Caged Scientologist boils Angry Gay Pope w/hot coffee

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Dorothy
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Re: Caged Scientologist boils Angry Gay Pope w/hot coffee

Post by Dorothy » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:27 pm

With all due respect, ImGlib, because I understand that as moderator you will want to try and address personal attacks, I think it is hypocritical to try and purge all personal attack from this forum. Why, because there is a plethora of "perfectly legal" or "politically correct" personal attack here on clambake. I am talking about personal attacks on Dave McSavage, ElWrong Hubbard, various "scilons" and the little brown-nosed prick himself, Mr. Tommy Davis. I have never seen a shoop of Dave or personal attack against these, called out. It is a form of "fair gaming" as it were. Who gets to decide who is a legal recipient of such attacks and who is not? Where do you draw the line on the outlawing of personal attack? I myself have made personal attacks for which I have been reprimanded, that I felt were "mild" in nature, followed by a barrage of vapid and profanity laden downright violent personal attacks that were, through resulting silence, apparently considered acceptable, I guess because I "deserved it". I'm not holding a grudge, I resolved it for what it was. I came to realize that personal attack was a reality of clambake. That only proves my point.

You have a tough job. Might I suggest that personal attack not be moderated based upon support or lack of support for any particular individual, but rather moderated by how far one goes. I just do not think it is realistic to remove all personal attack from a forum that deals with an extremely controversial subject. It is bound to happen and cannot be completely controlled. Roan has made it perfectly clear his view of AGP's "work". He does not consider it "work" at all but an embarrassment to the movement. His comments make perfect sense in that context. Perhaps he has stood next to AGP and got a whiff he can never forget, i dk. I have to admit that AGP seems to go after scientology with emotional drama that seems based upon some kind of personal revenge. It is as if he is really angry about something else and takes it out on individual scientologists. Honestly, that is not good activism imo. As you say, he is controversial, and because he is controversial and knows it, I expect him to expect strong reaction in return, and I bet he does and laughs when it happens. If it upsets him, he should instead look at what he's doing. Does he ever do that?

Bottom line, I don't think Gumby's or Roan's comments were venomous at all or that they were any big deal. They were criticisms of his personal appearance, skill, and style. So what. I have seen much, much worse.
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt

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Blah blah blah criticisms

Post by AngryGayPope » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:48 pm

People can cricitize me all they want. I'm not stopping anything. But many other protesters have quit because of the obnoxiousness of these message boards, esp. wwp.net. For example calling AnonPoet "fat" for appearing on camera at a Riverside BOS meeting. THen leaving that comment up. Attacking Determu for speaking at the BOS. Both things happened on wwp.net.

Those people were taking a personal risk, were not being paid, and were publicly excoriated by "anonymous" members of the same team until they faded away. No wonder so many people have quit the movement. Almost everyone except diehards like me who find the status quo unacceptable, especially in Hollywood, a highly infected town.

I am not here to make it easier for scientologists to quit I am here to make it harder for them to stay. The guy who threw coffee in my face, James Byrnes, has been in SO for 44 years! I did a net search and found allegations he was a very abusive person when he was in command. Now he has fallen to the level of security guard. Tsk tsk!

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Re: Caged Scientologist boils Angry Gay Pope w/hot coffee

Post by I'mglib » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:49 pm

Dorothy, I appreciate your comments, and you are correct that there are a lot of personal attacks on DM and Miscavige here. It is dicey.

But in this case, I think you have misunderstood what I meant. I don't think it's bad for Roan to: " make it perfectly clear his view of AGP's "work". He does not consider it "work" at all but an embarrassment to the movement. His comments make perfect sense in that context."

That's cool.

I thought the gag ball comment, and the hygene references went too far though. No one is being moderated, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong. Funnily, AGP has been pretty well behaved so far on this board, imo. That said, I don't approve of videotaping kids at school, or bothering people at work.

I am sorry you were insulted at some point on this board, and it sounds like it got out of hand. Drawing the line is tough, I gotta say. I think that Andreas' suggestion that people write things as if they were talking to someone face to face is a good one. If DM or LRH's ghost came here to post, I suppose we would have to tone down what we say about them. However, to a large extent you have to hope that people will moderate themselves and that we can all help by trying to set a tone of great and lively debate that also remains civil as much as possible. Hence my previous "be awesome" musings, that were also misunderstood, or perhaps badly explained.
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Re: Caged Scientologist boils Angry Gay Pope w/hot coffee

Post by Gumbythetruth » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:50 pm

I'mglib wrote: The thing about THIS thread and about AGP is he IS a controversial figure. As I understand it, he has been banned from WWP and ESMB, and frankly, when he signed up here, I was a bit worried. But I thought, hey, what is the NUMBER ONE thing Andreas wants for this board: FREE SPEECH. Andreas does not want to have the board where people are not allowed to have their say (like Marty's board).

But what is the NUMBER TWO thing? Andreas has said over and over that this board should be a FRIENDLY PLACE where people talk as they would if they were face to face.
What you have said I'mglib does ring turn to me. AGP has every right to express himself here and out in the public sector. And per the Admin of this board, I agreed we should be friendly. That being said, I should have NOT called AGP an ass! I should have said he IMHO makes an ass out of himself out in public when doing these bizarre "Lets single out a scientologist" for the purposes of something I must be missing within his videos.

If AGP were here in my living room, I would question his motives and speak my mind. Difficult as that may be. I cannot fathom waking up in the morning, grabbing my video camera, then trollin around Hollyweird to see whom I can find to vent whatever it is that makes me tick!

Though AGP has the right, he too should understand how the public's perception of his actions can and do offend. Those actions may back fire on him in a very negative way as evident from past TRO's.

I await AGP's response to what it is he feels is being accomplished.

Gumbythetruth

Re: Blah blah blah criticisms

Post by Gumbythetruth » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:54 pm

AngryGayPope wrote:People can cricitize me all they want. I'm not stopping anything. But many other protesters have quit because of the obnoxiousness of these message boards, esp. wwp.net. For example calling AnonPoet "fat" for appearing on camera at a Riverside BOS meeting. THen leaving that comment up. Attacking Determu for speaking at the BOS. Both things happened on wwp.net.
Duuuuuude! Public protesting is a very small part of the overall efforts to dismantle the cult. Let it go man. What happened on WWP HAPPENED on WWP ok? Rise above that BS.

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Re: Caged Scientologist boils Angry Gay Pope w/hot coffee

Post by I'mglib » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:02 pm

Gumbythetruth wrote:
I'mglib wrote: The thing about THIS thread and about AGP is he IS a controversial figure. As I understand it, he has been banned from WWP and ESMB, and frankly, when he signed up here, I was a bit worried. But I thought, hey, what is the NUMBER ONE thing Andreas wants for this board: FREE SPEECH. Andreas does not want to have the board where people are not allowed to have their say (like Marty's board).

But what is the NUMBER TWO thing? Andreas has said over and over that this board should be a FRIENDLY PLACE where people talk as they would if they were face to face.
What you have said I'mglib does ring turn to me. AGP has every right to express himself here and out in the public sector. And per the Admin of this board, I agreed we should be friendly. That being said, I should have NOT called AGP an ass! I should have said he IMHO makes an ass out of himself out in public when doing these bizarre "Lets single out a scientologist" for the purposes of something I must be missing within his videos.

If AGP were here in my living room, I would question his motives and speak my mind. Difficult as that may be. I cannot fathom waking up in the morning, grabbing my video camera, then trollin around Hollyweird to see whom I can find to vent whatever it is that makes me tick!

Though AGP has the right, he too should understand how the public's perception of his actions can and do offend. Those actions may back fire on him in a very negative way as evident from past TRO's.

I await AGP's response to what it is he feels is being accomplished.

See, this is a good post, imo.

Above yours is one where AGP says he is "not here to make it easier for scientologists to quit I am here to make it harder for them to stay."

I don't think it works that way. I've never read something from an recent ex who has said they couldn't take what protesters said, so they left. In theory I supposed it could work, and maybe there is a subconscious thing going on. Maybe people think, "Yeesh, why are people harrassing us, I'm outta here." It could be a part of the overall negative feeling they have, and add fuel to their own doubts.

I've read a lot of doubt formulas and KRs from exes about the church, and 99% of what they list as reasons are outpoints they see or specific instances of mishandling of their own cases. Sometimes what gets them to start looking is a news item or something they heard from someone else.


Edit: I also agree with what you just said as I was typing, that whatever happened on WWP should be let go.
"A man may build himself a throne of bayonets, but he cannot sit on it." -William Ralph Inge

Watch the Los Angeles press conference here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ScilonTV#p/

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Re: Caged Scientologist boils Angry Gay Pope w/hot coffee

Post by Smurf » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:42 pm

AGP & I have traded emails on where we stand. I have been honest & upfront about where I stand on his style of protesting and am not afraid to post my concerns or disagreements about them. As I've told AGP, I don't live my life according to what others think of me - did that in Scientology and I got screwed for it - and I don't need anyone to agree with me to validate my life. I'm true to myself. If others don't agree with me - fuck them. AGP is an adult. If he screws up, and there's consequences, he should be an adult & face them head-on.

That said, AGP's style of aggressive protesting has earned him a TRO in Los Angeles, a misdemeanor conviction in Riverside County, and an arrest in Santa Monica. While he & Graham Berry are investing alot of time, effort & money defending AGP in the courts, Rick Moxon & the OSA-Legal team, with their multi-million dollar litigation budget, are having to deal with AGP, in addition to, all the other legal matters involving the cults. It's just one more thing to add to their agenda.

Nothing that AGP says or does is going to cause COS to quit... it will never happen and to think otherwise is a grandiose pipe dream. One thing AGP may wish to consider is, if he succeeds in pissing the COS enough that they get TRO's banning him from protesting at any of the COS facilities, then what has he achieved in the long run?? I guess there is always the Catholic & Episcopalian churches where he has also protested & caused a ruckus.

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Re: Caged Scientologist boils Angry Gay Pope w/hot coffee

Post by Benny's Friend » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:56 pm

Lotta hissing on this thread. lol!

Gumby, thanks for the correction. Sorry I got my panties in a bunch. My thought was to be supportive of AGP in this thread because he seems to be moving in a slightly better direction in his protesting style versus bellowing through a fence at school children. As noted by someone earlier, AGP has come a long way since his first arrival on the scene. IMO he continues to show improvement. Unfortunately, AGP's style in the past has been influenced by the vulgar and insulting hatemongering of AO and I was just trying to encourage him away from that. I am touchy about the being 'swept from the sidewalk' thing, though -- not because leaving wasn't the right thing to do but because the police forced us to unconstitutionally. Honestly, if one of the handlers, or the police, or even a random pedestrian had said, "You know, this is fun little family thing and this protesting stuff is kinda spoiling it for the kids," I believe I would have seen the reason in that and left immediately. I hadn't thought about that ahead of time. It was having my rights usurped by the police that ticked me off.

I don't see the value in protesting the holiday event itself, but I support what AGP is doing, especially photographing the workers (where it's legal) so those on the outside can identify them - maybe get a glimpse of a friend or family member. And he was smart to film the encounter with the foreman. I'd like to see him take the suggestions offered by former SO regarding how he addresses the workers and put his efforts there to even better use.
The more who speak out, the more who get out.

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Re: Caged Scientologist boils Angry Gay Pope w/hot coffee

Post by magoo1 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:41 am

Kindness will *always* penetrate deeper than hatred.

Snide remarks are used by OSA to "prove" why people should stay.
That is their best material! LISTEN TO THIS GUY, they will say.

Most Scios got in and learned "ARC" early on. Affinity, reality, Communication=Understanding.
That IS their reality, whether you think it's good or bad.

So I say, why not use that to speak with them? Why not be caring, interested, willing
to communicate freely? Those are tools that they cannot avoid, OSA cannot use them
against any critics, nor can they use them to increase their trap.

I respect each person has different ways to communicate, and that is their
right. However, I do think you have to keep in mind how the over all public
sees you, too. Think of the kids, please. My guess is their "Stats" are THE lowest
at Christmas time...just on their own. They always have been. Why? No one cares
about their :bs: They are their own worst enemies, especially this time of year.
Let them show the world their own abusive, creepy attempts to manipulate.
But who's listening to me? Ok.........sorry. I got into that. Do what makes your heart
sing. Ya cannot lose then. \:D/ :heartsign:

I'm going to see Jason's movie! Laters :alien:

Tory/Magoo

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Re: Caged Scientologist boils Angry Gay Pope w/hot coffee

Post by J. Swift » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:46 am

My 2 cents: Donald is about performance art and activism. His home turf is Hollywood. Therefore the character and concept are clear:

1. He is angry
2. He is gay
3. He is a Pope

IOW, he is everything Scientology does not like: He is the Angry Gay Pope. When I see AGP in action or watch his videos I am fascinated. AGP's style of rapid-fire questioning is truly perceptive. Where AGP has exceeded the boundaries, Kenny "The Knifeman" Moxon has stepped in. AGP is vivid, animated, and educated. He has worked to expose the facts about a dangerous cult. What he is doing, when I really look at it, is fascinating as performance art and activism. AGP is extremely smart and knows how to dial into the psyche of Scientologists. Furthermore, AGP's gaydar is extremely effective: He can spot the closet cases in CoS. I like what AGP is doing. I would not do what he does, but as Hillary Clinton has told us, "It takes a village." Having said that, Winter Wonderland is off limits in my opinion. AGP will only alienate those of us who have raised children. AGP, you really need to rethink Winter Wonderland when serious critics are telling you to back off on it. I don't like it when you cross certain boundaries. Christmas is about children and not about you.

AGP, if some of the esteemed colleagues here at OCMB do not like you, I respect their point of view. In particular, Gumby is one hell of a great critic. What he has done in a systematic way is highly effective. Gumby's criticisms of AGP are part of Free Speech and speaks to OCMB's open dialogue. I like Gumby a lot because he speaks his mind and produces results. In terms of framing shots, I understand what Gumby is saying, however I understand what AGP is doing with his handheld camera work as a documentarian. Gumby has legitimate creative differences with AGP. As an audience member, I like AGP's stream of consciousness work. Likewise, I thought Gumby's "Harley Ride" clip was simply beautiful camera work. I am extremely visual and enjoy both styles.

I took the photo below of AGP at one of the early protests. I like the photo because it shows that AGP will ask direct, pointed questions to Scientologists -- and usually at high volume. What I tried to capture was the solidity of Scientology MEST and a surveillance camera as a backdrop to the human actors on a stage. This photo, at least for me, captured AGP, Anonymous, and a Scilon PI in a perfect moment:

Image


/////
Image

http://www.youtube.com/user/SurvivingScientology
http://www.survivingscientologyradio.com/
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contact: scienowriter@gmail.com

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Let go what happened on WWP.net?

Post by AngryGayPope » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:12 pm

You can't let it go because you can't get back all the people who were turned off by wwp.net and left the movement.

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What am I doing this for?

Post by AngryGayPope » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:16 pm

I'm doing all this to promote the dismantling of the church of scientology in its present form.

Enturbulation, video exposes and court cases drag Moxon and co. down, wasting time and resources better spent on poor folks like the Headleys. If I can help take a small amount of the pressure off them I'll do it. If I can get DM to torture a cultist based on what DM sees in my videos then I will make them. Maybe after he tortures them they will think harder about "Why am I putting up with this?"

Gumbythetruth

Re: Let go what happened on WWP.net?

Post by Gumbythetruth » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:32 pm

AngryGayPope wrote:You can't let it go because you can't get back all the people who were turned off by wwp.net and left the movement.
I understand where you are coming from AGP, sort of. Thing is, YOU are still active as are many others. Being at odd,s with an internet entity (WWP) should not @ the end of the day be the defacto reason why or why not an individual either protests publicly or personally for that matter.

Do you not protest against scientology for a reason? Is that reason influenced by what transpired in the past on WWP? If so, why? WWP is just a website. Learn from the mistakes made both online and within the public sector. Gather the best of what was learned. Then move forward. Everything changes my friend. What was once effective may not work over the long haul. Adapt! Your foe certainly will. If not, past failures will repeat themselves.

Your zeal and passion is admirable AGP. I personally may not care for your brand of activism, yet @ the end of the day,if I am truely honest with myself, I must accept the fact people differ in the hows and whys they expose a social evil.

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Re: Let go what happened on WWP.net?

Post by Smurf » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:59 pm

Gumbythetruth wrote:
AngryGayPope wrote:You can't let it go because you can't get back all the people who were turned off by wwp.net and left the movement.
I understand where you are coming from AGP, sort of. Thing is, YOU are still active as are many others. Being at odd,s with an internet entity (WWP) should not @ the end of the day be the defacto reason why or why not an individual either protests publicly or personally for that matter.

Your zeal and passion is admirable AGP. I personally may not care for your brand of activism, yet @ the end of the day,if I am truely honest with myself, I must accept the fact people differ in the hows and whys they expose a social evil.
AGP often refers to the large numbers of people leaving quitting the protests and leaving WWP as the reasons for Anonymous losing its effectiveness. If one looks back to the advent of Anonymous & 4chan taking on Scientology, the age range of the movement consisted mostly of teens to young adults who protested because it was fun and they were further motivated by the reactions they got from Scientology staff.. cut, run & hide from protesters.

Most of the former movement have moved on to other things in their lives. It has absolutely nothing to do with the "failure" of Anonymous or WWP... many have gone onto college, gotten jobs, have taken up other more worthwhile causes, taken up other social pursuits, etc. It's quite depressing when a protest is announced on WWP and a very small number of anons bother to show up anymore.. but that's life. At the last protest on L Ron Hubbard Way, it took just a few anons, Tory, Lynn, and myself to turn the area into a ghost town and to watch the Scios engage in "curtain tech."

I recall a decade ago that OCMB was a very busy board... today it is different. Many people that used to post on OCMB have also moved on with their lives and engaged in other pursuits not related to Scientology.

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Unfortunately negative attitudes on message boards is toxic

Post by AngryGayPope » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:12 pm

Unfortunately negative attitudes on messages boards are toxic to teamwork. There would be a lot more people interested if we had an "invitation only" message board where anyone could read but only selected people would be allowed to write.

When I was at Winter WOnderland I spent about five minutes looking around and BOTH times there was intense interest from passersby and people taking classes at the music center behind the location. Unfortunately I screwed up and only some of that contest got into the video. Not that anyone wants to talk about the video, what with its OSHA violations and I taking an expresso in the face for the movement.

Interest is very easy to generate. Its shameful to see so much of it wasted by the obnoxiousness of people such as the owners of wwp.net and esmb who act like they are providing a forum to fight scientology when, in reality, they are just another co-opted platform for the cult. Have you been to the Cult Awareness Network offices at Hwd & Vine? I have. And guess what, they are not there anymore!

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