Just some things I've been pondering over the last couple of days. I see some resemblance in the way ex-Scion-leaders avert responsibility, pointing their finger to DM, and the way Nazi leaders tried to avert responsibility in the Neurenberg trials. These are only personal observations and opinions. I wonder how you feel about these things.

When reading about Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder pointing fingers at DM and Little Tommy D, while washing the dirt of their own hands, they remind me of an old aunt of mine. No, she wasn't a Scion, she was a Nazi.
A real one, born around 1890, and Hitler-supporter from the nineteen-thirties. When the Germans invaded our country in 1940 she welcomed them. She lost two sons on the Eastern front, mourned them as a mother but was proud of the ultimate sacrifice they brought for the cause.

After the liberation in 1945 she was seen as a traitor, by society and by the rest of the family. She spent some time in a prison camp after the war. Until the day she died, in the late seventies, she claimed it was not Hitler's fault. He had not known of the crimes committed in his name. The Nazi-movement was betrayed by high officers, traitors with their own agenda's, spies for international Capitalism, or Bolshevism, or Zionism or a combination of above mentioned.

She saw Hitler in the same way Marty and Mike see LRH. An infallible demi-god. Failure was caused by treason or by stupidity of underlings. It never occurred to her that the basic philosophy was plain wrong and that Hitler was a deluded megalomaniac. Just like it never seems to occur to M&M that Hubs was a greedy, lying psychopath and that scientology makes no sense.

This woman was clearly indoctrinated, like most low-ranking nazi-followers in those days were.
High ranking ones were a different ballgame altogether. During the Neurenberg trials the high ranking officers defended themselves with the "Befehl ist Befehl" defence, i.a.w., we just followed orders.
To a certain point they were right, they were following orders, like high-ranking scions are following orders now.

That doesn't absolve them from personal responsibility for their actions. Some of the Nazi officers stood up for their own crimes, were punished and partially forgiven, though no victim could ever forget.
Some nazi officers were hero's, who sacrificed their lives to try to stop the madness.

However, most were either true believers or they blamed the system, their superiors and the covert actions of the enemy. Some even had the guts to blame the victims, like Co$ tends to do now. They never took their responsibility, and were thus punished to death or to life in prison.

Confession and true remorse are the first steps to redemption and healing. If people like Marty and Mike keep covering their own co-responsibility for the Co$-crimes, keep blaming the whole thing on the new management, they never will be forgiven, nor will they find peace within themselves.

Like my aunt, after WW II, they will have to keep living a lie, and never will they be able to live full, happy lives, forfilling a meaningful role in society. They will remain in the margins.

It is not up to me to forgive these guys, or Tommy, if he ever leaves the church. It's up to their victims.
But I do know that M&M need to owe up to their own deeds, and to stop acting as if L.Ron was a saint. He wasn't. If they go on like this, they will end up like old diehard nazi's, scorned and laughed at, not taken seriously by mainstream society and loathed for their hypocrisy by everybody who's gotten victimized by the church. Eventually they will be punished, by society or by their own conscience.
My aunt died an old, bitter and lonely woman. For Co$-apologists like M&M to prevent that same sad fate I have some tips:

The first steps of the twelve-step program to cure addictions and compulsive behavior are:

-admit to yourself that you've done wrong
-confess your transgressions to others
-take responsibility for those transgressions
-accept the consequences of taking responsibility, even if it means getting punished
-if possible, try to make amends to your victims.


The Catholics say, and i.m.o. they are right: No redemption without confession and penance.

I sincerely hope that every Scientology-member will find freedom. I also hope that the high-ranking ones will see the abuse and have the courage to stand up for their misdeeds and those of the movement, including the lies of LRH.

If they do not clean up their own mess, eventually society will, and the outcome will not be nice for the leaders of the church.
It may be like the rulings in Neurenberg in 1945/46. It's gonna hurt...

Like Hell Sekh

Perfect analogy.

Slowly but surely, the truth has been coming to light.

There is a culture of deliberate abuse in Scientology, and all the denials, dismisals, "I don't remembers", and counter accusations in the world aren't going to change the facts.

Wow, what a post. You covered a lot of territory, Sekh.

First off, you know about Godwin's Law?

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

So, I am leary of making comparisons to Nazis. It's hard for anyone to be THAT bad.

But I think you do have a point about blaming others and about redemption.

In fact, just the other day I was discussing with my son (who is in high school) how EVERY SINGLE BOOK he has read in the last 4 years has one plot:

Pride leads to downfall leads to redemption.

Hamlet, Frankenstein, The Mayor of Casterbridge, Tale of Two Cities, The Picture of Dorian Gray, The Great Gastby, even Adam and Eve all follow this same story.

Human beings trying to reach outside of their human capabilities because of pride, which leads to destruction.

Some of them repent and are redeemed (poor Sydney Carton in Tale of Two Cities) and some don't (Hamlet and others).

Sorry to go off on this tangent, but the point is, I totally agree with you about admitting the error our your ways, making amends, and asking for forgiveness.

It's the only way to go, in my opinion. Only a hack like LRH wouldn't know that.

Anyway, as far as M&M go, this has been discussed a lot. Some people say to let it go, look for common ground. Others are really really angry with them.

Marty has said that he has personally contacted the people that he felt he needed to apologize to, and that he won't do it publicly. I don't know about Mike.

Marty has held out some (small) olive branches, such as to Gerry Armstrong. Some people said it was insignificant. I thought it was a nice gesture. He has snapped at others, such as at John Peeler (a great person!) and at Hana Whitfield, a very early whistleblower. He has even made some small tokens of good will towards anonymous, but again some people say it's too small.

Probably redemption is one of those things that a person can only do for themselves. Sort of like getting sober is for an alcoholic. It's a personal journey that someone has to decide to take on their own.

I would like to believe that Marty, Mike, and any other high-level exec who has found freedom are honorable people.

For this I am giving them the benefit of doubt. There is no question that reporting to DM and being on the receiving end of his mercurial personality is trial enough for anyone. That said -- "orders are orders" are not an excuse. At least, not the excuse an honorable person would offer. Especially when a person's life was lost and the cover-up was so extensive.

Does Marty owe a public apology? Does Mike? That's where I get stuck. I want to say yes, they do. The actions they were involved in went far beyond hurting individual people. Families and friends who they never met also were hurt. The damage goes far beyond people they can individually name. In Scientology ethics terms, I'm putting them in the condition of "Non-Existence." M & M may have already determined that they group they are in is "Independent Scientologists," so they're only doing what is necessary to appease them and move up in conditions relative to what is necessary to stay in that group. They may have no interest at all in being in our group. In fact I would bank on that.

My take on it is, their defection was a long time coming. Not specifically Marty/Mike, but people highly placed enough in the exec realms of CoS to leave and be public about it. Critics and long-time exes perhaps always envisioned a full public mea culpa coming from such a person, both because it was necessary and because we wanted to hear it. Not getting it is akin to a middle finger, a "Yeah, I know you are there, and I know you're waiting. Wait all you want, I have nothing to explain to you." Essentially I think the silence is completely deliberate, and an unspoken message (not a nice one).

I've got some level of respect for them - let's call in lukewarm - purely for escaping and being public about it, and giving a lot of people the forum to do that as well. I think LRH and Scientology are a ball of crap but anyone who wants to practice it in their own private homes won't get any guff from me as long as nobody's being harmed by it. However that does not in my mind absolve them for their participation in some pretty dangerous and dirty games.

A great comparison would be John Gotti, Jr., son of the infamous Mafia godfather of the Gambino crime family, who has done several interviews claiming that he has left his criminal past behind him and now wants to live Mafia-free. Of course, he denies most of the accusations about him & his past that have been levied against him by the FBI and other law enforcement officials, including his role in murders. He now wants to live his life and pretend that his last 20 years of Mafia involvement never happened.

Mike & Marty are acting the same way. How do we know that Marty has apologized to anyone outside his circle of Independent Scientologist friends? We never will because Marty & Mike are narcissists... they were narcissists in Scientology & they remain narcissists today. Mike has apologized to no one and I know for a fact that several people that post to OCMB, including myself have contacted Mike Rinder for comment, and he refuses to talk about anything relevent to his position as OSA Director, i.e. the GO aka "dirty tricks department" for 20+years outside of wanting to blame David Miscavige for everything.

Call it the "Nuremberg defense" if you will, but just like John Gotti, Jr., Mike Rinder will not be able to live a happy, carefree future in complete denial of his past as long as his victims are still alive, have their memories, and demand answers & retribution.

I feel the same way about Marty and Co but I have to say that they have turned out to be very valuable all the same. Let me say I think people should call them out on this stuff but it is important to understand that they offer a way out to people that otherwise would stay in the cult and that is huge! The other thing is that the COS is no doubt spending immense resources to stop him and that splits the funds and attention from Anonymous. I will be very interested in what Marty does once the cult comes crashing down DM's ears.