to you than saying PCs have no real rights?

My experiences as PC were while I was on staff, in the SO. If I was public, I may have ended up like Lisa McPherson. So I was lucky in that respect. I lived through all the crap that happened to me case-wise and I managed to regain my sanity and health. Almost all of my recovery was on my own at my own expense. I did get some help from the SO, which I did appreciate, I enjoyed my three month vacation at Big Bear Lake. I wish it was enough. Because then I could say that I complained to RTC and Snr CS Int Office and they came to my rescue.

I wish I could be saying that right now. I wish I could tell people to go ahead and try Scientology, that they have nothing to lose. That there is a parachute, that if things get screwed up, don't worry... RTC will come to the rescue. I wish I could tell public at Flag that if they start feeling like they are suicidal, that all the best review auditors will jump in and help at no cost --- instead of telling them the cold hard fact that they will be banished from the FH property for having any kind of suicidal thoughts. I wish I could tell a Scientologist that if they have a nervous breakdown, that the Introspection Rundown works 100 percent of the time and that it's FREE. But it is not free. It costs at least 60,000 dollars AND it has been known to miserably fail.

I wish I could tell a PC that if they start having mental problems after their auditing, that they will get all the free hot and cold running help they need to sort things out. But I can't. Because in all likelihood, failures WILL BE BLAMED on them. They will get sent home to solve their problems on their own. They "were PTS" or they "were not honest" or "they were already crazy to begin" with or they "were out-ethics" or they "had evil intentions" and "intended to fail". I wish I could tell OT Scientologists that they could go to a Scientologist run non-profit to get alternative mental health care such as Safe Harbor. But they can't. Safe Harbor has been instructed NOT to help crazy OT Scientologists by OSA. I don't know if they help regular Scientologists or not, and if it's cheaper than the 60,000 rundown.

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Twin A
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Post by Twin A » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:59 pm

To Tori and others, I really appreciate all the other contradictions stories. This is all pretty amazing.

I wonder how other religious groups deal with people who find too many contradictions? I have read a couple of harassment stories from an Ex Mormon website that sound painfully similar to Scientology harassment. I haven't heard of Ex Catholics or Ex Protestants getting persecuted. I have some Ex Catholic friends who are still able to communicate to their family members that are still Catholics.

I wish I could talk to my twin sister (Twin B) ! I miss her a lot.

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:54 am

Staff are treated like shit under the current regime. Unfortunately, there are many former staff who've attested to being treated like shit when LRH was at the helm and I believe them.

There are policies that pave the way to creating those conditions. I remember one that said something to the effect that most injustices (toward staff) occur because they don't know their own rights. Well, hell, that's a copout.

Also Leaving and Leaves. Sure it says that if they want to leave, let them leave. And yes, that's breached all the time and those are policy violations. BUT that PL is STILL faulty. It gives utterly ridiculously stringent conditions in which it is ok to leave staff. I'm sorry, but no way can I defend that. Nobody should have to ask anything or meet ANY conditions in order to leave staff.

I also don't believe there should be such things as Freeloader Debts. Here's why:

Cost of services way too high to begin with

Staff member already working tail off for far less than minimum wage (whether he/she be mission, Class V org staff or SO staff.) Surely he or she would have worked the debt off just by being there a bajillion hours a week, day after day, never any time off.

Church management/admin routinely deny staff the "perks", so to speak, that they are supposed to get, like sick time, vacation time, staff training.

Hubbard said, I think it was in a Flag Order (some of the others here will, doubtless, remember the reference) that ex SO staff are DBs. Ok, that's just sick.

RPF

The RPF's RPF.

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Post by Edward » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:01 pm

Hi Twin A,

thanks for sharing your viewpoint and experiences. As a wog who only spent one and a bit days in an org, being love bombed for much of it, I am always interested to hear others experiences.

I hope that you will one day be united with Twin B



.

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:01 pm

Roadrunner wrote: You shouldn't go after rumour. Establish some truths first. Verify which is really LRH. Till which time was he actually still around. Many questions have been forwarded.

For example the original references clearly state that if you want to leave nothing will hold you back, you may go.

Regards,
RR
I'm not going after rumor. I'm ex staff, I've experienced some of the abuse, I've read the PLs myself and I've personally talked to people who have left the SO and heard what they had to recount.

Leaving and Leaves does NOT say "nothing will hold you back." It does say "if he wants to leave, let him leave" but it puts conditions on that which must be met. And I'm saying I disagree with that.

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Post by Gladiator » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:29 pm

Welcome to OC Twin A, and thank you for sharing your story.

Well done for finding the basic truth about $cientology; the true$cientology is the one hiding behind all the PR lies and cover stories,and it is not just different, but exactly the opposite of anything that its lying PR machine claims.

Pity that so many of us have taken so long to figure it out, it could havebeen far less painful, but I like to think that, on the other hand, we are now vaccinated against all kinds of malevolent and criminal cults or similar belief systems, and we will no longer fall into supporting another one with a different name, because we will now look straight at the wolf, and no longer at the sheep clothes as, whilst they might be different in name and looks, on the surface, they all use Standard Tech.

Good luck with Twin B.
" CULTS ARE SOUL STEALERS "

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Valkyrie
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Re: Contradictions

Post by Valkyrie » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:53 am

Twin A wrote:I was being kept at the Old Gilman House area of the Gold base (Northwest side) in 1999, and Ken Delderfield was out there. Ken was been in Scn since the late 50's, and in the SO practically since it started. He was dumped out at OGH because he was labelled an "ethics particle" and was off any posts. He had pneumonia. He was coughing so hard that his ribs cracked. He could not lie down, because the liquid in his lungs would start to choke him. He sat up in a chair and just sat there. I tried to give in a touch assist one day and it made absolutely no difference. He'd just been left to sit out at OGH for weeks, getting worse and worse. Then one day, a security guard got mad at Ken. He said, "You dick! You are trying to purposefully die out here aren't you? And make us look bad! Well I'm going to take you to a hospital" The guard, albeit his motives may have been odd, saved Ken's life and took him to a hospital in Hemet. Ken had to get intensive care because the pneumonia wasn't responding to regular antibiotics. The hospital stay created a large medical bill. This medical bill was sent to the FBO Gold (Teresa Karbowski) by the MLO Asst. (Jocelyn Webb) with a CSW attached requesting financial payment of this bill to go into the Gold Financial Planning. Teresa replied "NOT OK" "NO BEAN RETURN". Ken was still in the SO, he was also an old timer. Did any of the LRH policies about staff care get USED? No they did not. As far as I know, Ken had to pay this bill himself out of his own money. I can't imagine he had much after having been on staff since the late 50's.
This is one of the biggest things that just IRKS ME about Scn and why I left staff. This man's BEAN RETURN was TENFOLD. Look at all the years of DEDICATION he gave the SO, and then he gets treated likes he's out-exchange?!?!? And then someone has the audacity to tell him he's making them look bad? So typical of Scn....for Gwad's Sake.

NOT OK, How DARE you treat another being like this??!?!

Enough is ENOUGH. We "WOGS" don't take kindly to people treating each other, and especially the elderly, like SHIT.

We are OUTRAGED. We are DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THIS ABUSE.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." – Goethe

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lucy skywalker
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Post by lucy skywalker » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:16 pm

Man is not cumulative. People have experiences and when the experiences become cumulative something is discovered. I am already guessing you are adamantly opposed to that view.

Look at the beginning of this thread my dear. I agree with all these. We have all experienced this you can dispute or not. It is not your experience and you are a by the book Hubbardian Scientologist.

I was looking for answers in Scientology and Scientology didn't have the answers that I was looking for. It wasn't helping me it was separating me.
And it wasn't separating me due to an overt or any of that nonsense. Yes there is reason and truth to the methodology to a point.

I know I am fully responsible for my experiences in life. I am at cause. But I am not an uncompassionate robot looking for another messiah.

It is ok to be me. It is more than ok to me. It is ok to be an individual with thoughts, feelings, and desires. Mentioning feelings, they are not a bad thing, it is what we choose to to do with them and how they are judged which makes them what they are.

From my view Hubbard was a spirit having a human experience and trying to codify this and human behavior for all of mankind. He might have had a few discoveries, though from reported events many others did research for him then he would offload them as SP's. Hello!? So back to the point, yes I can give some credit for the first part of the bridge, but none for the super fantastic second half of the bridge. That is where imagination and ego take over. The same ol' story in all of history madness, power and greed.

love,

lucy
www.exscientologykids.com/
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[i]beyond_horizons ... rest in peace dear friend[/i]

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Ladybird
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Post by Ladybird » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:04 pm

PLEASE Lucy and Roadrunner, stop derailing Twin A's thread. Please start your own thread. If you have a question for RR please read his site 1st, it is right there in his profile. So far in the past month he has written 600 posts and said nothing new that he hasn't already written.

http://www.algonet.se/~tourtel/interest ... index.html

http://www.algonet.se/~tourtel/WHO_IS_THIS.html

This all a game to him, he has been banned from other boards for the same game, and he is not going to stop until we ALL quit playing along.
[i]"There is nothing as wild in the books of Man as will probably happen here on Earth...it will happen and be allowed to happen simply because all this is so incredible that nobody will even think of stopping it until it is far, far too late"~LRH[/i]

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Hoot
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Post by Hoot » Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:05 am

I was really enjoying this thread till it got derailed...

Too bad....

Ya...we need a moderator that will help end this kind of thing...especially in the Stories section...It shouldn't be a debate section at all!!!

I hope Twin A will continue with his Contradiction train of thought.

Love<

Hoot
Tom, Tom, Tom, you're glib. You don't know the History of $cientology...we do.

http://www.exscientologykids.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATGjoS5aGOg

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Twin A
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Post by Twin A » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:47 am

Hi Hoot,

Thanks for the encouragement. I got kinda busy. I've posted more over on ESMB. Sometimes I just think of stories and anecdotes rather than in terms of a subject. But I will post more on this subject later.

Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, "Book One" as it is termed is merely a false advertising tool. Because Scientology is a "religion" , it can sell this book freely, but factually it is full of very false claims and false information about how to deal with traumatic incidents in a person's life. I don't know what the laws are about people offering mental health services without a license, but I would have to say that Dianetics should fall under this category, unlicensed mental health practices. It has nothing to do with the spirit, in Book One, it has everything to do with getting people to talk about trauma and it's quite wrong on many counts.

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