Ideal Orgs suck up cash at alarming rates

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Markus G.
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Post by Markus G. » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:45 pm

purlygerl wrote:
spacecootie wrote:I found this quote, from the $eattle site, very interesting:
http://www.sentient-media.com/building/why.html
<snip>However a key point to understand is that in order to allow the greatly increased staff pay it is imperative that the Org have minimal bills, specifically the Org cannot have large mortgage or rent payments.<snip>
So...If the Orgs don't have mortgages or rent, they can pay staff a little more money <snip>
This is, of course, utter nonsense. The main reason why staff pay is low is the orgs' low income. The salary sum used to be 30% of the corrected gross income (gross income minus book sales, FSM commissions and refunds/repayments). Moreover, the Nine-Division Org Board makes the org look under-manned when it actually is over-manned (too many staff members who shall share the meagre salary sum).

The low income is due to the low demand for Scientology services in the society. The demand will not rise with posher premises. Scientology can't deliver what's promised. Period.

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Post by mickwenlock » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:04 pm

Don Carlo has it right. This whole Ideal Org evolution is based on fallacies and on ignorance.

Fallacy 1

It is an article of faith in Scientology management that the general public love Hubbard. I am not kidding. Hubbard in fact insisted that this was the case. There is some concession to the obvious in that "Scientology' (thanks to the work of all those SPs) may have some connotations that are not positive but the bottom line is - everyone loves Hubbard.

Fallacy 2

What keeps people from coming in to Scientology Orgs is the state of the furniture and the building.

Ignorance

DM is convinced that the other thing that keeps people out of Orgs is the fact that Org staff are stupid and out ethics.

The answer to all these points? Invest millions of dollars raised from the current flock of the faithful and buy "upstat" premises and instead of having staff do intro lectures or talk to people, put up columns in these new 'upstat' places where people can receive the direct 'source' or the approved 'message' and thus bypass those ignorant, dumb out ethics staff who just clutter up the place.

There are many problems with this approach. Let me take Copenhagen Org as an example - the CofS just purchased an expensive building for the Org - this is an Org which has few staff, not many public and makes very little money. Now it has to pay for the upkeep of a much more expensive place. But it is these same "dumbasses" that DM so despises who must now do what they could not do before - sell lots of people on doing major (expensive) course and auditing. DM seems to think that being in an expensive building is suddenly going to get sceptical people to open up their wallets and rush out and get loans. An unproven assumption at best.

London Org is another great example - a hard recruitment campaign was done to force the old timers back into the org to hold some of the posts but the London "field" lacks the people and the money to support the building that has just been bought.

A lot of these orgs are going to go through hell trying to maintain a million dollar property on $5 budget. Not only will they not succeed but the properties themselves will be devalued by the neglect and the staff will, once again be blamed for it.

A couple of them will be found as the "who" and get declared, the rest will be writing OWs in between working on renovating the White Elephant that was foisted onto them.

And Scientology won't expand.

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Post by lulu_belle » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:18 pm

What Mick is saying here is absolutely, totally true.

DM, in actuality, has total contempt for staff. If there is anything he considers actually IMPORTANT that has to get done, he hires "wogs" or outside companies to do it.

Non-staff non-Scientology actors now star in Scientology tech films. Outside architects and contractors are employed to design and do the major work on the buildings. When he got angry about the cleanliness of the Fort Harrison in the mid 80s, he hired an outside cleaning company to clean it.

And, let's not forget. he considers the "most important" Scientologist in the world to be Tom Cruise, who is DEFINITELY not staff.

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Post by curiosity » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:02 am

It sounds to me like COS is aggressively expanding its real estate portfolio in the face of declining membership and income. It's a smart business move, but it totally exploits the members who contribute.

By diversifying into real estate, COS leaders secure their jobs and financial futures: they buy and renovate properties with the cash that their members provide in their misguided sense of "helping Ron clear the planet." Then COS can either sell the real estate later or lease it out. I suspect that COS will survive on the basis of its real estate holdings instead of humanity flocking to its doors for liberation. I also suspect that this is why the Super Power building has taken so long to complete: COS already owns the real estate, and it is more interested in acquiring more.

I feel so sorry for those people who gave up their life savings, retirement monies, and savings to help buy and renovate those properties. Now they face difficult retirements so that COS leaders sit atop a growing real estate empire. What a tragedy! With "Scientology" being an interlocking network of both non-profit AND FOR-PROFIT entities, who knows where the real estate profits will eventually go. It certainly won't go back to the retirees who have to eat Cup-O-Noodles every day because they sacrificed their money for COS's real estate expansion.

This REALLY comes across as a scam. If I am wrong in this impression, I certainly invite any Scientology rep to respond and clear any misperceptions that I might have.

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Post by J. Swift » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:38 am

curiosity wrote:It sounds to me like COS is aggressively expanding its real estate portfolio in the face of declining membership and income. It's a smart business move, but it totally exploits the members who contribute.

By diversifying into real estate, COS leaders secure their jobs and financial futures: they buy and renovate properties with the cash that their members provide in their misguided sense of "helping Ron clear the planet." Then COS can either sell the real estate later or lease it out. I suspect that COS will survive on the basis of its real estate holdings instead of humanity flocking to its doors for liberation. I also suspect that this is why the Super Power building has taken so long to complete: COS already owns the real estate, and it is more interested in acquiring more.

I feel so sorry for those people who gave up their life savings, retirement monies, and savings to help buy and renovate those properties. Now they face difficult retirements so that COS leaders sit atop a growing real estate empire. What a tragedy! With "Scientology" being an interlocking network of both non-profit AND FOR-PROFIT entities, who knows where the real estate profits will eventually go. It certainly won't go back to the retirees who have to eat Cup-O-Noodles every day because they sacrificed their money for COS's real estate expansion.

This REALLY comes across as a scam. If I am wrong in this impression, I certainly invite any Scientology rep to respond and clear any misperceptions that I might have.
Well, there is always the possibility of a class action lawsuit against Scientology for fraud and of criminal prosecution of its leaders for fraud and other charges. If Scientology solicited funds as a religion and did not spend the money as promised, they have broken the law and are liable in civil court as well.

When will Helena Kobrin leave, negotiate immunity with the US Gov't, and do the right thing?
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Post by RealityWillTell » Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:02 am

J. Swift wrote:
curiosity wrote:It sounds to me like COS is aggressively expanding its real estate portfolio in the face of declining membership and income. It's a smart business move, but it totally exploits the members who contribute.

By diversifying into real estate, COS leaders secure their jobs and financial futures: they buy and renovate properties with the cash that their members provide in their misguided sense of "helping Ron clear the planet." Then COS can either sell the real estate later or lease it out. I suspect that COS will survive on the basis of its real estate holdings instead of humanity flocking to its doors for liberation. I also suspect that this is why the Super Power building has taken so long to complete: COS already owns the real estate, and it is more interested in acquiring more.

I feel so sorry for those people who gave up their life savings, retirement monies, and savings to help buy and renovate those properties. Now they face difficult retirements so that COS leaders sit atop a growing real estate empire. What a tragedy! With "Scientology" being an interlocking network of both non-profit AND FOR-PROFIT entities, who knows where the real estate profits will eventually go. It certainly won't go back to the retirees who have to eat Cup-O-Noodles every day because they sacrificed their money for COS's real estate expansion.

This REALLY comes across as a scam. If I am wrong in this impression, I certainly invite any Scientology rep to respond and clear any misperceptions that I might have.
Well, there is always the possibility of a class action lawsuit against Scientology for fraud and of criminal prosecution of its leaders for fraud and other charges. If Scientology solicited funds as a religion and did not spend the money as promised, they have broken the law and are liable in civil court as well.

When will Helena Kobrin leave, negotiate immunity with the US Gov't, and do the right thing?
It would be great to catch an "Enron" before it comes to conclusion!
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Post by mr_bad » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:59 pm

Multi-million dollar mortgages + bad PR via Tom Cruise and Clambake = FORCLOSURE

Thank you, Tom, you're the "SP" of the millenium!! (that's a compliment.)
Here's Jabba the Hub as he writes crappy sci-fi while his wife sits prison...OT Priorities personified!!!
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Post by Snow White » Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:58 pm

So, I wonder, in summary, is David Miscavige either simply very stupid or conniving in regard to this whole Ideal org CRAP?

Seems such a very dangerous and gambling move to base such a massive program on a wrong why.

I am truly wondering what is going on in the minds of those Church Scientologists still in as this regging cycle is the biggest in the entire history of the Church(obviously). Apart from the 400 Scn's walking out of an event in England....

Is it possible for alarm bells to be going off yet even amongst the most devout( S.O etc) that they are within a financial scam of epic proportions? It seems all so very blatant to me, more so than ever in the Church's history, that it would be very hard to miss.

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Post by J. Swift » Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:30 pm

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Post by purlygerl » Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:25 pm

More about Ideal Orgs from the insider Report on the 2005 LRH Birthday Event:
What wasn't rapid fire or a blur was DM's unabashed promotion of himself. He sang glowing praises to all of the programs that have come from his "evals": Golden Age of Tech, Arbitraries Removed, the Wake-Up Call, Ideal Orgs. They were all models of "straight up vertical" (on a graph) expansion.

<snip>

He mentioned twice during the event that his 6 new "Ideal Orgs" brought in as many new publics in 2004 as all of the rest of the orgs combined. That means he's saying that in 2004, San Francisco, Buffalo, Madrid, New York, Johannesburg and Tampa have brought in more new people than the other 122 orgs combined.

That is an incredible thing for him to admit because if it's true, it means the other 122 orgs are doing even worse than we think.

REPACKAGING THE REPACKAGED PACKAGE OR, THE SAME OLD SHIT IN A NEW CAN.

<snip>

Anyway, after that DM gave a quick recap but I wasn't listening. I was wondering again what's so ideal about the "ideal orgs." But there wasn't much time to do that before I had to start thinking about how I was going to make a fast retreat to get the hell out of there. One thing for sure about "ideal orgs" is that it has made "dodge the reg" one of my favorite games these days.

This is true.

Cerridwen

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Post by bird » Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:47 pm

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Post by J. Swift » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:24 pm

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Post by mickwenlock » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:56 pm

Snow White wrote:So, I wonder, in summary, is David Miscavige either simply very stupid or conniving in regard to this whole Ideal org CRAP?
It is not a binary either/or choice. It is lot more complex than that. The basic idea that orgs should be "upstat" is a core adminstrative belief in Scientology - it comes from Hubbard hisveryownself. Where they are raising the money from their local members they are merely following in the footsteps of almost any other religion. I am not sure why anyone would find that surprising except for the fact that Scientology came very late to this idea.

But that is in contrast to other deals where it is Scientology reserves that are buying the buildings - this move is a large gamble.
Seems such a very dangerous and gambling move to base such a massive program on a wrong why.
You are correct, of course. But this is a reflection of certain "axioms" that exist in Scientology management. (I guess if I was feeling ironic I would describe them as held down 7's...LOL)

The biggest one is - "People love L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology" (no do not laugh, I am serious). One thing you could not do, for example, is to bring up the idea that the general public think Hubbard is some sort of fat fraud. You would be off to the RPF - if you were lucky. You can, possibly, acknowledge that Scientology has a slight problem but you would have to base that on some local campaign run by SPs of some kind - not because the public think the idiots trying to body route them are really weird.

So any program that is going to get done has this axiom as a starting point.

The second axiom is that the Public really are trying to flood into the orgs in droves but Org Staff are incompetent out ethics fools who will fuck up at the drop of a hat and who actually repel people from coming in. (Again, I'm not kidding).

Hence the need to have the real stuff out there in the reception area and not rely on those twits on staff.

You have to realize that these are not "whys" they are accepted truths.

I am truly wondering what is going on in the minds of those Church Scientologists still in as this regging cycle is the biggest in the entire history of the Church(obviously). Apart from the 400 Scn's walking out of an event in England....
It is hard to tell what they are thinking. When you are in Scientology (even when you are in SO Management) finding out what is really going on in other places is very difficult.
Is it possible for alarm bells to be going off yet even amongst the most devout( S.O etc) that they are within a financial scam of epic proportions? It seems all so very blatant to me, more so than ever in the Church's history, that it would be very hard to miss.
I am not sure that it is a "scam".

The way Scientology handles its finances is, of course, ass backwards. It FPs and spends every dime it gets in each week and almost all that meagre income is usually in the form of prepayments for service. i.e. they are taking money for auditing or training that will be taken sometime in the future.

Thanks to Hubbards insane LRH ED 284 Scientologists paid in millions during 1976 - 80 to avoid the monthly price increases. This left orgs with huge amounts of APR (advance Payments Received) but, because the money itself was spent every week, it held very little in cash against these liabilities. Making the orgs very vulnerable to any repayment requests - they simply do not have the money in the bank.

You can probably see the problem - if the orgs sell more "services" in order to raise the money for a new building they merely compound the problem by a) making the APR even higher and b) spending the money.

So this current drive to reg the locals to directly pay to the building fund is not that dumb a move. If the money is given as a non-refundable donation there is no future liability.

But that leads to a different problem of course. Because there are so few Scientologists, almost all orgs rely on a select few (or in the case of small orgs just one family) as their main source of Org GI (which is where the staff pay comes from). If those people are being successfully taken to the cleaners then the Org GIs are going to go down and stay down.

Now bear with me while I look further down the road on this.

Orgs that reg their publics for the new building and do it successfully and do succeed in getting a new building out of it will have, during that period, drained their most active members of their money. The GI will be down.

But thanks to the axioms I said above the org staff and management will "know" that people will just flood in and with DM's clever interactive screens giving the information directly to the adoring public the org GI will just go up and up.

But of course that will not happen. Possibly a slight increase maybe but that slight increase will be offset by the increased maintenance costs associated with a much "better" org.

But any increase, of course, merely makes the APRs higher.

Which raises a frightening spectacle - if the orgs own their buildings outright and then get hit with repayments(that they do not have the money to repay) they can be forced into bankruptcy and the assets disposed of. bye bye new building.

It is an interesting subject to play around with.

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Post by TPark » Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:15 pm

MICK
London Org is another great example - a hard recruitment campaign was done to force the old timers back into the org to hold some of the posts but the London "field" lacks the people and the money to support the building that has just been bought.

BB
Well I worked in london Org and worked with or knew these old timers
referred to. Had a nice chat with a recently departed staff member on this. They are good people. I'd like to be in comm with them again.

You know anything about the campaign to "force" them back on staff?

London org is perhaps the best exempler of the decay of COS. There is an HCOB which says that London produced the best class 4s in the world. Probably excorsized from new red vols. What many may not know is that london was in effect" Flag" for some time, as LRH was based there. The CF is massive. Or was when I was there. Occupied the whole very large basement. LRH was there since 1954. If this long established
org in one of the worlds biggest most vibrant cities can't thrive, which org can? The Tottenham ct.rd. location is near ideal. Close to a major world university, and a main pedestrian/ commuter street. Almost next door to a tube( metro) station.

I may find out soon what london does with its CF. However a very large proportion may have died now, and its well known how difficult it is to get off mailing lists. This could be a very serious financial drain.

I gather staff levels are even smaller than when I was there.

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Post by TPark » Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:32 pm

MICK
Which raises a frightening spectacle - if the orgs own their buildings outright and then get hit with repayments(that they do not have the money to repay) they can be forced into bankruptcy and the assets disposed of. bye bye new building.

It is an interesting subject to play around with.

BB
Is this a case of you being naive? :)

I obtained a copy of the deeds of St. Hill. The owners were people seen as operators of SO reserves and similar hats.

The owners of the new buildings I presume are not the orgs. Public donate, donations get owned by SO/RTC/CST whatever, in the form of real estate. The orgs presumably rent, and that may indeed be another income source for top managementt. But the real estate is not collectable from them the orgs. Maybe thats a why?

What evidence is there that scientology reserves buy buildings? And if
they do surely it would be arranged that refunds are not collectable from
them?

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