Why, I'm surprised none of you sneered at this one!



So, because Dainty Davie can't punish or even win against Wollershiem, he punishes the one he CAN reach... or at least, the ones he can reach while standing on the tallest stool he can climb up.

Ten gets you one he wasn't even the reg who snared Wollershiem in the first place.

This list testifies that the vast majority of older timers are gone for good every where in $cientology.
I do not see a lot of names that I know for a fact that those people worked for Gold.
They are gone...
... they discovered that $cientology is a major scam.
Sunshine

I missed the original list posted on this thread in 2005, but am glad I caught the ‘07 update. I was stunned to see that Chuck Lemmer has died of cancer sometime during the past two years.

I knew Chuck, who would have been in his 50s by now. We met in Southern California in the late 1970s; my husband & I had just married and had moved to So. Calif., where he joined an aerospace engineering company. Chuck Lemmer and his fiancée, Kathy Riordan, were engineers working at that same company. They were both very committed Scientologists - I had never heard of Scientology until meeting them.

We saw them socially and enjoyed their company - I especially liked Kathy, who is incredibly bright and has a terrific sense of humor. We attended their wedding at Kathy’s aunt’s home in Huntington Beach; Kathy’s family were not Scientologists and must have found the ceremony and the Scientology “minister” squirming in his clerical collar just as strange as I did.

At Chuck & Kathy’s prodding, my husband & I eventually did a couple of introductory Scn courses. We didn’t continue because my husband thought they were charging insane amounts of money and I objected to the control. After we rejected Scn, our friendship with Chuck & Kathy slowly petered out.

Fast forward twenty years to 1998. We are still living in Southern California and my husband has cancer - for the second time. He decides to explore the possibility of a mind-body connection in his repeated development of cancer and remembers that Scientology addresses this. He goes into Buenaventura Mission in Ventura, California to talk to them. With surgical bandages still on his neck, he drops like a ripe plum into the lap of Registrar Jim Hamre.

My husband begins doing Scientology courses & auditing and simultaneously undergoes legit medical treatment for cancer. I want nothing to do with Scn and am alarmed by their increasing demands for money. But I don’t feel I can object, so long as my husband believes Scn may help prevent a recurrence of cancer.

Under intense pressure from the Org, he finally persuades me to enter CoS in early 2000. I last about six months. In June 2000 both of us leave CoS.

Shortly before our departure - this would be late spring 2000 - I was thumbing through a magazine in the Org and ran across an announcement that Kathy R. Lemmer had been made commanding officer of INCOMM, which controls Scn’s internal communications system and computer data banks.

I remember saying to my husband: “What a coincidence! Just as we are leaving Scientology, we run across Kathy again. It seems she is in the Sea Org. I wonder what has happened to Chuck.”

We never contacted Kathy - considering we were on a fast track to SP status, there didn’t seem much point. But it was interesting to see that she had climbed so high in the Scn hierarchy.

Now we know what happened to Chuck. He was at Gold Base. And he has died - so sad. I wonder if Kathy is still in the SO. I wonder if she is still running INCOMM. Does anyone know? She was unusually fond of strawberries - I remember serving them for dessert when she & Chuck were at our house for dinner one evening, and she could not get enough of them! I hope she hasn't ended up on the RPF - I doubt she'd see many strawberries there.

What a waste. Two bright, lively people who have given their entire lives to Hubbard’s scam.

Hi Ladybird. The sad news is that Liz Ingber, formerly Liz Stevens, passed away in the late '80s from cancer, she did go down to Tijuana to see Jimmy Keller but was too advanced.

Regards, your mate.

Is that true? Liz Ingber passed away from cancer in the '80s? I knew Marc and Liz and worked with them on the Pac Reno's ordeal (MOPM). Liz was a tough lady but she had a nice side as well. I liked both Marc and Liz and am sorry to hear this. They both could be very funny in the right circumstances. I remember when we had a Christmas Party during the first year of MOPM and Marc did impersonations and Liz told some pretty funny jokes. When we got the first orgs moved in we had a great party up in Lake Arrowhead. I rented a big cabin with lots of room and we had a big cookout with steak and lobster, keg of beer and wine. Everyone went horseback riding the next morning but I took off to go surfing down at Zuma beach. It was a diffferent cult back then. But I still wouldn't wish it on anyone. Hats off and a moment of silence for Liz

Thorn

all these cancer deaths and young folks too

if id stayed in the sea org I might be dead now..

thanks for the data folks

E-meter (electricity induced) CANCER info HERE

What happened to Guillome Lesevre (not sure correctly spelled). Isn't he still ED Int?

Dear Songbird,

I saw Kathy Lemmerer in late 2002, early 2003, still at INCOMM, still apparantly the CO INCOMM, I was in the RPF's RPF, so only saw her from 30 feet away, in casual civies, which INCOMM staff often wear on Saturdays.

Wasn't Kathy also a pilot?

Chuck,
Thanks for the news. Kathy was not a pilot when I knew her - but that was 30 years ago! She could well have taken up flying since then.

In those days, she had a horse and seemed to very much love riding - I can remember her giving the horse a touch assist after it had undergone some sort of medical procedure.

As CO INCOMM, she would be at Big Blue - yes?? Her husband, Chuck Lemmer, was at Gold Base. I wonder, after he developed cancer, would he have been kept at Gold Base? Would she have been allowed to shift post location to be nearer to him? His death must be fairly recent - he is shown on the 2005 Gold Base list as alive & active, but on the 2007 list as deceased of cancer.

It's amazing to me that this woman whom I knew and liked quite a lot is now in the top rungs of this scary organization. And so very sad that her husband has died - and died so young.

[quote="songbird"]Chuck,

As CO INCOMM, she would be at Big Blue - yes?? Her husband, Chuck Lemmer, was at Gold Base. I wonder, after he developed cancer, would he have been kept at Gold Base? Would she have been allowed to shift post location to be nearer to him? His death must be fairly recent - he is shown on the 2005 Gold Base list as alive & active, but on the 2007 list as deceased of cancer.

It's amazing to me that this woman whom I knew and liked quite a lot is now in the top rungs of this scary organization. quote]

Yes, she was stationed at the complex.

I've heard of people doing their cancer treatments with local hospitals nearby Gilman Hot Springs, who died, they lived on reduced or no work schedules, and stayed at the Kirby staff berthing apartments and didn't come to the base for work duty.

The Bridge to Total Freedom winds people up into ideas far from the rest of the world's reality.

Yes indeedy!!

I was just thinking that sometimes it's easy to see what draws a particular person to Scientology. For example, Jim Hamre, the Registrar at Buenaventura Mission, where my husband & I did most of our services, is a bully. If he hadn't become a Scientology Registrar, he would have gravitated to some other line of work that would allow him to bully people. IMHO.

Kathy Lemmer, when I knew her, was adventurous, smart, feisty! She would have been attracted to Scientology's promise of a grand game, to the challenge of clearing the planet, to the adventure of zooming around the Van Allen belt or dodging freight trains on Venus. As you say, far from the rest of the world's reality.

Who knows? - maybe Chuck's death will prompt her to look closer and see through the con. It could happen.

Maybe. More likely though, she's amongst people she likes, who have similar views.

There are loads of Sea Org members who are decent people, who sort of ride along with the more extreme stuff, since they (I was one) were thinking that real OTs were being made.

It all made sense if indeed OTs were truly made.

"The only thing you can be upbraided for by students and pcs is 'no results.' Trouble spots occur only where there are 'no results.' Attacks from governments or monopolies occur only where there are 'no results' or 'bad results.'" - L. Ron Hubbard (Keeping Scientology Working, 1965)

Since there are no results, no OTs, no freed beings, LRH hasn't even showed up again, no one at Int commented on LRH coming back yet, I mean it's pretty clear there aren't going to be any OT results coming anytime soon.

The Sea Org OTs are a dedicated happy volunteer communistic totalitarian self-deluded elite corps of galactic best of the worst thetans dumped on earth, who've "banded together" to help salvage this sector of the galaxy! Their billion years contract is only the start. Those that stick with the movement, beyond this first billion years, remember, we have eternity ahead of us, and the Sea Org members are gonna be the future superheroes that will be increasingly vindicated once the rest of the population in the universe get up to understanding how great these Sea Org people are for protecting and spreading LRH's universe salvaging "tech" out into the broad expanse of the whole physical universe!

Back to reality, if you want to catch a glimpse of Kathy L, just hang out on Catalina Blvd in LA, and watch her on Saturdays', walking from the Horseshoe entrance over to the INCOMM organization's vehicles, she's got one of the org SUVs as her personal car, the CO's of orgs usually have access to one of the nicest org vehicles. INCOMM's fleet of vehicles is about 4 or so cars, several of which are SUVs. Kathy's checked out for one of them!

It's a BIG GAME!

It's an opportunity for some people to live

Except that there's the constant threat of nightmares like this:
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/INCOMM.html
Definitely not my idea of living.


Seeing that I now live in Arizona, am not an OT, and thus can't pop out of my body and fly on over to Catalina Blvd. in LA ... I'll just have to miss her and her SUV. Though I'm glad they've given her a decent car - seems like the least they could do in return for a billion-year commitment!

He wasn't like that when I knew him (although he had quite an elitist attitude). Maybe going from a Comm Course sup to a reg made a big change in his personality? (I am not arguing with you. You know what you know.)

Deb Butler (head of the Comm Course at the Riverside Mission) did rip on him one time. She said that he was inconsistent in behaviour in wearing cowboy boots and denim ONE DAY and then a suit and tie the next. (This was true.)

Jim didn't like doing TRs with me because he thought that he was better than me. I just shrugged it off and went about my post business.

Could you tell me more … I would love to explore.