Was L. Ron Hubbard Sexually Molested as a Child?

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ron's hat
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Post by ron's hat » Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:41 am

SuzanneMarie wrote:
I've been hearing and reading about such activities for years.
No way....I mean...NO WAY...this statement would ever be allowed as a piece of factual evidence in a court of law.......maybe in a 'Committee of Evidence'....but no way in a United States Court of Law.

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Post by SuzanneMarie » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:40 am

ron's hat wrote:
SuzanneMarie wrote:
I've been hearing and reading about such activities for years.
No way....I mean...NO WAY...this statement would ever be allowed as a piece of factual evidence in a court of law.......maybe in a 'Committee of Evidence'....but no way in a United States Court of Law.
None of Swift's 'evidence' that LRH was molested by Cdr. Thompson
would be admissible in a trial of Thompson, either.

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Post by ron's hat » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:27 am

I will certainly give you that. Months ago I read about this supposed 'molestation' of Hubbard and I didn't give it 3 minutes worth of thought. So I will agree that there has never been any concrete bit of factual data concerning any supposed molestation of Hubbard. No argument from me on that point.

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newclear
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Post by newclear » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:46 pm

Nobody has seen the fire, but there is a lot of smoke. Where did Ron's demons come from? Was he born with them, did he acquire them during childhood and adolescence, or did he get them somewhere else?

In the complex task of deconstructing L. Ron Hubbard, no single issue really stands out as a defining theme. Sexual relations between LRH and Snake Thompson are certainly possible given the circumstances, and this may have had a large impact on Ron's later views on sexuality. God knows, I don't want to be the dick police. However, I think Ron's relationships with Jack Parsons and Sara Northrup had a far greater impact on Scientology.

edit -- I just re-read the thread from the beginning -- maybe this is a bigger key to understanding Ron than I thought.
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Post by J. Swift » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:21 pm

SuzanneMarie wrote: None of Swift's 'evidence' that LRH was molested by Cdr. Thompson
would be admissible in a trial of Thompson, either.
SuzanneMarie, I hadn't realized that you were a trial judge who can rule on the the admissibility of evidence. Where did you get your law degree? Or are you a legal expert because Scientology processing confers legal expertise on people? Contrary to your glib dismissal of my evidence, the fact is that the evidence I have presented comes directly from L. Ron Hubbard and CoS. As such, a court would have to allow it. What I have presented is unimpeachable evidence. What you are confused about is that I have made a case that Commander Thompson was a pedophile based upon circumstantial evidence as it relates to the actual evidence. And despite what you said earlier, the court did accept Hubbard's Admissions in Armstrong I. CoS attorneys argued over every bit of evidence. Because the Admissions were genuine Hubbard, the court admitted them. Gerry Armstrong was, and is, an expert on LRH biographical and archival materials. OTOH, what you have presented in this thread are character attacks on me rather than attempting to rebut the circumstantial evidence that incriminates Commander Thompson.

The evidence, both actual and circumstantial, argues that Hubbard was sexually molested by Commander Thompson. Seriously, what sort of parents would allow an adult male to discuss Freudian sexual theory, libido, and the sexual psychopathology that Freud described in case studies with their twelve year old son? Hubbard placed himself alone with Commander Thompson, and, this infamous CoS-commissioned painting affirms Hubbard being alone with Thompson:

Image

And what kind of idiots -- except for Scientologists -- would believe that a twelve year old boy could intellectually comprehend Freud? That was Hubbard's lie, the same sort of lie he told when he said that he was "busting broncos" at four years of age. A wild, eight hundred pound bucking bronco would throw a fifty-sixty pound, four year old boy -- and probably result in a skull fracture or death:

Image

Get real Suzie. Hubbard was a liar and a deeply disturbed personality from a very young age. Are we to believe that his parents allowed him to ride dangerous broncos at four years old and to discuss Freudian sexual psychopathology alone with a adult male at twelve? If Hubbard's parents cared this little about their son's physical and emotional safety, then my argument that Commander Thompson groomed Hubbard and then molested him is even stronger, for male pedophiles do seek out boys who have absent parents and crave a father figure.

*****
The evidence argues that Hubbard engaged in gay sex with Jack Parsons in a Magick Ritual. The evidence also shows that Hubbard was a wife-beater, a bigamist, and a pathological liar. SuzanneMarie, your defective, out ethics God product named L. Ron Hubbard claimed to have won two Purple Hearts and the Silver Star and some other 20+ WWII combat medals. How can you defend a man who would lie about his war record? Hubbard was a disgrace, and, he was psychologically damaged. If you want to worship him and his Tech, at least be honest about the fact that Hubbard was damaged goods from a very early age. For example, in 1933/34 he listed his residence as the US Naval Hospital in Washington. Why was he living in a Naval hospital at 23 years of age when he was in good health?

Was he a mental patient?


/////
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Post by newclear » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:50 pm

Since when does being a bisexual wife-beater, a bigamist, and a pathological liar disqualify one from starting a major new science-based world religion? Oops, I forgot -- Scientology isn't that.

I have started Eckhard Tolle, and he seems to argue that what Hubbard called "case" is simply a manifestation of one's ego. His suggestions on how to get beyond it seem to be at least as workable as Scientology and way cheaper.

If Hubbard really was molested as a child, then his Karmic bank account is not as overdrawn as we originally thought.
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Post by SuzanneMarie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:04 am

J. Swift wrote: Because the Admissions were genuine Hubbard, the court admitted them. Gerry Armstrong was, and is, an expert on LRH biographical and archival materials. OTOH, what you have presented in this thread are character attacks on me rather than attempting to rebut the circumstantial evidence that incriminates Commander Thompson.
Gerry Armstrong claimed at the trial that he was mentally ill and that Scientology made him that way. That tends to invalidate his testimony from the outset.
J. Swift wrote: The evidence, both actual and circumstantial, argues that Hubbard was sexually molested by Commander Thompson. Seriously, what sort of parents would allow an adult male to discuss Freudian sexual theory, libido, and the sexual psychopathology that Freud described in case studies with their twelve year old son?
Let's see, Ledora, LRH's mom, has been described as a feminist and a well-educated woman. And LRH's dad was a naval officer from a long line of same. But you think that they must have been idiots who allowed their preteen son to spend time alone with a pedophile. Don't you think that if LRH had been harmed or upset in any way by Thompson, he would have stopped being friends with him and complained to his parents? Thompson did not have custody of the boy.
J. Swift wrote: And what kind of idiots -- except for Scientologists -- would believe that a twelve year old boy could intellectually comprehend Freud?
You must know some awfully stupid twelve year old boys. Some boys are reading at a college level at twelve or younger.
J. Swift wrote:[Are we to believe that his parents allowed him to] discuss Freudian sexual psychopathology alone with a adult male at twelve? If Hubbard's parents cared this little about their son's physical and emotional safety, then my argument that Commander Thompson groomed Hubbard and then molested him is even stronger, for male pedophiles do seek out boys who have absent parents and crave a father figure.
I don't think that you are presenting evidence that LRH's parents were uncaring. Rather it suggests that they trusted him and Cdr. Thompson, who was a childless married man and a family friend.

J. Swift wrote: ...at least be honest about the fact that Hubbard was damaged goods from a very early age. For example, in 1933/34 he listed his residence as the US Naval Hospital in Washington. Why was he living in a Naval hospital at 23 years of age when he was in good health?

Was he a mental patient?
Firstly, did LRH have more than one mailing adddress during 1933 and 1934? Was he living there or using that address to receive his mail while he traveled? He was friends with William Alanson White, Cdr. Thompson and various other men who worked in the mental health field. They would have made sure that he got his mail when he returned.
In 1932 LRH was on an expedition for UMich which collected reptile and floral specimens from islands in the Atlantic. He would have needed an address at which he could pick up his mail on his return.
In April 1933 LRH married Polly Grubb. Their first child miscarried and the second was born two months premature in May 1934 while they were on holiday in Encinitas, California. If he was incarcerated in Washington DC during 1933-34 that does not jibe with the births of these children.
The premature child would have been conceived in October or November 1933, for instance. When exactly are you claiming LRH to have been institutionalized in DC?
Last edited by SuzanneMarie on Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Hubbard's Mushroom » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:45 am

L. Ron's sweet mom?

+++++++++++Sacred Cult scripture++++++++++++++

I had a malamute once, he was a tough dog. The only way
he could accept an acknowledgment was if you took a stick
of firewood and hit him between the ears. My mother, who
is a very little person, very small person, used to take a
stick or a chain to this malamute and just used to beat him
and beat him and beat him to make him stop chasing cows.
And the dog would say, "Hahh-hahh-hahh-hahh-hahh-hahh."
He'd say, "I love you too!"

I used to come home after an absence. This dog was very
ferocious. He was half malamute, half spitzbergen, very
tough dog. He only knew one thing: when you put him on a
leash and he felt that harness against his chest, he'd pull! And
you went whether you wanted to or not. And he used to come
—he'd see me coming up toward the house and he would rush
out of the gate. I'd been gone for a month or two or three.
And he would rush out of the gate with every fang bared. And
I'd wait until he got there and I'd pick up the loose skin on
both sides of his jowls and use his momentum and throw him
about that far. And he would go over there about 25 feet and
he would land, see. And he'd get up and he'd say, "Oh, it's
you, Ron. How are you?" That dog was half Russian! And
Pavlov said that denying him a little food would drive him
crazy.

— L. Ron Hubbard
Lecture: 2 September 1956: Effectiveness Of Brainwashing

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Post by J. Swift » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:40 am

SuzanneMarie wrote:Gerry Armstrong claimed at the trial that he was mentally ill and that Scientology made him that way. That tends to invalidate his testimony from the outset.
More intellectual dishonesty and evasion from Suzie Engram here. Suzie, Armstrong's state of mind at the trial does not invalidate what Hubbard wrote in his Admissions. These are two separate issues, so please observe the distinction.
Ledora, LRH's mom, has been described as a feminist and a well-educated woman.
She has been described that way by LRH and by Scientology in order to create and perpetuate the myth of L. Ron Hubbard's superhuman childhood by Scientology.
And LRH's dad was a naval officer from a long line of same.

So? What does Hubbard's father being a Naval officer have to do with anything? In fact, Hubbard Sr. sure as hell never taught LRH a damn thing about being a US Naval officer. Look at LRH's horrendously poor career as a US Naval officer and then his lies about having won combat medals and Purple Hearts when he never served one day in combat. If anything. Hubbard disgraced his military forebears by his poor service as an officer and his "False Valor" in claiming medals he never won.
Don't you think that if LRH had been harmed or upset in any way by Thompson, he would have stopped being friends with him and complained to his parents?
Victims of childhood molestation are often threatened into silence by their victimizer. Hubbard may have been shuddered into silence, a technique he would later use on his many victims.
You must know some awfully stupid twelve year old boys. Some boys are reading at a college level at twelve or younger.
Suzie, I remind you that L. Ron Hubbard got D's and F's in college when he was, ahh, factually, college age. Hubbard's D's and F's at age eighteen and nineteen decisively argue against his having any sort of college-level intellectual capacity at age twelve. If Hubbard failed at physics at age eighteen, he sure as hell would not have understood Freudian psychotherapy at age twelve.
I don't think that you are presenting evidence that LRH's parents were uncaring. Rather it suggests that they trusted him and Cdr. Thompson, who was a childless married man and a family friend.
First, I would like to see your proof that Commander Thompson was married. Second, I would like to see your proof that Commander Thompson was a Hubbard family friend. Hubbard always refers to Commander Thompson as "his" friend and never once associates or mentions his parents and Thompson.
Firstly, did LRH have more than one mailing adddress during 1933 and 1934? Was he living there or using that address to receive his mail while he traveled? He was friends with William Alanson White, Cdr. Thompson and various other men who worked in the mental health field.

Hubbard gave only one address on a passenger ship manifest in 1932. This was an official US Gov't record that requires a person's primary address. Hubbard was, according to a US legal document, domiciled at the US Naval Hospital -- a facility that is not like the YMCA. People don't get to just live at the US Naval Hospital. People are rather admitted as patients. The US Naval Hospital in D.C. does not serve as a PO Box as you seem to imply. I think Hubbard was there at the behest of the US Marine Corps for mental treatment. I say this because the US Marine Corps discharged Hubbard with the unequivocal order that he was permanently ineligible for re-enlistment into the Marine Corps. Why would such a condition be imposed unless Hubbard had been deemed a mental defective or a deviate by US Military mental health experts? This could explain Hubbard's animus towards psychiatry.

Suzie, I disagree with your view that LRH hung around with US Naval Officers who were mental health experts. Hubbard was an enlisted man and they were officers. Fraternization between the two classes was not allowed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. This argues that Hubbard was their patient.
In April 1933 LRH married Polly Grubb. Their first child miscarried and he second was born two months premature in May 1934 while they were on holiday in Encinitas, California. If he was incarcerated in Washington DC during 1933-34 that does not jibe with the births of these children. The premature child would have been conceived in October or November 1933, for instance. When exactly are you claiming LRH to have been institutionalized in DC?
Suzie, your apparently detailed LRH biographical data here suggests to me that you have just spoken to that rather queer bird Danny Sherman, LRH's official biographer. Danny Sherman is notorious for fabricating LRH's bio. For example, Mr. Sherman has claimed that L. Ron Hubbard created the US Air Force; invented the LORAN navigational system; and helped Kodak film scientists to perfect Kodak's color movie film. Thus, anything Danny Sherman says about Hubbard must be taken with a grain of salt because the man has lied about and/or vastly hyper-inflated Ron's accomplishments and biography.

Here is my documentation on Hubbard's residence in 1932 and 1933. This is from my thread at:
viewtopic.php?t=24411&postorder=asc

I quote part of my post from that thread here:

...Now comes a document into my possession which shows that LRH debarked the SS Caomo on August 29, 1932. The ship had left San Juan, Puerto Rico on August 25, 1932 and sailed to the Port of New York where LRH debarked. The passenger list of US Citizens shows LRH's home address in the US to be the US Naval Hospital in Washington D.C.

Image

LRH was in the US Marines in this period and so would have qualified for government hospitalization and/or the psychiatric care of the time which could range from bed rest, therapy, medicine, to a full-fledged lobotomy.

Question: Why was LRH living in a US Naval Hospital in 1932?

*****
The following year, LRH once again sailed on the SS Caomo from San Juan, Puerto Rico on April 6, 1933. He listed his home address as P.O. Box 6, Beallsville, Maryland. Beallsville is very near Bethesda Naval Hospital.

Image

*****
SuzanneMarie, these official records show LRH living on the East Coast in 1932 in the US Naval Hospital and in 1933 very near to the US Naval Hospital, perhaps an outpatient who was still receiving psychiatric treatment?

You would have to ask Danny Sherman about Polly Grubb and Encinitas, California and the other details.

////
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Why Offer This Theory?

Post by SuzanneMarie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:41 am

Why is J. Swift offering the theory here that LRH was molested as a child?

Here are some possibilites:

1) Swift would like the subject of child molestation to be associated in the public mind with Scientologists, so that eventually people come to regard Scientologists as dangerous to children.

2) Swift and others here are trying to inculcate readers with the idea that Scientologists in general have been raped, and are psychologically damaged and may commit crimes against children, unless given psychiatric treatment.

3) The 'LRH was Molested' theory is sensationalist and likely to garner media attention, and Swift is starved for this sort of attention.

4) Posting a thread of this type gives Swift an opportunity to degrade and label demurrers as OSA, or to question their sanity and intellectual honesty. This, he imagines, will convince readers that he is a major critic of great importance, rather than an attention whore who goes off the deep end with very little provocation.
Last edited by SuzanneMarie on Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by SuzanneMarie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:18 am

J. Swift wrote:
SuzanneMarie wrote:Gerry Armstrong claimed at the trial that he was mentally ill and that Scientology made him that way. That tends to invalidate his testimony from the outset.
More intellectual dishonesty and evasion from Suzie Engram here. Suzie, Armstrong's state of mind at the trial does not invalidate what Hubbard wrote in his Admissions. These are two separate issues, so please observe the distinction.
You are assuming that the Admissions were actually written by Hubbard.
Why? Because they reflect badly on him?
J. Swift wrote:
Ledora, LRH's mom, has been described as a feminist and a well-educated woman.
She has been described that way by LRH and by Scientology in order to create and perpetuate the myth of L. Ron Hubbard's superhuman childhood by Scientology.
Please provide evidence that Ledora was neither a feminist nor well educated, then.
J. Swift wrote:
You must know some awfully stupid twelve year old boys. Some boys are reading at a college level at twelve or younger.
Suzie, I remind you that L. Ron Hubbard got D's and F's in college, when he was college age. Hubbard's D's and F's at age 18 and 19 argue against his having any sort of college-level intellectual capacity at age 12. If Hubbard failed at physics at 18, he sure as hell would not understand Freudian psychotherapy at age 12.
You're ignoring the fact that attending George Washington U was never LRH's idea; it was his father who insisted that LRH was going to become an engineer. So the bad grades reflect lack of interest rather than lack of ability.
J. Swift wrote:
I don't think that you are presenting evidence that LRH's parents were uncaring. Rather it suggests that they trusted him and Cdr. Thompson, who was a childless married man and a family friend.
First, I would like to see your proof that Commander Thompson was married. Second, I would like to see your proof that Commander Thompson was a Hubbard family friend. Hubbard always refers to Commander Thompson as "his" friend and never once associates or mentions his parents and Thompson.
For one thing, Thompson's obituary in the San Francisco Chronicle mentions that he was survived by his wife Hilda, for another, Dr. Silas Warner's article about the psychoanalytic roots of Scn mentions Thompson as a friend of LRH's father whom he met en route to Guam.
J. Swift wrote:
Firstly, did LRH have more than one mailing adddress during 1933 and 1934? Was he living there or using that address to receive his mail while he traveled? He was friends with William Alanson White, Cdr. Thompson and various other men who worked in the mental health field.

Hubbard gave only one address on a passenger ship manifest in 1932. This was an official US Gov't record that requires a person's primary address. It appears that Hubbard was domiciled at the US Naval Hospital, a facility that is not like the YMCA. People don't get to just live at the US Naval Hospital. People are rather admitted as patients. The US Naval Hospital in D.C. does not serve as a PO Box as you seem to imply. I think Hubbard was there at the behest of the US Marine Corps for mental treatment. I say this because the US Marine Corps discharged Hubbard with the unequivocal order that he was permanently ineligible for re-enlistment into the Marine Corps. Why would such a condition be imposed unless Hubbard was a mental defective or a deviate?
Maybe he found out about something very horrible going on in the Corps?
J. Swift wrote:
In April 1933 LRH married Polly Grubb. Their first child miscarried and he second was born two months premature in May 1934 while they were on holiday in Encinitas, California. If he was incarcerated in Washington DC during 1933-34 that does not jibe with the births of these children. The premature child would have been conceived in October or November 1933, for instance. When exactly are you claiming LRH to have been institutionalized in DC?
Suzie, the level of your seeming LRH biographical data here suggests to me that you have just spoken to that queer bird Danny Sherman, LRH's official biographer.
No, my data came from the wiki bio on Polly Grubb.
J. Swift wrote: Here is my documentation on Hubbard's residence in 1932 and 1933. This is from my thread at:
viewtopic.php?t=24411&postorder=asc

Now comes a document into my possession which shows that LRH debarked the SS Caomo on August 29, 1932. The ship had left San Juan, Puerto Rico on August 25, 1932 and sailed to the Port of New York where LRH debarked. The passenger list of US Citizens shows LRH's home address in the US to be the US Naval Hospital in Washington D.C.

[img]smileforevercom/albums/i68/sadhu77/1LRHA.jpg[/img]

LRH was in the US Marines in this period and so would have qualified for government hospitalization and/or the psychiatric care of the time which could range from bed rest, therapy, medicine, to a full-fledged lobotomy.

Question: Why was LRH living in a US Naval Hospital in 1932?

*****
The following year, LRH once again sailed on the SS Caomo from San Juan, Puerto Rico on April 6, 1933. He listed his home address as P.O. Box 6, Beallsville, Maryland. Beallsville is very near Bethesda Naval Hospital.

[img]smileforevercom/albums/i68/sadhu77/1LRHB.jpg[/img]

SuzanneMarie, these official records show LRH living on the East Coast in 1932 in the US Naval Hospital and in 1933 very near to the US Naval Hospital, perhaps an outpatient who was still receiving psychiatric treatment?
No, your records (if they are real) show that LRH gave the US Naval Hospital as his mailing address when he was returning from visiting various islands in the Atlantic in 1932. It is not proof that he ever lived there. He and Polly Grubb were married in Maryland shortly after his return. They may well have settled near Bethesda. The Beallsville PO Box address is not proof or evidence of any kind that he lived at Bethesda.
In any event they did not stay in Maryland, and their first living child was born in southern California.

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Post by J. Swift » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:28 am

SuzanneMarie wrote:
Why is J. Swift offering the theory here that LRH was molested as a child?

Here are some possibilites:

1) Swift would like the subject of child molestation to be associated in the public mind with Scientologists, so that eventually people come to regard Scientologists as dangerous to children.

2) Swift and others here are trying to inculcate readers with the idea that Scientologists in general have been raped, and are psychologically damaged and may commit crimes against children, unless given psychiatric treatment.

3) The 'LRH was Molested' theory is sensationalist and likely to garner media attention, and Swift is starved for this sort of attention.

4) Posting a thread of this type gives Swift an opportunity to degrade and label demurrers as OSA, or to question their sanity and intellectual honesty. This, he imagines, will convince readers that he is a major critic of great importance, rather than an attention whore who goes off the deep end with very little provocation
SuzanneMarie, you have applied Scientology's policy of evading the debate and making a character attack upon me as a critic. You even double curved your reply by making an absurd charge that Scientologists are somehow victims of my not unreasonable theory that L.Ron Hubbard may have been sexually molested as a child.

Thank you for tacitly admitting by your behavior that I have won this debate. While my theory will always remain a theory, what is factual is that:

1. Scientology harms people.

2. Scientologists are unable to confront the fact that L. Ron Hubbard was a psychologically disturbed man and a pathological liar.

3. The crux of the matter is this: If L. Ron Hubbard is shown to be falable, troubled human being, then all of Scientology crumbles because Scientology is a Cult of Personality. Scientology depends upon L. Ron Hubbard having been a superhuman. When Hubbard is shown to be less than superhuman, when honest questions about this deeply disturbed man are raised, Scientologists recoil in horror and lash out because a falable, psychologically disturbed L. Ron Hubbard renders all of Scientology falable and human -- and that is not what Scientologists paid their "$360,000" to discover. Scientologists were supposed to become godlike -- just like L. Ron Hubbard -- for their money.

The spell is broken when L. Ron Hubbard is correctly understood as a mere mortal who led a paradoxical life that was disturbed and corrupt and yet highly accomplished. Hubbard emerges as a Dark Genius whose Legacy is one of Lies, for his Lies and their Consequences far outweigh his legitimate accomplishments.

*****
Shakespeare aptly summarizes Hubbard and Scientology:

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.



/////
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Post by SuzanneMarie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:46 am

SuzanneMarie wrote:
J. Swift wrote:
SuzanneMarie wrote:Gerry Armstrong claimed at the trial that he was mentally ill and that Scientology made him that way. That tends to invalidate his testimony from the outset.
More intellectual dishonesty and evasion from Suzie Engram here. Suzie, Armstrong's state of mind at the trial does not invalidate what Hubbard wrote in his Admissions. These are two separate issues, so please observe the distinction.
You are assuming that the Admissions were actually written by Hubbard.
Why? Because they reflect badly on him?
J. Swift wrote:
Ledora, LRH's mom, has been described as a feminist and a well-educated woman.
She has been described that way by LRH and by Scientology in order to create and perpetuate the myth of L. Ron Hubbard's superhuman childhood by Scientology.
Please provide evidence that Ledora was neither a feminist nor well educated, then.
J. Swift wrote:
You must know some awfully stupid twelve year old boys. Some boys are reading at a college level at twelve or younger.
Suzie, I remind you that L. Ron Hubbard got D's and F's in college, when he was college age. Hubbard's D's and F's at age 18 and 19 argue against his having any sort of college-level intellectual capacity at age 12. If Hubbard failed at physics at 18, he sure as hell would not understand Freudian psychotherapy at age 12.
You're ignoring the fact that attending George Washington U was never LRH's idea; it was his father who insisted that LRH was going to become an engineer. So the bad grades reflect lack of interest rather than lack of ability.
J. Swift wrote:
I don't think that you are presenting evidence that LRH's parents were uncaring. Rather it suggests that they trusted him and Cdr. Thompson, who was a childless married man and a family friend.
First, I would like to see your proof that Commander Thompson was married. Second, I would like to see your proof that Commander Thompson was a Hubbard family friend. Hubbard always refers to Commander Thompson as "his" friend and never once associates or mentions his parents and Thompson.
For one thing, Thompson's obituary in the San Francisco Chronicle mentions that he was survived by his wife Hilda, for another, Dr. Silas Warner's article about the psychoanalytic roots of Scn mentions Thompson as a friend of LRH's father whom he met en route to Guam.
J. Swift wrote:
Firstly, did LRH have more than one mailing adddress during 1933 and 1934? Was he living there or using that address to receive his mail while he traveled? He was friends with William Alanson White, Cdr. Thompson and various other men who worked in the mental health field.

Hubbard gave only one address on a passenger ship manifest in 1932. This was an official US Gov't record that requires a person's primary address. It appears that Hubbard was domiciled at the US Naval Hospital, a facility that is not like the YMCA. People don't get to just live at the US Naval Hospital. People are rather admitted as patients. The US Naval Hospital in D.C. does not serve as a PO Box as you seem to imply. I think Hubbard was there at the behest of the US Marine Corps for mental treatment. I say this because the US Marine Corps discharged Hubbard with the unequivocal order that he was permanently ineligible for re-enlistment into the Marine Corps. Why would such a condition be imposed unless Hubbard was a mental defective or a deviate?
Maybe he found out about something very horrible going on in the Corps?
J. Swift wrote:
In April 1933 LRH married Polly Grubb. Their first child miscarried and he second was born two months premature in May 1934 while they were on holiday in Encinitas, California. If he was incarcerated in Washington DC during 1933-34 that does not jibe with the births of these children. The premature child would have been conceived in October or November 1933, for instance. When exactly are you claiming LRH to have been institutionalized in DC?
Suzie, the level of your seeming LRH biographical data here suggests to me that you have just spoken to that queer bird Danny Sherman, LRH's official biographer.
No, my data came from the wiki bio on Polly Grubb.
J. Swift wrote: Here is my documentation on Hubbard's residence in 1932 and 1933. This is from my thread at:
viewtopic.php?t=24411&postorder=asc

Now comes a document into my possession which shows that LRH debarked the SS Caomo on August 29, 1932. The ship had left San Juan, Puerto Rico on August 25, 1932 and sailed to the Port of New York where LRH debarked. The passenger list of US Citizens shows LRH's home address in the US to be the US Naval Hospital in Washington D.C.

[img]smileforevercom/albums/i68/sadhu77/1LRHA.jpg[/img]

LRH was in the US Marines in this period and so would have qualified for government hospitalization and/or the psychiatric care of the time which could range from bed rest, therapy, medicine, to a full-fledged lobotomy.

Question: Why was LRH living in a US Naval Hospital in 1932?

*****
The following year, LRH once again sailed on the SS Caomo from San Juan, Puerto Rico on April 6, 1933. He listed his home address as P.O. Box 6, Beallsville, Maryland. Beallsville is very near Bethesda Naval Hospital.

[img]smileforevercom/albums/i68/sadhu77/1LRHB.jpg[/img]

SuzanneMarie, these official records show LRH living on the East Coast in 1932 in the US Naval Hospital and in 1933 very near to the US Naval Hospital, perhaps an outpatient who was still receiving psychiatric treatment?
No, your records (if they are real) show that LRH gave the US Naval Hospital as his mailing address when he was returning from visiting various islands in the Atlantic in 1932. It is not proof that he ever lived there. He and Polly Grubb were married in Maryland shortly after his return. They may well have settled near Bethesda. The Beallsville PO Box address is not proof or evidence of any kind that he lived at Bethesda.
In any event they did not stay in Maryland, and their first living child was born in southern California.
Rather than replying to my post above, Swift has seen fit to ascribe to Scientologists in general an unwillingness to regard LRH as mortal and
fallible, (it is not spelled 'falable', you dumbnutz).

He is probably not going to address anything I have written above, because he is lazy, intellectually dishonest, and has run out of BS for the moment.

So he will go bump some of his old threads now.

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Fanboy The Great And...
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Post by Fanboy The Great And... » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:04 am

Mmm, since swift seems bored, I'll pick up the ball.

1) No, we don't assume that the Admissions were written just because they reflect badly on Hubbard - though that is one reason - but because the phraseology, tone, times, and everything else match up too well to Hubbard. There would be no reason for Gerry Armstrong, comfortable upstat Scientologist who was trusted enough that L. Ron Hubbard (the Source himself) commissioned him as the first official biographer and gave him access to Hubbard's private papers, to spontaneously create something insane and attribute it to Hubbard. On the other hand, discovering something so insane in Hubbard's private papers would drive ANYONE away, but Hubbard was too much of an egotist to realise it.

2) Please provide any evidence that Hubbard's mother WAS a feminist, other than PR puff pieces at the same level as those granting L. Ron Hubbard two Purple Hearts and a doctorate in physics. Quite honestly, I don't believe that she beat the family dog with a stick; but neither do I believe that she was a supermother that put Mary to shame.

3) SuzanneMarie, if Hubbard was so disinterested in physics and engineering, why did he present himself as an expert on the subjects in numerous books that you no doubt own, and claim his doctorate was from George Washington U rather than a discredited, pay-for-your-degree papermill in southern California? If he was so able at such a young age in understanding Freudian psychotherapy, why do we only have his word for it when we know his word isn't worth a handful of shit?

4) Hah, Swifty boned that one - we confirmed Snake's existence THROUGH his wife, and J. should've remembered that. But you're both falling victim to the fallacy Pedophile=No Interest In Women. This is patently not the case, because most child molestation takes place within the family. There's nothing to stop Snake Thompson from being happily married and a pedophile.

5) No disputing that Hubbard was there for some sort of mental treatment? Why, I'm surprised you let that slide. However, if Hubbard found out something in the Marine Corps so horrible that he had to be hospitalized, why would he have claimed proudly to be an ex-Marine in the decades to come, AND why would he have tried so ferociously to join the Navy? The Navy and the Marines are more intertwined than a South Carolinian family tree; why choose to go back into that sort of situation?

Conversely, someone outed as an outright homosexual would have been hospitalized in that era, then gracefully released from his enlistment, rather than humiliated publicly. The theory is tenuous, but it still hangs together.

6) When I read this point, all I could think of was the song "Sexual Healing", heh. Hubbard would probably have been treated as an outpatient after a few months, especially (if the theory is correct that he was hospitalized for being gay) after making it clear that he was involved in some way with a young woman. Such an involvement would have marked him as not being whole-heartedly 'sick', as they would have considered it.


But quite honestly, this thread is just a game to me, a jigsaw puzzle - and I can't pretend that I'm doing anything but picking out the pieces of Hubbard's known early life that make the picture that interests me.

....the problem is that the pieces make such a perfect picture of a molested child trying valiantly to cope with the remembered trauma that it's like I'm only missing five edge pieces and some parts in the middle until I finish the puzzle. Of course, the puzzle's so old that the pieces are gone forever, but I feel pretty comfortable tracing in the missing areas.
"Of course he went by Ron; who would have
taken a guy named Lafayette seriously?"

"Scientology is only about convincing the able they're crippled,
and lying to the crippled with the promise of making them able."

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Post by NattyP » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:07 pm

I'd just like to add to the general elevation of this thread by saying that I'm not interested in WHO allegedly f@cked or did not f@ck young L. Ron in the backside. What I AM interested in is who f@cked him in the head.

His lifetime of lies and amoral life coaching, it could be argued, were born from the former, only when conceived in the latter.

I suspect familial mental illness, drug addiction and alcoholism also had a little summat to do with a SCORCHING underlying boderline personality disorder that informed every act of his life, both personally and "professionally."

SuzetteMaria, L. Ron was a mental patient who had a life-long drug habit due to his need to quiet the voices in his head. It would be sad, really, if he hadn't compelled so many to come along with him on his long, strange trip.

It seems that at some point in your life, searching for meaning and joy, you adhered your not-inconsiderable intelligence to a douche. This does not make you bad or stupid. It makes you young and gullible. A lot of us were. It is okay to let go of Scientology without letting go of your wish to build a better world. Young and gullible is ONE thing, old and inflexible is quite another indeed.

Move away from the light, SM! All are welcome in the Gray Area.
John Carmichael: Are you a homo? Have you come out of the closet?
ANONYMOUS: You're wearing tweed in the summer and you're asking ME if I'm a faggot? Xenu please ...
John Carmichael: What?

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