that just proves it....creative people leave scn. Mike and Don Carlo, (who actually wrote it?) that was one of the most entertaining posts I've seen. Fortunately we don't have to worry about them taking over as long as the jewish and muslim religions are around. thank god. also they tend to alientate the majority of the people they bring in. miscellaneous other of their actions create 1000x more bad publicity than all the "clear the planet" liturature they could ever dream of putting out. I have faith that the smart people with an oz. of logic will eventually leave, the other mindless drones can continue all they want but they lack the creative charisma to generate any good feelings in the community about the cherch. I can't even look at John Travolta without picturing him smack in the middle of OT VII nodding with agreement as he finds out Ron is the antichrist. Has he done OT V11? I wonder why he didn't use his OT powers to make every person go see Battlefield Earth. ha ha

Steve G

If SPs are more powerful than OTs and can block there postulates, then why bother with the OT levels at all?

Going SP can be done in an hour and costs nothing.

This is one reason why picketing an org (esp. Sea Org org) is a rehabilitating experience for an ex-member - you get such a simple and final demonstration of the OTs total inability to handle SPs.

The power of OTs is derived from the mythical beliefs of their fellow scientologists, plus whatever strengths and abilities the person already carried inside themselves before joining Scn. Take away the first and what's left is what we all have.

Well, I guess one could make a similar argument about SP powers.

Richard, I think you've got something there! Think of the flyers:

"Tired of being pushed around by OTs while being stuck at the low end of the Bridge? Do you want to be at cause over these pompous windbags and stop the constant regging? Well you can do it, and it won't cost you a dime!"

"How?", you ask. Simple: become an SP! SPs have been at cause over OTs since the beginning; Ron said so! SPs can block those OT intention beams without any effort. Just let that natural entheta flow and KERBANGO!, You're At Cause!"

"Become an SP and gain the instant respect of virtually everyone on the planet! It's easy, fun, and best of all, FREE!"

"Call in the next twenty minutes and you'll ALSO get my free companion booklet on:

1. How to change your telephone number to an unlisted one.

2. 101 Fun Things To Do with the junk mail you'll get for the next 20 years (no matter how many times you move).

3. How to spot OSA lackeys lurking outside your door or in your rearview mirror.

4. How to make a citizens arrest.

5. Fun things to do at the last event you attend. Including the infamous "I Just Got a Million Dollar Inheritance" bit. Watch the staff blather and foam at the mouth, fighting to get you alone in a room after the event!"

Thanks for the fun Steve! I'm not particularly good at this-anyone else want to add?

Lucky

the real ot's are the people who have left the church and are creating their own lives. Building your own financial future is the beginning of sp hood. No more allowing the church to steal all of your money.
Freedom from scios is the mark of an ot. Freedom to attack scios is an even higher level.
One achieves ot 20 when they have closed at least two orgs freeing the resident bt's.
I still think we should declare an international sue scientology month.

I love this thread. It really hits you when you realise all your "critical thoughts" about OTs that you fought so hard to supress are actually truths. Whenever the mindcontrol starts to kick in with me and I start to wonder if I did the right thing by leaving the Org, I read threads like this and laugh to myself and realise (again!) that there are no OTs.

There are ot's. But, not in scios.
One of the most well known today is satcha sai baba in india. He is about 76 years old. He said that he will live three lifetimes here. He has already lived one as sai baba of shirdi. He says he will live until he is 90. He will then die and come back 8 years later as prema sai baba.
He builds schools in india. He has built at least one hospital.
People come from around the world every day to see him.
I read a book sometime back about a group of people that the us armed services had culled from the separate branches. They all had psi abilities. They were used mostly during the cold war to spy on other countries. One of them was a tech sargent. They could place him in a room and give him a location and he would tell them all about what was going on there.
My point is that there are ot,s. Actually, they are people with ot abilities. I never met one in scios.

village idiot,

There exists differing views on Sai Baba, and whether his abilities are real or just stage magician tricks. See for example this article in English from 'Sökaren' ('The Seeker'), a Swedish magazine for spiritual/new age issues:
http://www.sokaren.se/INDEX135.HTML

There are a lot of stories going around about people with extraordinary abilities, and I certainly would not say it's totally impossible (I've experienced a number of interesting things myself that I could not immediately explain, like mind-reading, premonitions and "visions" ). Still, people often have so much to gain from painting themselves as "OTs" - fame, attention, admiration, power, money, sex - that I think one should be very wary about uncritically accepting such claims.

Another thing to remember is how tempting it is for many of us to believe such claims. Fantasy stories are great fun, wouldn't it be interesting to live in a colourful world with magic everywhere? I personally would really love to believe that all tales of extraordinary abilities are true. Which is precisely why I have to be extremely skeptic about them, or I'll just fool myself with wishful thinking. That goes for personal, subjective experiences as well - there is a difference between what goes on in my mind (no matter how "real" it feels) and logical, outside-world explanations of what is going on.

"Reality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it." - Philip K. Dick

Dear Catarina,

Göteborgs Posten (Gothenburg's newspaper) had an article on Sai Baba on friday (19 maj). Apparently he shared one of Ron Hubbards passions in life ... pederasty.

Anonymous,

Thanks, I'll check it out. Yes, that particular accusation against Sai Baba has been raised by several people. He is said to have had a special interest in inviting boys and young men for private meetings to bless them with "the divine touch"...

Dear Catarina and Village Idiot,

To be perfectly fair to L Ron Hubbard, I have never read that he had underaged sexual partners of either gender. Personally, I would have been sorely tempted by the teenage Commodore Messangers (CMO) who wore hot pants and mid-riff haltertops as uniforms, but the only suggestion I have heard of hanky panky is a sly hint in one of the books (Piece of Blue Sky?) that the CMO 'served Ron's every possible need' (or something close to that).

Are there any photographs of David Miscavige when he was in the CMO? I somehow can't quite picture him in hot pants.

One of the items I read about sai baba was that he would never see anyone alone. Mainly because of the type of comments being mentioned by the above posters. He was already aware of the possibility for this type of attack.
Strange that rude Ron would stay in america and fleece the rich while sai baba would stay in india, one of the poorest countries on the planet, and build schools and hospitals. Perhaps anonymous is trying to discredit the true ot's.
Why would a fat old man like hubbard keep a bunch of young kids in hot pants around him instead of more educated and experienced helpers.
Hubbards way of dealing with sick staff members is to send them to the charity hospitals rather then pay for their care.
Sai baba has been responsible for building at least one hospital and perhaps more. Hubbard builds schools that brainwash people and Sai baba builds schools that teach general education so that the indian children can earn a living.

Dear Village Idiot,

Before I read the article last saturday that detailed allegations of sexual misconduct against Sai Baba, I had never heard of him. If these allegations are true, they still do not change the fact of his charitable works. Many spiritual and humanitarian leaders have had their human fallacies (as seen by the 'public') revealed: Eleanor Roosevelt, Jimmy Carter, Martin Luther King, Queen Margrethe II of Denmark, ...

Perhaps your respect for SaiBaba would be better shared in this forum if you did not compare him with the silliness of Scxientology (i.e., by calling him a 'true OT').

Incidentally, I read a lot of the sai baba stuff.
He says that everyone is god. My understanding of this is that we are part of the great is. Like fingers and toes. Still, we are part of whatever put this here.
Because nothing spiritual can be proved, each must chose to think what he wants.
Like a video game such as ms. pacman the being chooses an identity and experiences that life. Then the being chooses another identity and plays that part for whatever truth or experience or karma he is searching for. I think when we die we simply go back to school and review the previous lifetime and then choose another lifetime to solve some problem, desire, or karma. I believe we choose our future situations. Just like a video game only the life identity requires that the mind does not know of the existence of the spirit otherwise the game would not serve its purpose of teaching.
I refuse to defend sai baba. I cannot defend sai baba. He chose all the elements in his life and it is being played out by plan. Why he does what he does is his particular cross to bear.
I read some of the critical stuff on the internet about sai baba. They claim to have films showing sai baba to be a fake. I am the village idiot and I know how film can be doctered to be anything. Doctoring stuff was one of the things that proved to me that scios was a mess. Scios released a tape which was supposedly ron talking but it had so many little electronic noises in it that it was obviously a tape made of rude ron's voice with pieces cut out from other tapes. I asked another scios guy about it and his first reaction was "yeh, I thought that was weird too."
after he talked to his wife he reassured me that the management of scios had their reasons and it was not our place to question them.
Perhaps, Catarina, the agreed upon reality is what doesn't go away and not the individual reality. Perhaps, the individual reality goes away with the individual. And, maybe, Phillip Dick is still a Dick, who knows.