EST and Scientology

A place to post and debate the Church of Scientology.
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secularpatriot
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by secularpatriot » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:15 pm

El Jefe' wrote:Also, if you want to quit doing Landmark no one will try to disconect or fair game you.
This was not my experience working in an EST Transformational Technologies franchise. When an employee quit or was fired, they were told that the other workers would no longer be speaking to them. The rest of us were told were not to contact the former employee as they were living "a conversation for no possibilities" that would taint our collective work.

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Smurf
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by Smurf » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:26 pm

Does anyone remember the film, 'Semi-Tough', in 1977, starring Burt Reynolds (a huge star back then), Kris Kristofferson & Jill Clayburgh? It was a very funny film and it parodied EST & Werner Erhard in the film. The actor portraying the Werner Erhard character in the film, Bert Convy, attended EST training before doing the film.

EST, in the 80s, got alot of bad PR because some attendees claimed they were forced to forgo bathroom breaks and had to urinate where they sat. This led to many motels refusing to rent ballrooms to EST. This was parodied in the film..

"The film includes a parody of the Werner Erhard and Erhard Seminars Training, with B.E.A.T. as a stand-in for est. In American Film Now, Friedrich Bismark is simply described as "the Werner Erhard character". The Grove Book of Hollywood describes Bert Convy as a "Werner Erhard-lookalike", in his portrayal of Friedrich Bismark.

After Semi-Tough's release in 1977, Bert Convy was contacted by a number of est followers, as well as by Werner Erhard. After Convy appeared on The Tonight Show and discussed his experiences attending Erhard Seminars Training in preparation for his role as Friedrich Bismark, he received a letter from Erhard stating: "it would be great for us to get together".

Of the est seminar itself, Convy recalled that when another attendee complained of a headache during the course, the group leader told him to "experience it", and when another attendee wet his pants, he was told to "experience the warmth". In a scene from the film, a woman exclaims to Friedrich Bismark in the middle of a seminar: "I peed in my pants and it felt good."

During actual filming on Semi-Tough, Convy received a late-night phone call from actress Valerie Harper, known in Hollywood as a devoted student of Werner Erhard. She related to Convy that Erhard was "pleased" with the role, and she wished him success in the film. Convy suspected that her real reason for calling was to subtly pressure him to go easy on his parody of Erhard in the film. Harper is mentioned by name in the completed film."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Tough

"Online rumors that I had read about “not being allowed to go to the bathroom” were totally unfounded. The Forum leader explained that he couldn’t guarantee any results (“getting it”, in Forum lingo) to a participant if he wasn’t there for the full experience. That being said, anyone was permitted, though not encouraged, to walk out of the room at any time for whatever reason (e.g. cigarette, phone, bathroom, emotional overwhelm)."

http://thirtytwothousanddays.com/blog/2 ... ightenment

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Wieber
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by Wieber » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:34 pm

barbiedoll wrote:Can I ask, El Jefe, did you feel you benefited at all from Scientology?
This wasn't directed at me but I have a response, if you don't mind.

From $cientology I managed to overcome my shyness with people. This came from body routing not from the courses. I think I also benefited from the communication course and from some of the "study technology." Those benefits were not worth what I paid for them. I would say they were probably a .000003% or less return on investment.

I must say that when I left $cientology and started reading about how cults work and where this stuff comes from that's when I got extreme "gains" beyond my wildest expectations.

If you're interested you'll find the resource list here:
http://www.worldcat.org/profiles/Wieber/lists/563909

I've also compiled a list of books specifically on $cientology. It probably isn't complete. It's here:
http://www.worldcat.org/profiles/Wieber/lists/1768991
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

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barbiedoll
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by barbiedoll » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:50 am

gray_geek wrote:
barbiedoll wrote: I just heard Marty Rathbun great ripped apart on a radio show, trying to defend the church teachings apart from the church (and the Xenu story.)
Can you post the link where I can read/listen to that radio show ? TIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JguNbFJo3c

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barbiedoll
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by barbiedoll » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:51 am

secularpatriot wrote:
El Jefe' wrote:Also, if you want to quit doing Landmark no one will try to disconect or fair game you.
This was not my experience working in an EST Transformational Technologies franchise. When an employee quit or was fired, they were told that the other workers would no longer be speaking to them. The rest of us were told were not to contact the former employee as they were living "a conversation for no possibilities" that would taint our collective work.

Fascinating.

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El Jefe'
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by El Jefe' » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:36 pm

barbiedoll wrote: Can I ask, El Jefe, did you feel you benefited at all from Scientology? I've often thought that maybe, as a student of mental thought, that I should read Dianetics, there was even a time when I thought, maybe I'll take a Scientology course or two. But after reading what I've read, I'm uncomfortable even passing by the organization in my city. I wonder if you understand or agree with the point of the independent Scientologists. I just heard Marty Rathbun great ripped apart on a radio show, trying to defend the church teachings apart from the church (and the Xenu story.)
There is some benefit in Scientology, but most of it was derived elsewhere. For instance, they have a technique called a touch assist where you basically touch different parts of a person's body to help them to feel better when they are ill (Cliff notes version). This is very similar to a technique that is at least a hundred years old called Reiki (I am a Reiki Master). Big difference is that Reiki isn't packaged with The RPF, Crush Regging....)

As a Business Pschologist, I have also found some of the admin tech to be benificial, but then again that too was taken from other practices which you don't have to disconnect from your friends and family to get; I also think that my whole Masters Degree cost me much less than "going OT" would have.

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El Jefe'
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by El Jefe' » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:50 pm

secularpatriot wrote:
El Jefe' wrote:Also, if you want to quit doing Landmark no one will try to disconect or fair game you.
This was not my experience working in an EST Transformational Technologies franchise. When an employee quit or was fired, they were told that the other workers would no longer be speaking to them. The rest of us were told were not to contact the former employee as they were living "a conversation for no possibilities" that would taint our collective work.
That may have been so in the EST training but is not so in Landmark. I have given Landmark some very harsh criticism on Facebook and other media yet I am able to do this under my own name and I even get invited to go to their events and take courses there.

That organization's main problem, IMHO, is that they constantly nag their participants in their programs to bring guests. I have been in their seminars, for instance a 10 week, 3 hour an eve seminar on Money, where they spent at least the first hour nagging people to bring guests. The course leaders effectiveness is measured by the number of guests. The guests attend an introduction to the Landmark Forum in another room while the seminar is going on, it is all really weird.

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barbiedoll
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by barbiedoll » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:52 pm

Smurf wrote:Does anyone remember the film, 'Semi-Tough', in 1977, starring Burt Reynolds (a huge star back then), Kris Kristofferson & Jill Clayburgh? It was a very funny film and it parodied EST & Werner Erhard in the film. The actor portraying the Werner Erhard character in the film, Bert Convy, attended EST training before doing the film.

EST, in the 80s, got alot of bad PR because some attendees claimed they were forced to forgo bathroom breaks and had to urinate where they sat. This led to many motels refusing to rent ballrooms to EST. This was parodied in the film..

"The film includes a parody of the Werner Erhard and Erhard Seminars Training, with B.E.A.T. as a stand-in for est. In American Film Now, Friedrich Bismark is simply described as "the Werner Erhard character". The Grove Book of Hollywood describes Bert Convy as a "Werner Erhard-lookalike", in his portrayal of Friedrich Bismark.

After Semi-Tough's release in 1977, Bert Convy was contacted by a number of est followers, as well as by Werner Erhard. After Convy appeared on The Tonight Show and discussed his experiences attending Erhard Seminars Training in preparation for his role as Friedrich Bismark, he received a letter from Erhard stating: "it would be great for us to get together".

Of the est seminar itself, Convy recalled that when another attendee complained of a headache during the course, the group leader told him to "experience it", and when another attendee wet his pants, he was told to "experience the warmth". In a scene from the film, a woman exclaims to Friedrich Bismark in the middle of a seminar: "I peed in my pants and it felt good."

During actual filming on Semi-Tough, Convy received a late-night phone call from actress Valerie Harper, known in Hollywood as a devoted student of Werner Erhard. She related to Convy that Erhard was "pleased" with the role, and she wished him success in the film. Convy suspected that her real reason for calling was to subtly pressure him to go easy on his parody of Erhard in the film. Harper is mentioned by name in the completed film."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Tough

"Online rumors that I had read about “not being allowed to go to the bathroom” were totally unfounded. The Forum leader explained that he couldn’t guarantee any results (“getting it”, in Forum lingo) to a participant if he wasn’t there for the full experience. That being said, anyone was permitted, though not encouraged, to walk out of the room at any time for whatever reason (e.g. cigarette, phone, bathroom, emotional overwhelm)."

http://thirtytwothousanddays.com/blog/2 ... ightenment
I do remember this film, need to see it again. It is horrifying to me that a grown man or woman would sit in a seat and pee on themselves because a forum/workshop leader told them they couldn't go to bathroom. What is this kindergarden?

I can't imagine they posted guards at the doors if you tried to leave...but what the will do is create a psychological situation where they make you feel like you are "giving up" "letting the group down" "showing resistance" if you have to leave the room, making it seem like going to the bathroom is a situation of mind over matter, creating a form of dissociation, like some of the early Scientology exercises - given you the sense that you will be humiliated in front of the group or processed, or that you've let the leader down, an especially big deal for those of us with Mommy and Daddy issues (I'm not being sarcastic here.) This is the same dynamic that I believe played out in the James Arthur Ray sweat lodge/leadership retreat debacle, or the recent situation where people were burned doing the "firewalk" in an Anthony Robbins workshop. With Ray, people sat there, not listening to their bodies, but following his instructions not to leave, even though he'd had something similar with a group at the same place before. One woman described what happened to her daughter, and said the medical report basically read that her daughter was "cooked to death."

Turtlez
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by Turtlez » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:32 pm

EST and Scientology
Last edited by Turtlez on Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Turtlez
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by Turtlez » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:39 pm

EST and Scientology
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El Jefe'
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by El Jefe' » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:09 am

I would recommend the DVD, Transformation the Life and Legacy of Werner Erhard. One thing I would say is that while Erhard wanted to make a difference in the world and if he made big bucks doing so wouldn't turn it down. Hubbard on the other hand was strictly in it for the bucks.

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Demented LRH
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by Demented LRH » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:58 pm

Turtlez wrote:.
est was awesome. Yes, the "intense" parts were intense but they were just good theatre at best, the people I was with laughed about it on pee and meal breaks. It was all designed to shock us a bit and stir up stuff and have us look at ourselves in a new way even though seeing anything in a new way is almost impossible since we all think we know everything!!!!! We walked away refreshed with some new point of view that we came up with for ourselves. The doors were NEVER locked, people went and peed. But it was the 70's people were experimenting with all kinds of things, intense was more ok then ( intense is very much not ok today as it was then ). I left est and was a new man (18 years old at the time), just way more balls, and gumption and freedom with the run of the mill concerns of an 18 year old man. I never did one single thing I did not want to do in est, I felt respected, heard , listened to and like I had gotten my $ worth. And it was a great piece of experiential theatre for sure.
Yes, to look deep inside and see the engrams! But those things do not exist, do they?
“This OT shit is driving me insane. On a positive side, I laugh a lot these days because I’m at a funny farm.”
L. Ron Hubbard

L. Ron Hubbard era un maestro de masturbacion fisica y mental.

Turtlez
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by Turtlez » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:28 pm

EST and Scientology
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Demented LRH
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by Demented LRH » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:49 pm

Turtlez wrote:
Demented LRH wrote:
Turtlez wrote:.
Yes, to look deep inside and see the engrams! But those things do not exist, do they?

@ Demented LRH

In est, for 4 long days, participants (customers) looked (if they wish to) into the how they lived their lives, at things they have done, choices and decisions and conclusions they have made about themselves, about others and about the world in the past and how those past based things may be unknowingly still effecting how they live and what is possible for them to do, think and be in their own lives. And I saw such things.

What are "engrams"? Whatever they are, they were not part of est.
What you described here is a psychoanalytical procedure that has nothing to do with Scientology or Dianetics auditing. I have Freud’s book, The Interpretation of Dreams, which describes this procedure in greater detail. Whether the procedure works or not is debatable (I think it is useless), but it was not developed by Hubbard.

EST claimed in the past that they use techniques developed by L. Ron Hubbard, and yet you said that EST do not use the engram concept. Why then they claim that they use Hubbard’s Tech, and why did the Church of Scientology called their version of Tech “Squirrel Tech”? Why did CoS battle EST over the copyright issues?
“This OT shit is driving me insane. On a positive side, I laugh a lot these days because I’m at a funny farm.”
L. Ron Hubbard

L. Ron Hubbard era un maestro de masturbacion fisica y mental.

Turtlez
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Re: EST and Scientology

Post by Turtlez » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:10 pm

EST and Scientology
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