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 Post subject: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:21 am 
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Lately, I have been fascinated with all things criticizing Scientology. I think reading about the religion and it's insanity can be as mesmerizing at times as it must for early recruits receiving indoctrination. I've been watching things on-line, listening to testimonials, reading the books of those who escaped, and then I found this message board. I have no personal relationships with Scientologists that I'm aware of, but I do relate to PTSD, to being bullied, and I am fascinated by the social constructs within its culture and its implications on our world. For me, I feel like I can understand Nazism much more when I read about CoS, and how that could have happened in history, although Hitler, another zealot and madman, didn't make Nazism a religion. I am reading Marc Headley's book now with the same sense of awe and dread that I felt reading Margaret Atwood's, "A Handmaid's Tale" only I know it happened and is still happening today. I just finished Janet Reitman's book and the chapters on Lisa McPherson were beyond heartbreaking. Hopefully for Lisa, and other members like her, there will one day be justice. For Shawn Lonsdale as well.

Even though I know we post anonymous here, I still feel afraid, like what if they hacked in and caught me talking about them. I'm amazed at the extent of their ability to create fear. I grew up in a house like that, where you couldn't trust what you were told and you always felt watched. In some ways, escaping Scientology is a liberation story for any of us who can relate to a "military state." I admire the courage of the people who continue to speak out, even when it has cost them their families, and much more.


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:34 pm 
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barbiedoll wrote:
Even though I know we post anonymous here, I still feel afraid, like what if they hacked in and caught me talking about them. I'm amazed at the extent of their ability to create fear. I grew up in a house like that, where you couldn't trust what you were told and you always felt watched. In some ways, escaping Scientology is a liberation story for any of us who can relate to a "military state." I admire the courage of the people who continue to speak out, even when it has cost them their families, and much more.

They won't go after you because you do not have first-hand data damaging to the cult; you are not suing them, either.

They know who I am because I left plenty of clues on purpose. But they are not going after me for the same reason -- even though I am an ex-Scientologist, unfortunately, I do not have original data harmful to them.

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“This OT shit is driving me insane. On a positive side, I laugh a lot these days because I’m at a funny farm.”
L. Ron Hubbard

L. Ron Hubbard era un maestro de masturbacion fisica y mental.


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:32 am 
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Thanks for replying. Can I ask how long you were with the church? Unless that's too personal.


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:36 am 
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barbiedoll wrote:
For me, I feel like I can understand Nazism much more when I read about CoS, and how that could have happened in history, although Hitler, another zealot and madman, didn't make Nazism a religion.

I believe you can understand Nazism better by learning about scientology. Scientology = Nazism + New Age Alien Cult. When I read about various Totalitarian States, I am easily reminded of my experiences in CoS.

For those of us who were immersed in scientology for years it was truly a profound, life changing experience. For me personally, I was aware that if I did not get out it would kill me. Most scientologists I have known who have died, died too young imo. I know few scientologists who simply died of old age. Most have died from cancer, heart attack, disease, accident or suicide. Scientology uses you and sucks the life out of you, and all the while you are believing it is making you more alive.

My comments are in regard to CoS circa 80's, 90's and 2000's. I have no personal experience with Freezone or Indy scientology.

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“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:32 am 
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Thanks for this, Dorothy, that's painful about the Scientologists you mention. Is there a place on the site where they talk more about Indy scientology/Freezone? I don't know those terms well, but I keep seeing Marty Rathbun talking about having issues with the church, but not with the tech. I know this may sound good in interviews and may keep some current Scientologists from seeing him as completely biased, but I feel like the craziness is in the tech. Maybe in the Dianetic years it wasn't so bad, but during the period where LRH was in hiding and just sending out those missives, he seemed bat-shit crazy, and I feel like if this is what they are also standing behind - then I don't know how they can defend it, especially the homophobic stuff that LRH wrote, fair game, etc. In other words, I feel that D.M. is definitely problematic, sociopathic and sick, but I feel that he gets permission in his mind to do the things he does because of the pathology in the tech, which is flawed and dangerous. I wish Rathbun and others would clarify this.


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:44 am 
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Welcome, barbiedoll. :)
I don't think the cult could keep up with all of the critical comments posted about it on the web, even if they had as many members as they claim to, and each one was working for OSA.

It's always wise to be discreet and not give out personal details; especially if you don't do that, you're safe. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:01 pm 
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barbiedoll wrote:
Thanks for replying. Can I ask how long you were with the church? Unless that's too personal.

Not very long. I spent 6 months slaving for Sea Org, 3 months getting to Level 0, and another 2 years attending Scientology seminars without moving up the Bridge (I did not have time for the Bridge courses -- I had a regular job and I was taking stock market licence courses; soon after I got my stock broker licence I begun working on my MS in Financial Engineering).
You can find my complete Scientology story at the thread Scientific Research Showing that the Engrams do not Exist.

_________________
“This OT shit is driving me insane. On a positive side, I laugh a lot these days because I’m at a funny farm.”
L. Ron Hubbard

L. Ron Hubbard era un maestro de masturbacion fisica y mental.


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:30 pm 
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Scientific Research Showing the Engrams Do Not Exist, by Demented LRH, Dec 11, 2011, viewtopic.php?f=9&t=45506


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:37 pm 
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I'm also fascinated by scientology even though I've never been a member. But I'm fascinated by all cults, especially UFO cults. I've only had peripheral run ins with scientology, being approached on the street in Honolulu by scientologists, seeing the buildings they've restored, actually entering COS churches to examine what the heck was going on. I do research in the DC area and recently stumbled into the fact that the church has a strong presence in DC. I've also come across declassified CIA documents that talk about the church and how they had infiltrated many government alphabet soup agencies.

A friend of mine found an E-meter at the dump and placed it on eBay. COS lawyers contacted my friend and was told to take it off eBay as COS holds the copyright to the machines and only they can sell them.


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:03 am 
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skeptic2girl wrote:
Welcome, barbiedoll. :)
I don't think the cult could keep up with all of the critical comments posted about it on the web, even if they had as many members as they claim to, and each one was working for OSA.

It's always wise to be discreet and not give out personal details; especially if you don't do that, you're safe. :)


Thanks Skeptic2girl, I appreciate this. It's funny how they get in your head and make you feel that you are potentially in trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:47 pm 
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barbiedoll wrote:
Thanks for this, Dorothy, that's painful about the Scientologists you mention. Is there a place on the site where they talk more about Indy scientology/Freezone? I don't know those terms well, but I keep seeing Marty Rathbun talking about having issues with the church, but not with the tech. I know this may sound good in interviews and may keep some current Scientologists from seeing him as completely biased, but I feel like the craziness is in the tech. Maybe in the Dianetic years it wasn't so bad, but during the period where LRH was in hiding and just sending out those missives, he seemed bat-shit crazy, and I feel like if this is what they are also standing behind - then I don't know how they can defend it, especially the homophobic stuff that LRH wrote, fair game, etc. In other words, I feel that D.M. is definitely problematic, sociopathic and sick, but I feel that he gets permission in his mind to do the things he does because of the pathology in the tech, which is flawed and dangerous. I wish Rathbun and others would clarify this.

These are difficult and complex questions you ask (and don't expect any clarification from Rathbun and Co.). Indy/Freezone is basically scientologists acting outside the organized church structure. There is little if any hard evidence that they have become abusive, beyond their verbal attacks against their critics. Some critics believe they are abusive for what they fail to do- for example denouncing LRon tech for being itself dangerous.

My personal opinion is that "the tech" is an unscientific, incomplete, un-researched and questionable psychological practice. Auditing and training can be harmless and also harmful depending on the person and the situation. The problem is you never really know what you're going to get. When you include Xenu and OT levels yes it is dangerous because it can create delusional people. Not all OTs become delusional or crazy but enough of them do to outlaw the practice imo. But then I know of quite a few religion-induced delusional and crazy Christians and Muslims too. That's where it becomes complex. I recommend Hugh Urban's work to help get a grip on some of these questions.

IMO I believe that it is only when you combine the scientology "tech" with a government-supported organized religious structure that it becomes (proven to be) inherently dangerous. Without the U.S. government's sanction and blessing, the scientology practice would be kept in check, or disappear. I personally hold the U.S. government responsible for all deaths that happen in all sectors of scientology, because without their support, scientology members could potentially be held fully accountable for their abusive/negligent acts.

For example, if scientology did not have official religious status, the Headley's legal outcome would have been much different because CoS would not have been able to pull the "ministerial exception" card in court. They would have been subject to labor laws and guilty of forced labor and other illegal acts.

So the important focus would be on how they got their religious status in the first place, reviewing that as well as their corporate cloaking and the personal inurement of Dave, Tom, etc. In other words all the things scientology does that violates their coveted religious status.

If their religious status were to be questioned or revoked, then "the tech" would be once again open to scrutiny by the AMA, APA, ASA, etc. That would take us back in time to the 50's when LRon thought up the "religion angle" to escape having to face scrutiny from these authorities, in the first place.

I think Hubbard was really a coward who was always running away from something. He was completely unable to face his own music. That's why he had to make up the story about wrestling the Kodiak bear, to create the mythology about how brave he was. The U.S. government became scientolgy's great enabler when it gave its official sanction on the practice. And I believe that is why we have all this scientology trouble now.

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“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:12 am 
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Dorothy, you make a lot of good points. Hubbard, Miscavige and company got their religious status by Fair Gaming the IRS, taking out ads, going through their garbage, probably making serious threats to their families. It got so bad that literally that struct a deal for tax-exempt status and basically the deal was, "Give us the status and we'll make all the Black Ops or Intelligence go away. The IRS was exhausted, they had spent a lot of money, and they were being sued by like 200 individual Scientologists, cases that would drag on and on and on. In the end, they caved in.

I agree with you about your point about the Headley - really tragic, because if any one has a case it's them. What I don't understand is, priests who are pedophiles don't get to claim religious status when children are abused. (I'm not saying all, just the ones who have been prosecuted). My point is, where does the law draw the line about what is actionable based on religion and what is not. It feels random and arbitrary but I don't know the law.


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:48 am 
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Quote:
I don't know how [the indies] can defend it, especially the homophobic stuff that LRH wrote, fair game, etc.


Well, they claim it was a different world when LRH wrote some of these questionable things (like the racist, homophobic stuff) and that he wrote thousands of pages and spoke for hours in lectures and you can always find something that doesn't sound right...but other than the nitpicky stuff he was such a great man. Also, they claim that Hubbard cancelled fair game and that DM brought it back. They even say that the RPF was a good thing back under LRH because it only lasted months instead of years.

It's funny what you can convince yourself of if you want.

LRH even disowned one of his daughter's (or claimed she wasn't his), had 2 wives at the same time, and wasn't on speaking terms with 3-4 of his 7 kids when he died. I'm too tired to go back and figure out which ones (Quentin Hubbard was dead, having committed suicide, so he's one, obviously). But even that doesn't faze the indies.

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"A man may build himself a throne of bayonets, but he cannot sit on it." -William Ralph Inge

Watch the Los Angeles press conference here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ScilonTV#p/


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:59 pm 
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I believe LRH's daughter Suzette (sp?) blew and is out though I don't think she's ever spoken out. Arnie Lerma said his crime while in the Sea Org was having a relationship with her. He blew. LRH's grand daughter has recently blew, she's the daughter of Diana Hubbard. At this point the only one of LRH's children connected to CoS.

LRH's son Ron Jr., blew, changed his last name to DeWolf and spoke out against his own father. He was harassed essentially his entire life until his death for exposing his father LRH and Scientology. Below is a link where he is speaking under oath for ..

1982 CW Scientology Hearings - Ron DeWolf - Day 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elFdBCldOz4

You can wiki Ron DeWolf and read more up, there is also alot of info out there by him. Interviews and such.

Despite LRH's writings on (Second Dynamic) family, marriage and children his statistic sorta proves he was a piss poor husband and father.


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 Post subject: Re: Scientology and Dystopia
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:12 pm 
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barbiedoll wrote:
Thanks for this, Dorothy, that's painful about the Scientologists you mention. Is there a place on the site where they talk more about Indy scientology/Freezone? I don't know those terms well, but I keep seeing Marty Rathbun talking about having issues with the church, but not with the tech. I know this may sound good in interviews and may keep some current Scientologists from seeing him as completely biased, but I feel like the craziness is in the tech. Maybe in the Dianetic years it wasn't so bad, but during the period where LRH was in hiding and just sending out those missives, he seemed bat-shit crazy, and I feel like if this is what they are also standing behind - then I don't know how they can defend it, especially the homophobic stuff that LRH wrote, fair game, etc. In other words, I feel that D.M. is definitely problematic, sociopathic and sick, but I feel that he gets permission in his mind to do the things he does because of the pathology in the tech, which is flawed and dangerous. I wish Rathbun and others would clarify this.


I think this is one of the most insightful posts I've read here.

I do feel admiration for Marty and the indies, though. They have a right to their beliefs, and they've shown themselves willing to engage in a fairly open dialogue with people of other faiths. (I believe Mark Rinder actually attended a multi-faith conference in Canada a couple of months ago, representing independent Scientology. Probably the first time any Sci spokesperson has ever acknowledged the validity of other religions, rather insisting that WE are the sole purveyors of Truth.


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