Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

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Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby Smurf » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:24 pm


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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby Demented LRH » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:57 pm

Smurf, usually you give links to very good videos. But this one I did not get -- Marty talks about difficulties of communicating with the people who do not speak English, and mentions Lisa's name only twice.
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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby Smurf » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:35 am

I post information relevant to Scientology; not only that which I have an opinion on.

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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby barbiedoll » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:47 am

Smurf wrote:I post information relevant to Scientology; not only that which I have an opinion on.


I remember reading this in the Reitman book - Not only were some of the people looking after Lisa not Scientologists, but they probably had no idea about the Introspection Rundown (which, according to Marty in other interviews, only lasts two days) she was supposed to be receiving, and probably didn't have it explained in their language - in other words, they had no idea what the hell was going on or what they were supposed to do other than babysit her and keep her in bed. The idea that they could be that neglectful of someone having a psychic breakdown, watching her literally die in front of them is just unbelievable. What I didn't know is that the lawyer was in the room when the destroyed the evidence. I watched him on TV denying Lisa had been neglected at all, he made it sound like she had a bad case of poison ivy at summer camp. The whole thing is sick.

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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby Smurf » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:57 pm

barbiedoll wrote:I remember reading this in the Reitman book - Not only were some of the people looking after Lisa not Scientologists, but they probably had no idea about the Introspection Rundown (which, according to Marty in other interviews, only lasts two days) she was supposed to be receiving, and probably didn't have it explained in their language - in other words, they had no idea what the hell was going on or what they were supposed to do other than babysit her and keep her in bed.
This is not correct. Only Scientologists looked after Lisa.. Reitman was referring to the non-English speaking staff whose job was hotel upkeep & maintenance.. not the executive staff specifically assigned to Lisa's case like Janis Johnson-Fitzgerald, Brian Anderson, Alain Kartuzinski, Susanne Reid, Valerie Demange, David Houghton, Rita Boykin and the 3 Scientologists that were whisked out of the country when Clearwater Police detectives began investigating her death: Suzanne Schnuremberger, Ildiko Cannovas and Laura Arrunada.

Non-Scientologists are not permitted into the Fort Harrison unless they are chaperoned, and none would have been permitted to be near a Scientologist undergoing a Rundown. The non-English speaking personnel were watched intensely while they were in Lisa's room & ordered to have no contact with her.

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/complaint.htm

http://www.trans4mind.com/clearing/Pro& ... /lisam.htm

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/mcphtrib.htm

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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby mr_bad » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:59 pm

I see Marty admitted destroying documents, which is probably an admission of a felony.

I see Marty blaming Lisa's death on the immigrants from European countries, who don't speak English very well.

What I don't see is Marty pointing out that Maria was held against her will or that her death was due to people practicing medicine without a license because that's what the "tech" told them to do.
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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby Smurf » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:12 pm

mr_bad wrote:I see Marty admitted destroying documents, which is probably an admission of a felony. What I don't see is Marty pointing out that Maria was held against her will or that her death was due to people practicing medicine without a license because that's what the "tech" told them to do.
First, it was Lisa, not Maria.

Second, Marty can't be held liable for destruction of evidence. The Florida statute of limitations for the crime has passed.. 4 years.

http://akerman.com/documents/SpoliationOfEvidence.pdf

I suspect much of what Marty Rathbun & Mike Rinder participated in, of a criminal nature, while working for Scientology, has exceeded the statute of limitations.

Besides, I seriously doubt that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement or the Clearwater Police would be interested in re-visiting the Lisa McPherson case.

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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby barbiedoll » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:03 am

Smurf wrote:
barbiedoll wrote:I remember reading this in the Reitman book - Not only were some of the people looking after Lisa not Scientologists, but they probably had no idea about the Introspection Rundown (which, according to Marty in other interviews, only lasts two days) she was supposed to be receiving, and probably didn't have it explained in their language - in other words, they had no idea what the hell was going on or what they were supposed to do other than babysit her and keep her in bed.
This is not correct. Only Scientologists looked after Lisa.. Reitman was referring to the non-English speaking staff whose job was hotel upkeep & maintenance.. not the executive staff specifically assigned to Lisa's case like Janis Johnson-Fitzgerald, Brian Anderson, Alain Kartuzinski, Susanne Reid, Valerie Demange, David Houghton, Rita Boykin and the 3 Scientologists that were whisked out of the country when Clearwater Police detectives began investigating her death: Suzanne Schnuremberger, Ildiko Cannovas and Laura Arrunada.

Non-Scientologists are not permitted into the Fort Harrison unless they are chaperoned, and none would have been permitted to be near a Scientologist undergoing a Rundown. The non-English speaking personnel were watched intensely while they were in Lisa's room & ordered to have no contact with her.

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/complaint.htm

http://www.trans4mind.com/clearing/Pro& ... /lisam.htm

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/mcphtrib.htm


Smurf, thank you for clarifying this. Clearly I misrepresented Reitman's reporting in my post, but for those who haven't read her book, I think it's excellent and I'm sure she got this right/made this distinction clear in her text.

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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby barbiedoll » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:08 am

Smurf wrote:
mr_bad wrote:I see Marty admitted destroying documents, which is probably an admission of a felony. What I don't see is Marty pointing out that Maria was held against her will or that her death was due to people practicing medicine without a license because that's what the "tech" told them to do.
First, it was Lisa, not Maria.

Second, Marty can't be held liable for destruction of evidence. The Florida statute of limitations for the crime has passed.. 4 years.

http://akerman.com/documents/SpoliationOfEvidence.pdf

I suspect much of what Marty Rathbun & Mike Rinder participated in, of a criminal nature, while working for Scientology, has exceeded the statute of limitations.

Besides, I seriously doubt that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement or the Clearwater Police would be interested in re-visiting the Lisa McPherson case.


I am grateful to Marty for offering more details for those of us who want to know what really happened. And with the statute of limitations having passed, I don't think police have any case, nor do they want the headache. I believe there are other cases however, D.M's mother-in-law Barrett and Shawn Lonsdale and others "suicides", where there is more stories to be told, but probably never will be, because the statute of limitations will never run out on those....

I want to be clear. I'm not accusing Marty Rathbun of anything here, nor Mike Rinder. But someone knows what happened in these cases and many others, and I don't believe it is what we've been told...

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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby Wieber » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:36 pm

Google Natalie Wood. Check out the news stories. No $cientology connection at all but what's going on with that case is interesting.
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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby Dorothy » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:50 pm

Wieber wrote:Google Natalie Wood. Check out the news stories. No $cientology connection at all but what's going on with that case is interesting.

Oh ya!! Thanks for reminding Wieber. I was watching for this a year ago, but never made the Lisa McPherspon connection! If Natalie Wood's case can be re-opened after all these years- so can Lisa's!
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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby Dorothy » Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:11 pm

Mat Pesch shed some light on Marty's claim (he corroborated it actually) that non-English-speaking foreigners were looking after Lisa. Mat (and Marty) were referring to the low-level people that did the shit work 24-7. The higher ups (like Alain Kartuzinski who was one of Lisa's C/Ses) did not personally do the daily force-feeding, cleaning and checking. The watcher job is more like the kind of stuff orderlies do in hospitals- clean bed pans, bring food, observe, that sort of thing.

Anyways, Mat Pesch was talking about how the Division heads (he was the Treasury Sec at the time) were summonsed to emergency meetings and forced to give up one or two of their staff to cover the 24 hour watch schedule. They weren't even told what they were giving up their staff for, they just had to give up a staff member for some top secret "security issue". These 24 hour baby sitters needed no special qualifications. They were not execs nor were they trained auditors. Mat said he tapped his least valuable staffer for the job, a foreigner who spoke little to no English.

Of course the OSA people and the Case Supervisors overseeing Lisa's programming (i.e. managing what was done) were not grunts/newbies or "clueless foreigners". But the people doing the actual hourly watching/grunt work WERE low level/newbie untrained possible non-English speaking staff. I don't care what paperwork the Cult presented to the courts, because they lie, falsify and make up whatever shit they want.

Personally I think this point IS important. NOT to make excuses for anyone- quite the contrary. It's all part of HOW CoS was negligent and caused Lisa's death imo.

People who want to hang Marty (or Dave or LRon) or any one individual for Lisa's death are clueless about how Cults work. That is why Courts can't get a grip of Cult Crimes either. Courts have to find INDIVIDUALS guilty. Our Justice System has not evolved to address Group Crime- yet.
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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby Smurf » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:15 pm

Dorothy wrote:Personally I think this point IS important. NOT to make excuses for anyone- quite the contrary. It's all part of HOW CoS was negligent and caused Lisa's death imo.

People who want to hang Marty (or Dave or LRon) or any one individual for Lisa's death are clueless about how Cults work. That is why Courts can't get a grip of Cult Crimes either. Courts have to find INDIVIDUALS guilty. Our Justice System has not evolved to address Group Crime- yet.
Because the Sea Org is run like the U.S. military, it has a command & rank structure in place, which added to the problems involving Lisa.

If you read the police interview transcripts, one thing becomes very apparent. Low-level staff were trained to suppress their individual feelings and to follow orders. Laura Arrunada (Sandoval) expressed to police she was a trained medical professional in Mexico & had misgivings about the way Lisa was being treated, but she was FOLLOWING ORDERS. Janis Johnson was her supervisor & Laura did what Janis ordered.

It was the same with the other two women that fled the country after Lisa's death. Ildika Cannovas (Szabo) & Suzanne Schuremberger (Green), through their prospective attorneys, outside the U.S., claimed they were only following orders and believed they had no personal responsibility for Lisa's negligent care.

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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby barbiedoll » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:17 pm

Smurf wrote:
Dorothy wrote:Personally I think this point IS important. NOT to make excuses for anyone- quite the contrary. It's all part of HOW CoS was negligent and caused Lisa's death imo.

People who want to hang Marty (or Dave or LRon) or any one individual for Lisa's death are clueless about how Cults work. That is why Courts can't get a grip of Cult Crimes either. Courts have to find INDIVIDUALS guilty. Our Justice System has not evolved to address Group Crime- yet.
Because the Sea Org is run like the U.S. military, it has a command & rank structure in place, which added to the problems involving Lisa.

If you read the police interview transcripts, one thing becomes very apparent. Low-level staff were trained to suppress their individual feelings and to follow orders. Laura Arrunada (Sandoval) expressed to police she was a trained medical professional in Mexico & had misgivings about the way Lisa was being treated, but she was FOLLOWING ORDERS. Janis Johnson was her supervisor & Laura did what Janis ordered.

It was the same with the other two women that fled the country after Lisa's death. Ildika Cannovas (Szabo) & Suzanne Schuremberger (Green), through their prospective attorneys, outside the U.S., claimed they were only following orders and believed they had no personal responsibility for Lisa's negligent care.


This may be slightly off topic, but I find it ironic Tom Cruise's choices for films. A Few Good Men about the cover up of the murder of a marine, and the idea of who is responsible in a military system, seems a lot like what you are talking about here. And as I've been reading Marc Headley and Amy Scobee's books, I kept thinking, "What does this escape story remind me of?" Then a couple of days ago I realized, it's The Firm. Strange to think of Tom Cruise in a movie about about an organization that showers you with love, makes you feel like you are part of the elite and then, when you find out what they are doing, you can't escape. I wonder if he sees the irony. If The Firm was made today, it would almost seem like an Anti-Scientology film.

There must be some precedent for a case like this. If Rathbun hadn't taken out those final pages on Lisa's death, perhaps there was some evidence there or elsewhere that COB ordered her care, and thus bore some responsibility. It's my personal feeling that Janis Johnson should have been charged. I think a determined attorney could have built a case around some individuals being responsible, but after the medical examiner changed her findings (under duress) it became hard to prove anything. I think the bottom line is most people are aware that Fair Game still exists and so I think this stops a lot of legal action and consequences against the church - people just don't want to go out on a limb. According to Reitman's book, as I recall, one of the IRS guys had a Scientologist (man) following his daughter as she walked home from school. If CoS can get to the IRS, usually considered one the baddest mother*##$) in town, they can get to anybody.

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Re: Knowledge Report: Marty Rathbun on Lisa McPherson..

Postby Smurf » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:39 pm

barbiedoll wrote:There must be some precedent for a case like this. If Rathbun hadn't taken out those final pages on Lisa's death, perhaps there was some evidence there or elsewhere that COB ordered her care, and thus bore some responsibility. It's my personal feeling that Janis Johnson should have been charged. I think a determined attorney could have built a case around some individuals being responsible, but after the medical examiner changed her findings (under duress) it became hard to prove anything.
Sadly, there was no way things could have changed no matter how diligent attorneys could be.

To understand this, you need to move away from being a Scientology critic, and step into the shoes of a layman that has little or no understanding of Scientology. You also need to understand how the courts work & how attorneys perceive the courts. They are not a place where one arrives at the truth and proves whether one is guilty or not guilty. The system is set up to be an attorney's playground to forward the facts, tamper with them, and use them to confuse juries and judges, who decide, based on what they PERCEIVE TO BE THE TRUTH, in "deciding the facts" of a situation.

Ask yourself why so many skilled prosecutors go on to become defense attorneys? They love the thrill of the hunt, the money, and being able to perform in front of a jury and do what they can to confuse them. It's not ethical behavior, but the definition of ethics & professional behavior takes on a different definition when one practice's law.

The Lisa McPherson case, with Ken Dandar's aggressive lawyering, combined with the cult spending millions of dollars on an entourage of attorneys & experts, placed a tremendous burden on the courts, which already had full dockets with other cases. I remember judges back then admitting they just wished the Lisa case "went away".

The cult was very effective in overloading the courts with frivolous motions, hearings, delays & appeals, to the point, that no one wanted to hear about Lisa anymore. It got to the point that Lisa's family were so stressed that they gave in & settled.

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/dell.htm

Lisa's case will never be revisited by the courts. Dell Liebrich died last year.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/dallas ... bLoggedOut


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