From HELTER SKELTER by Vincent T. Bugliosi:

Paul Watkins when Bugliosi interviewed him about Manson's philosophy:

Manson had told him that while he was in prison he had studied Scientology, becoming a "theta" which Manson defined as being "clear". (p. 237)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The insane ravings of Manson doesn't make that criminal a Scientologist and his heinous crimes have nothing to do with Scientology - except in name only.

Maybe it isn't right to call him a scientologist but just someone who did spot the worth in the hypnotic techniques that are a part of $cn.

L Ron and Charlie certainly had one thing in comon, they were both insane!

"Bare faced Messiah" Is on line on this website.

Is that a tattoo of a Scientology cross on Manson's forehead?
If this is an unretouched photo it would make a great picket sign.

Sorry PTS, but yeah it is a faux.

I replaced the swastika that is really there.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The following list of documents were siezed by the FBI on its
authorized search of Scientology's headquarters in LA and Washington
DC. They are all obtainable using the freedom of Information act,
request procedures. Complete sets have also been sent to the three anti
cult organizations mentioned near the end of this document.

5.* Write up of May 1, 1974. Regarding Security and Theft of Materials.
(How to for, breaking and entering procedures.)
[...]

8.* Intelligence Specialist Training Routine. TR-L (Intel TR's, How to
lie effectively.)

9.* FBI Document #8592.

10.* Red Box Data Information Sheet (Contains information on how to
purge internal files of disinformation, non profit lobbying, and any
information which would show that Church of Scientology motives were
nonhumanitarian.)

11.* Operation Freakout. April 1 1976. (Church attempts to drive
[Paulette Cooper] insane, incapitate, or jail critic using 5.5. and
Gestapo like tactics.)

12. June 22, 1970. Compliance Report Regarding Charles Manson, Bruce
Davis. (Manson went a bit wild on Auditing.)

[...]

-- FACTNET library

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The subject that interested me was understanding and knowing my own
mind. Prison psychs had told me often enough that I had 'persecution'
and 'inferiority' complexed but they never did anything to help me
overcome those faults..."

I read whatever books I could find (and understand) that dealt with mind
development. A cell partner turned me on to Scientology. With him and
another guy I got pretty heavy into Dianetics and Scientology. Through
this and by other studies, I came out of my state of depression. I was
understanding myself better, had a positive outlook on life, and knew
how to direct my energies to each day and each task"

-- MANSON IN HIS OWN WORDS, as told to Nuel Emmons p.69

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There were times when I would try to sell Karpis on the things I was
learning through Scientology. 'Kid', he would say, 'your mind is your
greatest friend, yet it can be your worst enemy. Don't get it more
fucked
up than the world has already made it.'

-- MANSON IN HIS OWN WORDS, as told to Nuel Emmons p.69
[on Alan "Creepy" Karpis, an imprisoned hit-man]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: dennis.l.erl...@support.com
Message-ID: <9510252121.0U0BI04@support.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 21:21:40 -0700

[...]
OSA has a standard patter to answer the Manson allegations.

Trouble is, it's not true. Manson was a scieno. He took the Comm Course
at LA Org in 67, I believe it was. Before I got there. I remember
hearing something about it when the vetting occurred.

From the book you quoted (which is a heck of a good book, by the way, on its own merits -- I read it when it first came out):


He apparently read some books while he was in prison. He got a meter. I'm not sure that would classify him as a Scientologist.

I can own a Bible and a cross, but that doesn't mean I'm Christian. And if I go off on a shooting spree, no church would "admit" that I was a member of their church.

I can criticize the CofS in many ways, but to me this point has always been a red herring.

"I...was at staff at the Davis franchise from 1969 until '71.
...Well, because of the work that I was doing in Davis, I started
to do some public relations work as well as some other staff
positions there, meeting the media. I was also running a program
in Vacaville Prison, which is a medical facility that's just west
of Sacramento -- happens to be the one where Charlie Manson was
kept for a long time -- that I would go in every -- you know,
every week and hold a class in Scientology." - Robert Vaughn Young

Okay, a red herring is a term for the Logical Fallacy of presenting an alternative fact that is not sequitur...an effort to direct attention elsewhere off a point that is indefensible, which you may or may not have intended to do above, (gently no doubt, but more abruptly in another thread HERE - a thread I considered a life or death warning posted to keep old freinds of mine alive) by implying the quote was in the book Im reading, that opened this thread.

Would you provide the page number, that quote is not from the book I quoted, at least I havent gotten to it yet..Sinister Forces by Peter LaVenda, Book Three The Manson Secret that has the forward by Paul Krassner, Editor of the Realist,

is it from another book..perhaps Buglosi's , then please be specific


Ill type a few more words....

"When manson was released in 1967, he went to the Scientology Center in San Francisco. Family member "Little Paul" Watkins, who accompanied him there told me, "Charlie said to them, "I'm Clear"-what do I do now?"

"In Los Angeles, he went to the Scientology Celebrity Center. Now this was more like it. Here he could mingle with the elite. i managed to obtain a copy of the original log entry: "7/31/68, new name, Charlie Manson, Devt., No Address In for Processing = Ethics = Type III." The receptionist-who by Type III, meant "psychotic"-sent him to the Ethics Office, but he never showed up."

"At the Spahn Ranch, Manson eclectically combined his version of Scientology auditing with post-hypnotic technques he had learned in prison, with geographical isolation and subliminal motivation....."

I find this aspect very interesting. It became apparent to me early on that the early Hubbardian "training routines" and other indoctrination practices are geared toward a few very specific, interrelated ends.

The early "training" in staring and being stared at for hours, screaming and being screamed at, imposing one's will, dominating conversations with trickery, etc. - they all have very specific uses.

One of those uses is what makes this early "bait-and-minion-training" part of the Hubbard Con so attractive to actors. Actors, just like con men, have to learn to "lie" with extreme effectiveness to do their jobs, short circuiting their natural behavior and actions - they have to lose stage fright, self-doubt and be CONfident no matter what they are saying or doing at a given time. They have to be able to demand and seize attention in order to be successful.

But I digress.

I'm working on a critical analysis of the Hubbard TRs, and the idea that other wannabe cult leaders would see Hubbard's techniques for what they are does not surprise me. It's long been in evidence that Manson at least dabbled in Hubbard techniques. Manson is evil and crazy, but still extremely crafty and even intelligent - just like Hubbard. It's hard to con a con man, and I am sure Manson saw quite clearly how he could put Hubbardian brainwashing and cult training to good use.

Right from the start, if you can get people to believe in two things that Hubbard taught as fundamental, you are well on your way to success as a cult leader:

1) Truth is a fiction; "truth" is relative.
2) The group (led by me and only me) is more important than you.

After that you can get people to do pretty much anything - like be willing participants in an organized crime cult. That's what Hubbard and Manson both did, to different degrees of "success."

A passage like this is what made me almost certain that SuzanneMarie was simply the 'Pitbull' persona with a different nic when I first saw SuzanneMarie postings.

Aristotle - I'd love to hear more of your analysis on this. It is true you cannot con a con - and very interesting that Manson saw the truth right away.

Arnie - Thanks for the recs - I look forward to giving some of them a go.

Friendly nature - Thank you for saying what I've been thinking. Of course, the lady has already 'protested too much' in this area - becoming shrill (which is merely annoying and not convincing) when confronted. I suppose it was all he had left after the mass sock-puppet purge.

Yes, they are all trapped by choice into using the limited set of Hubbardian tactics. Any time you see a Hubbardian engaged in "debate" they cannot fail to use some mixture of:

1. Attack the critic.
2. Distract from/ignore/change the subject.
3. Lie.



Thanks. Shouldn't be much longer.