Scientology's Plan for Genocide

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Post by touchstone » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:39 pm

I think a distinction to be kept in mind is one between a mad dictator's desires and his abilities. Saddam Hussein would have loved to have had the nukes and other WMD's the Bush administration accused him of having, but the Iraqi dicator, largely contained as a threat since the end of Gulf War I, did not actually pose the serious international threat, the immanent danger to its neighbors, let alone the USA, which Cheney et al had claimed. From this, I conclude that the threshold of justification for pre-emptive strike had not actually been reached.

Similarly, although the 19-years-dead sociopath Hubbard may have held all of humanity in contempt, and his attitudes are enshrined in his legacy of *cough* 'scriptures', this malevolence is not backed by the scope of power needed to realize its ambitions. How shall we respond? In precisely the way we are doing here-- through exposure, thoughtful analysis, truth-telling. The good news is that it seems to be working: Scientology looks like it is in decline.

Yes, we need to be alert to the aspirations of hatemongers and those who would destroy human rights, and yes, we need to speak out and uncover the true intentions of such people. Fortunately, this step alone, done dilligently, is often largely sufficient to de-fang the poisonous beast.

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Post by Ltricha1 » Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:37 pm

Touchstone,
$cientology not only destroys lives it destroys whole towns. Please look at Clearwater Florida.

As for power, $cientology, well David Miscaivage, is know to have millions of dollars tucked away. He has bought whole police departments and even managed to get a $cientology sympathic judge put in office in California.

To underestimate the threat of $cientology is to invite disaster.
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Post by purplehaze66 » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:00 pm

AB,

I agree, I tried to be proactive and tell people I know about $cientology. But most of the people I work with have not really heard of $cientology.
So when I tell them some of the stories, they could not believe it.
Some I told to read the time story and they did and said they would never join. But some friends said the same thing $cientologist say, what difference does it make if that person is happy why can't they do it.
And I tried to make the argument that if $cientology put everything on the table at the beginning and people still wanted to join, than I would not object.
I guess what I am saying is some people will not get involved until it affects them, kinda like WWII.
To this day I still bring up things about $cientology to them, hoping maybe they will get involved, but I do not know if it will work.

Joey

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Post by lermanet_com » Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:42 pm

speaking of grandfathers...

My grandfather was pals with Mussolini, and helped start his political career.

They were socialists, NOT fascists, they were anti-fascist... who wanted a government that served the people equitably..

When grandafther found out that Mussolini wanted to become dictator of italy, Il Duce` and was a fascist, he and his associates hatched a plan to assisinate Mussolini while he was still a provincial governor.

Image
Grandfather on the left, my mother is one of the twins on bottom right

There was a rat, the plan was betrayed, but Mussolini honored the long friendship, walking my grandfather to the boat that would take him to america.. ( he ended up in Scranton /Wilksebarre area in Pennsylvania - image above )
telling him that if he stayed in italy until morning he would have to watch his old freind be hanged.

So perhaps all Ive been doing for 11 years now, fighting to expose Scientology, is expressing some of my genetic heritage..

Sincerely

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Post by tikk » Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:40 pm

Maybe someone should point out (ok, I'll do it) that plans for genocide tend to undercut successful business models, and in addition, engender severe distrust and scrutiny in communities where such plans are made apparent. Scientology's goals relate to making money and being successful. LRH said a lot of things that can be interpreted more than one way, but his discriminatory comments about wogs, et al., were mostly intended to elevate Scientologists' opinions of themselves as an elite group. By providing an unentlightened control group example, LRH gave Scientologists something to strive away from, and more importantly, see themselves as part of a non-divisible group. The goal was inclusion by way of exclusion. But to extrapolate a master plan for genocide from these tactics (which many non-genocidal groups employ) is ridiculous. First, it fails to account for the fact that however crazy LRH was, he's dead. DM is a power thirsty businessman, and is bright enough to realize that a sudden policy shift towards an acceptance of genocide would hurt profitability. You can't argue that he's for both because the the goal of 'making money' and 'killing wogs' conflict sharply. They already fight an uphill PR battle to become demarginalized because so many of their even plain vanilla policies contravene public norms. Most people think Scientologists are, at the least, weird. Whether or not LRH planned for a master race through an eventual genocidal conspiracy (and your dot connecting is selectively specious - you can do similar parlor tricks with the Bible), it is unlikely to happen because Scientology is striving for public acceptance, regardless of how silly their attempts often appear. If the Mormons are an apt model (and they very well could be - Mormonism is the only other American derived 'major' religion), Scientology will, over the course of time, slowly shed the crazier material and dilute itself to be more publicly palatable. There is evidence that this is already happening - LRH's craziest material is excised and/or deemphasized in newer editions of older works. So, just like Mormonism, there will emerge a fundamentalist audience for the 'pure' stuff. But those people will be marginalized. Scientology is somewhat dogma-rigged to prevent schisms, but there already are schisms, so it seems inevitable. In any event, whatever conclusions one can draw from LRH's writings as to what he thought should happen to 'wogs', Scientologists have never acted on those words or thoughts as a general principle, unlike, say, abortion opponents killing doctors do. While Scientology can be used to justify socially unacceptable means (and often is) through a 'greater goal' ideal, actual means are a result of specific directives for the most part. The majority of paying Scientologists are publics, who compartmentalize Scientology and basically just want to be perceived as successful. They'll stop paying if a policy of killing SPs emerges. I suppose you could construct an inferential field day where Scientology first took control of the government and instituted policies of their own liking, but the Christians are way ahead of them on that front and there's an assload more of them than there are Scientologists. All religions have their sinners, infidels, unenlighteneds, lower castes, and now SPs. And in some cases, there is worry for those groups. But history does not suggest even a potential plan to exterminate SPs, despite Hubbard's rhetoric. It simply does not make money, nor more money, nor enable others to do the same.

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Post by lermanet_com » Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:41 pm

Plans for genocide fit the requistites for a totalitarian group as outlined in Eric Hoffer's True Believer. Which I will paraphrase.. every totalitarian groups needs both a intangible enemy ( the reactive mind, body thetans) and a tangible enemy ( jews, gypsies, - SPs and Downstats in Scientology)

The written definition in $cientology of an "enemy' of scientology is just the Public Relation shore story.

The working definition of enemy of Scientology, Sp, whatever, is

anyone whose words or conduct interfere with continued extraction of money from rubes.

One must take into consideration what is said versus what is done, that is both definitions, to expound upon just what is said is fallacious, though based upon that persons subjective expereince, perhaps that person's word and deeds haven't been percieved by Scientology to have interfered with Scientology's money making abilities?

The larger purpose of demonization of

anyone whose words or conduct interfere with the continued extraction of money from rubes

is the magic show technique of direction of attention, lest the viewer of the show might actually read and actually learn the words and ideas of those so demonized.

Scientology's template emulates those evils which came before in written intents and tactics. That this particular pile of perverted minds has only left a few VISIBLE dead bodies for our examination is merely a testament of how well organized they are internally at destroying evidence and manipulating the attention of the mentally challenged.

Lisa McPherson is dead.

Imagine what we don't know about.

Arnie Lerma
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Post by tikk » Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:59 pm

Arnie; whether your post was supposed to be a refutation of the points I made or a random series of phrases that happened to follow my post chronologically I can't quite tell. In any event, Scientology = Nazis analogies are offensive and hysterical and until you can somehow show evidence that Scientology plans the systematic killing of any group of people you'll just have to settle for issuing Holocaust denial party lines on your site to change up the calculus so that Scientology doesn't have so far to reach a historically-revised Nazi benchmark. Some of the deaths that have come about in Scientology are unfortunate, but most were a direct or indirect result of misguided beliefs about workable technology, and not a planned earth-wiping exercise in suppressivecleansing. As to my point that a genocidal policy would interfere with Scientology's business model, your alleged reply is muddled, but seems to imply that there is no conflict. This is ridiculous. Perhaps you don't understand what the term genocide means. Ladybird doesn't, or she'd know that the definition she posted is not LRH's but the Geneva Convention's; as toiled over by the creator of the term, a Polish linguist named Raphael Lemkin. International law reads the definition narrowly, not broadly, as some would here (indeed, many argue that Darfur could have been prevented if the Int'l law community wasn't too busy pondering whether Sudan was committing "genocide" as defined by the Convention). Mere condemnation of a group or an assertion that a group has no ascertainable rights does not suffice. It takes action and capacity to bring about any of the 5 conditions present; Scientology has not taken actions to bring about any of those 5 conditions. The fair game policy does not implicate a group, but rather individuals who cross Scientology. Large corporations act similarly vengeful, although more as a matter of instinctual self-preservation than written dogma. But neither plot genocide. And even if Scientology did act to kill SPs as a matter of generalized policy to destroy the group (or cause serious bodily or mental harm, etc.), it would not have the capacity, since it is too ridiculous an organization to climb so high to power to possess the ability to carry out such a plan. They can't even infiltrate the St. Louis school district, for chrissakes.

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Post by J. Swift » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:51 pm

Tikk, you make some excellent points and yet they are contradictory, for your argument does not harmonize with Scientology's conduct.

For example, you said that:
LRH said a lot of things that can be interpreted more than one way, but his discriminatory comments about wogs, et al., were mostly intended to elevate Scientologists' opinions of themselves as an elite group.... They (Scientology) already fight an uphill PR battle to become demarginalized because so many of their even plain vanilla policies contravene public norms
Tikk, you can't have it both ways. If Scientology wants to become mainstream then it has to renounce or explain LRH's violent statements. Scientology cannot both contravene public norms and become mainstream. This is a contradiction in terms.

The problem with Scientology is that it wants to continue to flagrantly contravene public norms, i.e. act as a law unto itself, and yet it wants and demands the respectability accorded to mainstream religions.

As a consequence, Scientology is all about PR and not telling the truth or reforming itself and cleaning itself up. The publc sees the PR for what it is: A self-serving attempting to have it both ways: Contravene public norms while being perceived as mainstream.

One example of this hypocrisy was the CNN interview of a CoS official concerning the Purification Rundown. The CoS official told lies in public about how CoS views drugs. I can quote you CCHR releases in the past 60 days that completely contradict everything the CoS official said during the CNN interview. This was clearly a PR attempt of CoS to demarginalize itself while yet engaging in its fiercely avowed goal of fighting and destroying psychiatry and the use of psychiatric medications.

Tikk, if CoS PR is consists of lies and disinformation, this is not at attempt to go mainstream. It is rather propaganda and damage control. The public sees through all of this and the media and the internet will exposes the lies, tricks, and propaganda of CoS.

Scientology cannot go mainstream without a major reformation. These half measures of using PR, lies, and deleting problematic LRH quotes in a rapid and systematic way are one transitional strategy to go mainstream, but they do not handle or address the more profound and fundamental problems of Scientology. I have said this over and over and will keep saying it in hopes that Scientology hears it: It is not about PR; it is about truth.

Until Scientology confronts and handles the truth about its past in a public manner, it will not be mainstream. The media, the public, the victims, and the courts will continue to ruthlessly call Scientology to account until the Church makes itself accountable.

The media, the public, the victims, and the courts ruthlessly called the Roman Catholic Church to account for years over the pedophila scandal. The RCC finally admitted, handled, and confronted the pedophilia scandal after years of intense public pressure and after it had paid out over a billion dollars in lawsuits. This was painful and the RCC has had to sell real estate and lost members but, in the end, it did the right thing and admitted and handled a very ugly problem. Now the RCC is getting on with life and implementing long term solutions. The RCC survived.

What will it take for Scientology to make itself accountable and reform itself? When will it get the message that PR is not the same as truth and accountability?

One concrete step would be for CoS to purge all of LRH's genocidal language and renounce violence. There are ways to do this, but CoS does not seem to have a grasp of how to re-engineer and re-invent itself at a fundamental level. That is why it is stuck in lurching from one PR flap to another these days. It will be stuck there forever unless it makes real changes.

The dam broke in 2005 and Scientology has to realize the implications of what happened to it in 2005 that forever changed things for Scientology.

.
Last edited by J. Swift on Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by lermanet_com » Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:29 pm

tikk: "and not a planned earth-wiping exercise in suppressivecleansing. "


Perhaps you are unaware of Hubbard's propaganda rant with the title Science of Survival, which states that those below 2.0 on Hubbard's "Tone scale" should be audited or if unwilling to subject themseves to scientology's brand of orwellian thought control then they should be "disposed of quietly and without sorrow"


"disposed of quietly and without sorrow" are Hubbard's words not mine.



Sounds like a dressed up in linguistic disquised word for eugenics.

What does that phrase mean to you?

Seems pretty damn "clear" to me.

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Post by tikk » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:05 pm

I know Scientology lies. That does not make them advocates of genocide, however. My argument harmonizes just fine because I'm merely refuting the claim that Scientology is destined to lead to genocidal acts. It might not harmonize with your broadened mission statement about Scientology lying, but it wasn't meant to harmonize b/c that's not what my argument was aimed refuting. Indeed, I agree that Scientology PR lies and lies in grand fashion. But their lying, as a systematic practice even, does not operate as a catchall for other statements about it. E.g.,

Person A: Scientology stole the batteries from my wireless keyboard!
Person B: That sounds ridiculous, do you have any proof?
Person A: I don't need proof. Scientology lies, so their denial is proof that they stole my batteries.

That argument only takes you so far, IOW.

I never averred that Scientology's attempts to become mainstream would necessarily be successful. You're reading into my post words that aren't there. I'm merely stating that this is a major goal for them. Their eventual success or failure at this goal is more than open for debate, and I'd probably take the side that they'll fail because it's just too kooky for most people to handle and they no longer can introduce the kooky elements over time. And the kooky elements aren't going away any time soon.

Indeed, Scientology is somewhat boobytrapped to resist mainstreaming, since tech alterations are high crimes. But that doesn't mean that it hasn't been done. Indeed, this is what the FZ goes apeshit over all the time.

Also, by "over time," I'm talking about decades, not months. Who knows what will happen next. DM is a lot different than LRH. How different will his successor be? Perhaps he/she follows a 'friendlier' path. Maybe it's not longer 'Scientology' even and maybe (probably) a huge schisming would occur, but if the organization were to move from mere survival to thriving, it will be necessary to shed at least some of the more extreme policies. At the end of the day, it's a huge moneymaking business and economic factors can be just as important as dogma. But it doesn't seem likely that it'll just die out completely because it is a very sustainable business model. Even in its current marginalized state, it produces a lot of money. Maybe it goes away for awhile, gets much smaller, and then rejuvenates into something even more powerful, like the way EST morphed into Landmark Forum, which is even more profitable than its predecessor. Again, I'm not arguing that these things will happen, or are inevitable (thus I don't need things 'both ways'), merely that they're possible. And if you took a step back, you'd see that they are.

And even as bad as 2005 was for Scientology in a PR sense, I'd be willing to bet that their overall sales went up. Realize that there are not that many Scientologists to begin with. The Scientologists who are 'in' don't leave because a South Park episode woke them up - entheta strengthens their resolve. While the RCC can lose members over scandals and bad PR (and they did), it has a far less committed pool from which to lose members - 20% of the world is Catholic, but the same pressures do not exist for Catholics to remain in the church.

The negative PR did much to warn people as to the more sinister aspects of Scientology, but there was mostly a lot of preaching to the choir. The vast majority of the newly informed were in no danger of joining anyway.

Where Scientology probably gained members from all this is from the signficant pool of people who inherently distrust psychiatry but never made the connection that Scientology represented an opposing institutional force. Realize that Scientology's anti-psychiatry message went out to greater numbers of people than ever before, and it's a position that many sane people share. Mostly not to the same degree as Scientology, but there is a decent argument that huge drug companies making 20% margins do not have your best interests at heart in marketing their get-well-quick fixes. So there were people who were predisposed to hearing this message. Most of those people did not run out and join Scientology, but again, Scientology does not have or even need that many people to make tons of money. But some people probably did join because that message got to them where it wouldn't have gotten to them a year before. IOW, Scientology's members come from a fairly small fixed pool of potential members, and that pool was enlarged.

Did they become more marginalized in 2005? Yes, certainly. It will be more difficult for them to slip through the backdoor undetected to, say, school districts. A larger segment of the general public is now aware of them. But I'd be willing to bet that even through all this, their stats went up. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Maybe we'll be able to tell through Kristi's site months from now.

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Post by Ladybird » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:06 pm

Genocide: Quoting from the Admin (green) $cn dictionary, I offer you the LRH definition of "GENOCIDE":

", any of the following acts commited with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group as such: (a) killing members of the group; (b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its destruction in whole or in part; (d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and (e) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (LRH ED 28 INT).
Thank you Tikk, for pointing out that the above definition was plagiarized by LRH from the Geneva Convention. I did not know that, but it does not surprise me.

I would like to clarify that I was not suggesting that Scientology plans the systematic killing of any group of people.

The point I was trying to make is that David Miscavige is practicing genocide (per this definition) on Scientologists.


(a) killing members of the group; Through dangerous practices such as the Introspection Rundown, Black Dianetics, Reverse Processing and a total disregard for medical treatment among other things, many scientologists have died needlessly.


(b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; All of the above, plus disconnection policy, financially ruining members with hard-sell regging, Harsh and unfair Ethics and Justice, SP declares, the RPF, etc.


(c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its destruction in whole or in part; Again, all of the above, and the horrible living conditions and low pay for staff, Sea Org and RPF.

(d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; The 1986 orders that there were to be no more pregnancies in the Sea Org, and the well documented forced and coerced abortions.

(e) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group; Almost all the Sea Org children were removed from their parents at PAC and Flag and were sent to ranches in New Mexico and the California desert. There are no children allowed in the Sea Org anymore, except for the teenage CMO cadets, who do not live with their families.

It is arguable that there are many LRH references on "disposing quietly and without sorrow" of certain members of society, and bizarre edicts on "destroying utterly" people Hubbard feels should have no rights...and I have no doubt that there are zealots within scientology who are so indoctrinated that there have been cases where this kind of thing has been tried on some SPs and enemies of scientology. I just hope they never do get into the position to apply all the "fair game" tech LRH left them.

Ladybird

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Post by tikk » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:16 pm

lermanet_com wrote:tikk: "and not a planned earth-wiping exercise in suppressivecleansing. "

Perhaps you are unaware of Hubbard's propaganda rant with the title Science of Survival, which states that those below 2.0 on Hubbard's "Tone scale" should be audited or if unwilling to subject themseves to scientology's brand of orwellian thought control then they should be "disposed of quietly and without sorrow"
No, I'm quite aware of that quote. But perhaps you can show me some examples where that policy is actually being followed. You can't because there are none. Again, fair game examples do not indicate a genocidal intent, b/c genocide applies to a policy aimed at a group. And simply because fair game recipients can be characterized as members of a 'group of suppressives,' for instance, does not make the practice of fair game genocidal.

Perhaps some in managment would even like to follow that policy. Perhaps an especially fervent Scientologist reads that and goes on a killing spree of suppressives (although we've yet to see that). Regardless of what Hubbard said or wished for, the organization is held in check for reasons I've stated, which are obvious to most people.

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Post by lermanet_com » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:08 pm

dear tikk,

By your own argument, you could be called a scientology holocaust denier..

I understand that for many if they are not aware of it it does not exist.

I get telephone calls from newly leaving scientologists describing personal anguish and pain that defies description 2nd hand.

Children being adopted from enemies of scientology and then transferred out of the country... likely the only motivation is revennge from the twisted little psychopath that runs the show.

But unless you heard the anguish in their voices, you wouldnt be "quite aware of that" either. Perhaps someday you will become aware of that.

Sincerely

Arnie Lerma
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Post by tikk » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:25 pm

There's plenty of misery in this world that falls short of genocide. Scientology doesn't own a monopoly on it. But to enlarge the term's definition to include the treatment of Scientologists by the organization is not not only inaccurate, but a severe disservice to actual victims (and their families) of genocide.

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Post by lermanet_com » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:34 pm

Again, one's awareness of the scope of the damages done by Hubbard differ person to person.

When I asked paulette cooper, who certainly was subjected to the Hubbard's conscience-free world view, totally disassociated from any feelings of the heart, any compassion, and wholly dependent upon Hubbards maximizing the income from his twisted business model - before it was found out... that scientologies intent is to steal both a mans money and his life, why did you choose to take on Scientlogy by writing The Scandal of Scientology..

She said... Arnie, I grew up in an orphanage, where I was so cold that i would look forward to peeing on myself to feel the warmth, because my parents died in Auschwitz. I recognized in Scientology the same spectre that killed my parents.

She was aware of thier intent, as I and many others are.

In the meantime, you may continue to be aware of whatever you wish to be aware of.

Arnie Lerma
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