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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:26 am 
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The history of $cientology is one of numerous courtcases against anyone who dared to attack the church. They spend millons doing that!
Now SM says that many stories here are fabricated, that Elron jr. is a liar.
One of both:
1. The cult ran out of money so the cannot go to court to handle the "storytellers" and their lies.
2. They damn well know it is true so they will not go to court just to prevent all publicity in the media.
My guess is the second reason. (Though I hope the first is just another reason.)

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"THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM."
- L. Ron Hubbard

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 Post subject: Re: Cause of death
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:56 am 
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SuzanneMarie wrote:
Ltricha1 wrote:
Your religion played a part in each and every one of these deaths and you coldly shrug them off...

So you are selfish, what if a few people have to die so you can get God like OT powers right?


At least 15 people on your list are noted as having died of natural causes.
A whole slew of them have a question mark beside the name. What does that mean? Cause of death unknown? The majority of the rest died of cancer. I hate to break it to you but non-Scientologists also die of cancer.

I knew some of the people on your list. God damn you for using their deaths for propaganda, and pretending that they died because they were Scientologists.
:cry: PATRICK VIC DIED OF NATURAL DEATH ,HE JUST TRIED TO FLY ....

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and david is so close from criminal investigation,isn't????


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:34 pm 
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SM: This is SO typical of a member from C of S:

You get backed into a corner, so instead of ANSWERING
or
LOOKING

You say:

Quote:
I've read it before, just skimming through. "Spiritual rape"? Feh. Drama queen


"Drama Queen"..???? You DIDN'T READ THE WHOLE THING>>>>That's a
:bs: not-is line that refuses to face the FACT That an
EXECUTIVE OF OSA INT: GAVINO IDDA
BILL YAUDE: CLASS 8 OT 7
JIM KLURGIS-CLASS 8, OT 8
and a few other "OT" MEN
ALL GANGED UP ON ME IN A ROOM, GRILLING ME ABOUT THEIR
OT SECRET MAFIA ACTIONS....Having to do with TRYING TO STOP
FREE SPEECH.

Drama queen? That's your best shot?

That's pathetic. :roll:

Thanks for playing. Check Please! :wink:

Tory/Magoo~~ 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:55 pm 
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Pitbull wrote:
There are some horror stories I believe to be fabrications, <snip>


Quote:
At sea the cruelty extended to children. On one occasion, Hubbard was infuriated by a small boy who had unwittingly chewed a telex.

HANA ELTRINGHAM:
"He put this 4½ year old little boy - Derek Greene - into the chain locker for two days and two nights. It's a closed metal container, it's wet, it's full of water and seaweed, it smells bad. But Derek was sitting up, on the chain, in this place, on his own, in the dark, for two days and two nights. He was not allowed to go to the potty. I mean he had to go in the chain locker on his own, soil himself. He was given food. And I never went near it, the chain locker while he was in there, but people heard him crying. That is sheer, total brutality. That is child abuse."

Pitbull, you can see all of it here.

And more:
Quote:
Founder of Scientology - L. Ron Hubbard - ordered lockup of deaf-mute girl
From the book "Messiah or Madman" by Bent Corydon

Hubbard had ordered a little girl who was a deafmute down into the chain locker sometime in 1968. Hubbard was going to cure her deaf-ness by shoving her down there! This came to my attention after she'd been there for about a week because the Master at Arms at the time, a beautiful girl, came to me and said, "John, I've got to have you come and see what's going on."


Quote:
From the book "Religion Inc.: the Church of Scientology" by Stewart Lamont

McMaster remembers once being asked by the Master at Arms to come and help her, He pulled up the wedge from the chain-locker, a dank and unhealthy part of the ship into which offenders were flung without food as a punishment. Out crawled a little girl who turned out to be a deaf-mute who had been unable to write her name and had incurred the Commodore's wrath.



Quote:
Affidavit of Monica Pignotti

I also witnessed a fourteen year old boy being locked up in the chain locker of the ship, where he was made to spend the night. The chain locker is a small dark space where the chain to the anchor to the ship is stored when the ship is not at anchor. The boy was being put in the chain locker by three teen-age L. Ron Hubbard messengers. I witnessed this happening several times to people, even though I never experienced it myself.
[/quote]

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"THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM."
- L. Ron Hubbard

http://www.scamofscientology.nl


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:38 pm 
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magoo1 wrote:
That's a
:bs: not-is line that refuses to face the FACT That an
EXECUTIVE OF OSA INT: GAVINO IDDA
BILL YAUDE: CLASS 8 OT 7
JIM KLURGIS-CLASS 8, OT 8
and a few other "OT" MEN
ALL GANGED UP ON ME IN A ROOM, GRILLING ME ABOUT THEIR
OT SECRET MAFIA ACTIONS....Having to do with TRYING TO STOP
FREE SPEECH.


Tory, I believe you and I both want to be able to educate people still in Scn, on the Scn indoctrination and help them see their way out.

One criticism of Scio's about critics is that the lie or make stuff up or
exaggerate.

There is no such thing as OT Secret Mafia Actions nor is there an OSA
Secret Mafia Internet group.

These are words are both exaggeration and hyperbole. I realize you use them to get you point across and that's fine but it makes you look like you your are exaggerating because Scio's KNOW that there is no MAFIA in Scn.

Please rethink your terms and try to just be accurate and factual without all the hyperbole.


Patty P

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http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/pieniadz1.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:07 pm 
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Don't mend something that works Patty... Tory is effective. No need to tone her down.

In fact calling the running OSA OP to handle the internet an 'Intenet Mafia' is descriptive. We don't know what OSA calls the programme as far as I know. :D

The requirements for factuality differs in where we are. In a courtcase it is exstreme and things need to be proven. A barroom brawl is something else. This MB is something in between I guess.

Also, don't assume that people who leave the cult want's 'mellow' critics. When I took the decision I didn't want to talk to anybody who said anythin remotely positive about $cientology. I was extremely suspicious of such people.

I felt safe with people who spat and swore about it.

Of course, people are different.

:onebounce:

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Ask not what Scientology can do for you, ask what the F*arck! is going on.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:54 pm 
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Thanks, SP! I appreciate your words.

Patti...I got it that you were not part of this group, so to you, and no doubt to many who never, ever heard of this clandestine group....it
does sound like exaggeration, or as if it "isn't true".

Here is the Truth: There most certainly was (and no doubt still is, from the spammers on ARS--always anonymous, just like what they did when I was with them) a Top Secret Group of people, run out of OSA Int, who were organized with one purpose:
"To Handle the Critics on the Internet".

*I* opened up the phony accounts! *I* signed their Top Secret "Waiver" promising to "NEVER TELL ANYONE.........NOT AN ETHICS OFFFICER....
NOT AN AUDITOR>............NOT ANY EXECUTIVES" ETC. Literally NO
one.

You call call it what you like: Scientologists will ALWAYS have another name to put down critics, as will ~some~ critics, even.

I am telling all that did happen.

The fact that you were not part of this, is understandable that you feel it's
"Exaggeration".
I'm not only NOT exaggerating, I've told exactly what did occur.

My best..... :wink:

Tory/Magoo~!~


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:14 pm 
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Location: Hop-Skip Away from Scientology TODAY!
magoo1 wrote:
Thanks, SP! I appreciate your words.

Patti...I got it that you were not part of this group, so to you, and no doubt to many who never, ever heard of this clandestine group....it
does sound like exaggeration, or as if it "isn't true".

Here is the Truth: There most certainly was (and no doubt still is, from the spammers on ARS--always anonymous, just like what they did when I was with them) a Top Secret Group of people, run out of OSA Int, who were organized with one purpose:
"To Handle the Critics on the Internet".

*I* opened up the phony accounts! *I* signed their Top Secret "Waiver" promising to "NEVER TELL ANYONE.........NOT AN ETHICS OFFFICER....
NOT AN AUDITOR>............NOT ANY EXECUTIVES" ETC. Literally NO
one.

You call call it what you like: Scientologists will ALWAYS have another name to put down critics, as will ~some~ critics, even.

I am telling all that did happen.

The fact that you were not part of this, is understandable that you feel it's
"Exaggeration".
I'm not only NOT exaggerating, I've told exactly what did occur.

My best..... :wink:

Tory/Magoo~!~


i believe you

I also believe that when scientology is involved, the truth is stranger than any lies that are invented to explain any apparancy.

Incredulity of our data and validity - this is our finest asset and gives us more protection than any other single asset. If certain parties thought we were real, we would have infinitely more trouble. L Ron Hubbard


http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shel ... /chr03.htm

combine that with

http://www.lermanet.com/idacamburn/ops.htm

OPERATIONS PLANNING

10. A believable source must be provided in an operation, thereby
"filling the vacuum," so that Scientology isn't dubbed in as source
of the attack.

A1 Ops are planned in such a way that they in no way
could be traced back to the Church.


References: See [url=http://home.snafu.de/tilman/krasel/cooper/frk.html]OPERATION FREAK OUT
[/url]

See Ex-Mayor [url=http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/scientology-more-than-evil-mayor-cazares.htm]Gabe Cazares
[/url]

"The spate of anonymous phone calls to Florida news media saying the mayor was "with a woman not his wife" in a hit-and-run accident in Washington began the next day. The "homeless man," a young Scientology undercover operative, like Weber the apologizer, had been wearing a long, dirty overcoat outfitted with football pads and knee protectors beneath, the FBI later learned."



Re-read the instructions given to then osa volunteer Tommy Gorman by OSA DSA Sanfranciso
http://www.lermanet.com/tomgorman/jeffreyquiros.htm

_________________
Do you THINK scientology works?
Then read THIS PAGE here on XENU.NET


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:42 pm 
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Patty Pieniadz wrote:
There is no such thing as OT Secret Mafia Actions nor is there an OSA Secret Mafia Internet group.
Ma‧fi‧a – noun
1. a hierarchically structured secret organization allegedly engaged in smuggling, racketeering, trafficking in narcotics, and other criminal activities in the U.S., Italy, and elsewhere.

2. (in Sicily)
a. (lowercase) a popular spirit of hostility to legal restraint and to the law, often manifesting itself in criminal acts.
b. a 19th-century secret society, similar to the Camorra in Naples, that acted in this spirit.

3. (often lowercase) any small powerful or influential group in an organization or field; clique.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:15 pm 
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Patty Pieniadz wrote:
These are words are both exaggeration and hyperbole. I realize you use them to get you point across and that's fine but it makes you look like you your are exaggerating because Scio's KNOW that there is no MAFIA in Scn.
http://www.rcfp.org/news/mag/25-2/lib-churchof.html

Scientology defamation lawsuit against Time magazine dismissed

A federal appellate court upheld Time magazine's portrayal of the Church of Scientology as "Mafia-like" because the reporter conducted a standard investigation before writing an article critical of the church.

In affirming a district court dismissal, the U.S. Court of Appeals in New York (2nd Cir.) agreed that reporter Richard Behar did not write the article "Scientology: The Cult of Greed" with reckless disregard for the truth. In researching the article, Behar claimed Time "conducted more than 150 interviews and reviewed hundreds of court records and internal Scientology documents," although Scientology officials refused to be interviewed.

The appellate court said on Jan. 12 that Behar's extensive investigation -- including interviews, affidavits, and published articles -- was adequate to establish a lack of actual malice. Behar's interviews were with credible sources who had close ties to Scientology and whom Behar would have no reason to doubt, the court reasoned.

In the May 1991 article, Behar wrote: "The Church of Scientology, started by science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard to 'clear' people of unhappiness, portrays itself as a religion. In reality the church is a hugely profitable global racket that survives by intimidating members and critics in a Mafia-like manner."

The article also claimed that the Church of Scientology was a front for financial scams and was intent on bilking new adherents, people whom Hubbard called "raw meat," for as much money as possible. Behar quoted people who claimed Scientologists wiretapped their hotel room. The article also suggested that the Church of Scientology profited from unlawful financial dealings on the Vancouver Stock Exchange through its members Kurt, Joseph and Matthew Feshbech, who reportedly donated more than $1 million to the organization.

The church sued Behar, Time and Time-Warner for libel in U.S. District Court in New York after the article was published. In November 1992, the district court granted the motion to dismiss in part, finding that some of the statements complained of could not be read as referring to the church. To succeed in a claim of defamation, a plaintiff must prove that the defendant's statements sufficiently identify him; that is, the statements are "of and concerning" the plaintiff.

After two-and-a-half years of discovery, the district court then granted summary judgment for the defendants regarding all of the remaining statements because they were not made with actual malice.

Where a defamation plaintiff is a public official or figure -- a fact the church conceded -- it must prove that the defendant made the allegedly defamatory statements with actual malice; that is, knowing they were false or with a reckless disregard of the truth. Actual malice can be proven by showing the defendant made the statements harboring serious doubts about their truth.

To demonstrate actual malice, the church argued that Behar was biased and that his bias clouded his investigation of the organization. The district court held such bias would only be relevant to a showing of an avoidance of truth if coupled with "an extreme departure from standard investigative techniques." Noting Time's extensive investigation, the appellate court also disagreed with the church's argument.

In addition, the appellate court affirmed the lower court's ruling that one statement was dismissed based on the "subsidiary meaning" doctrine. That doctrine holds that when a published view of a plaintiff is not actionable as libel, other statements made in the same publication are not actionable "if they merely imply the same view, and are simply an outgrowth of and a subsidiary to those claims upon which it has been held that there can be no recovery."

The court held that statements in the article tying the organization to irregularities in the Vancouver Stock Exchange were properly dismissed under the subsidiary meaning doctrine.

"The district court properly held that the Vancouver Stock Exchange Statement was subsidiary in meaning to the larger thrust of the Article, which asserted that 'Scientology, rather than being a bona fide religion, is in fact organized for the purpose of making money by means legitimate and illegitimate,'" the court said.

The appellate court did not discuss the issue of whether the statements were "of and concerning" the Church of Scientology. --DB

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© 2001 The Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:22 pm 
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Post Person wrote:
Probity directed a question to SM:
Quote:
It's that simple, if you're allowed to Google - are you?




I asked SM, that question, too, here:

http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php ... 6&start=15
We're going to keep our TRs in on this, SM - Your answer was that you don't have a scieno-sitter. Ok, we'll repeat the question - are you allowed to Google?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:08 am 
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Quote:
suppression of families, That has not been what I saw.

SuzanneMarie wrote:
Roan,
Magoo may think that she is PTS to church of Scientology.
I don't think that I am PTS to my church.
The person who tried to deprogram me...
...I think I'm PTS alright, and not to church members or the church.


SuzanneMarie, you ONCE AGAIN... have dodged a direct point of confront! :furious:

It's the story YOU PUT OUT THERE and you're quibbling with me about Scieno terms and details... AGAIN!

This better? YOU ARE BARRED FROM TAKING COURSES OR RECEIVING AUDITING FROM YOUR OWN SICK, DOWNSTAT CHURCH.

How the hell is that NOT a negative action toward you and your family?!? Don't even bother answering, because I know that you will just OBSFUSCATE.

And frankly, it's a shore story I don't believe... Clearly you are in some fashion directly doing the work of CoS here on Clambake.

For someone who has access to Church records, it would be SO EASY to triangulate who you are. Just look at your last post ALONE. You've given a number of details about events in your life that coupled with what you have already stated on this board and church records, would make it SUPER EASY for someone in Scientology to pinpoint WHO YOU ARE. You're in No Cal or Oregon or Washingtion, you have familiy PTS issues, the population of Scientologists in the Pac NW is relatively SMALL, etc., etc. You are BUSTED!

Here is something that we know for certain: Scientology, knows who you are on this board. There are only two possibilities. Either they know you because you are working with/for them in some fashion or... they have figured out who you are (without your knowledge) and are simpley waiting for the oppurtune time to DROP THE HAMMER on you (expulsion).

No need for them to rush into that though, after all, you are doing work favorable to them here on OCMB.

_________________
“The failure to condemn an activity is indeed, an offer of tacit approval.
All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.” — Edmund Burke


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:32 am 
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LRH on BLACK PROPAGANDA
The following quotes from POLICIES of the "Church" of Scientology are by
L. Ron Hubbard, "Founder". Source references follow each excerpt.



"BLACK PROPAGANDA"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"About the most involved employment of PR [public relations] is its
COVERT USE IN DESTROYING THE REPUTE of individuals and groups. More
correctly this is called BLACK PROPAGANDA." - HCO PL 11 May 71 Issue III
"Black PR"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Black = bad or derogatory, propaganda = pushing out statements or
ideas, the term used to DESTROY REPUTATION or public BELIEF in persons,
companies or nations. It is a COMMON TOOL of agencies [$cn] who are seeking
to DESTROY real or fancied ENEMIES or seek dominance in some field." - HCO
PL 21 November 72 Issue I - "How to Handle Black Propaganda"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"The activity called BLACK PROPAGANDA consists of SPREADING LIES by
HIDDEN sources. It inevitably results in injustices being done by those who
operate without verifying the truth." - Flag OODs [Orders of the Day] 17
May 71 ["LRH Command Items"]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"When PR is used for the DESTRUCTION of ideals or institutions or repute
of persons, it is called, traditionally, BLACK PR. This is USUALLY COVERT
and a DISTORTION OF TRUTH or a whole cloth FABRICATION." - HCO PL 7 August
72 - "PR and Causation"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Black Propaganda is in its technical accuracy, a COVERT OPERATION where
unknown authors publicly effect a derogatory reaction and then remain
unknown." - HCO PL 11 May 71 Issue III - "Black PR"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"A COVERT ATTACK on the reputation of a person, company or nation USING
SLANDER or LIES in order to WEAKEN or DESTROY." - HCO PL 21 November 72
Issue 1 "How to Handle Black Propaganda"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"BLACK PR also uses IMAGINATION IN ORDER TO DEGRADE or VILLIFY or
DISCREDIT an existing or fancied image." - HCO PL 7 August 72 - "PR and
Causation"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:29 am 
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Thanks guys for the posts on this! I especially loved probity's one one
the Cult Mafia-like actions: Thank you!

This thread has been read by over 1,400 people! Wooo hoooooo!

Hopefully more people shall LOOK into all of this, post about it,
see the difference. It's quite huge, actually.

My best to all, :wink:

Tory/Magoo~~~ 8)


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