I begin this response to the thread, and I will try to keep it brief, in order not to interupt Jason Beghe's sudden exposé of $cientology - Good for you Jason, and I'm extremely pround of what you've done! Anyway, with regard to Cult suicide (as discussed in Wikipedia, I notice a chilling trend in all bad cults... As we all may remember Jim Jones and the Peoples' Temple... either injected themselves with cianyde(sp?) or drunk coolaid laced with that deadly stuff. Since DM and LRH are the all high "god-like" figures of $cientology, of course we can't discount the fact that most of the paritioners are heavily brainwashed... looking back to what DM said at the time of the death of LRH...


I don't know what you think... but will this lead up to something on the scale of Jim Jones and the Peoples' Temple or simply, will nothing happen?

I pray and hope it doesn't get to the point of Mass Suicide...

No.

I did not attend the event in question and had not seen the transcript before.

Your interpretation of the audience laughter seems far-fetched to me.

There are some similarities with the people's temple but where Jones went for the poor, desperate and frequently uneducated. Scientology goes for the rich and influential not people that can't afford the books and training. I don't see the Co$ membership drinking the flavoraid not saying it isn't possible but I tend to doubt it.

True that the cream of Scientology public parishioners are higher income earners...but a majority of staff are utterly dependent upon and isolated inside of CoS.

Many second/third generation staff were restricted to poor and limited educational choices. Elderly long-term staff have very limited options for their future (without social security, medical benefits, external support systems, etc.)

It's the staff's welfare I'm concerned about when Organized Scientology falls.

I second that Dunvegan. I was SO so I know for a fact there is no medical benefits, pension plan (are you kidding me?! (being sarcastic here ), not even paid minimm wages. You are stuck when you are 'in' and specially the older ones. Where can they turn to and what would happen to them if they leave or are thrown out? They are people to be concerned for.

I dont know if many people think of the older SO members and what happens to them once they are too old. I actually, didnt give it much tought. I tought about this but didnt really stop to look at it. Thank you for pointing that out.

I dont know for the US but in Canada they at least can have social security benefits and there is what is called 'régie des rentes du Québec'. (In Quebec) I have nooo clue what its called in english so dont ask me
But its basically a government check every month for people over 65 years old. Its not that huge but it does help.
I dont know though how it is in the US for the elderly ones.

One must be careful when parsing SuzanneMaries posts. She says she did not attend the event and did not see the transcript. Well I never saw a "transcript" either, but I don't think there was an active scientologist on the planet who did did not see the taped or satellite transmitted version of that event even if they weren't at the live event. Since Suzanne Marie has stated that she was in scientology for 20 years and has been a scientologist off services handling a PTS situation for 10 years, then she was lying about not seeing the event or lying about being a scientologist in 1986.

Be that as it may, scientology does indeed teach that thetans are seperate from their "meat bodies" and that it is easy to pick up another one. Google EOC (End of Cycle) for several threads about this. Google Mike Rinders baby for posts and affidavits about how DM did not allow Rinder to attend his baby daughters funeral because "It is only a body". I know many people who were not allowed to attend family funerals, such as mothers, fathers, grandparents, etc. One of the picketers in LA did an interview about how he was not even told about his stepfathers death because the cult thought it was more important for him to stay and get the stats up.

Hubbard made many references to "clearing" people by removing them from their bodies.

Maybe some of them were "ha-ha"ed by some scientologists, but they really weren't that funny, and they are downright chilling when looked at in their entirety.

I HAD to quote this! This is disgustingly revolting. I cant even imagine how can a person can even go on when something like this happen. The emotional support a person need when going through something like that is a must. absolutely necessary. To just disregard it this way is so inhuman i'm just out of words.



Ok, anyone have a punching bag for me so I can get my anger out over this?

Let me give you a little anecdote as how a real $cientologist view death and I am talking about my ex-husband. Once I told my daughter something about being careful (I dont remember what it was. sorry) anyway point is her father (he was over to my place. we were already divorced than and she was about 16 than) said and I quote 'well, than she will just have to pick up another body'. I looked at him like this and said 'That is a fuckin stupid thing to say'. No reaction on his part. . actually, a funny little smile on his face.

Thank god I had custody of my children when we got divorced. To this day and they are grown up and adults now, I DONT trust my ex husband as regard to my children safety. wonder why?
I have to admit this is a stressor for me.
I have to add because I am the only one between the 2 of us that care about our children safety and would do anything to protect them. My daughter says i'm too protective sometimes but thing is I am the only one who cares about her safety and my other 2 children too. So I feel I have to be the one to look over them for the both of us.
Their dad think if they are not PTS or whatever than nothing will happen. hello?! ok. enough rambling.

IMO, this topic of $cientology is probably the one that's hardest to swallow for most, not only because it's true, but also because it contains the bedrock of what all Scientologists end up believing: That the body is basically mud, doesn't have ANY value and thus can be tossed to the side of the road without any grief whatsoever.

Not to get religious on anyone, but isn't the body God's Temple?

The fact that Hubbard's intention was to debase the body to the point of being nothing more than a dirt clod shows to me what his view of God or supreme being really was.

As a Scientologist myself for over 2 decades I believed too that my body meant nothing and was basically a hinderance to the "real me." If I died, oh well, I could just go get another one and start anew.

I think the reason Scientologists easily embrace this way of thinking is that they're simply afraid of death, like many people are. Hubbard to them gave them the Fountain of Youth because now, you will never die.

There is probably truth in that, but Hubbard put his own twist on it - which I believe is a dangerous twist if accepted.

The other day my WOG brother-in-law talked to one of his clients who is a Scientologist. It was her birthday and she turned 61. My bro said HBday to her and told her that she looked no older than 50 or something like that. Her response to my bro was, "Well, actually, I'm 2 million years old as a being, so really it doesn't matter how old this body is." She also said that her and her husband who are apparently OTs go time travelling all the time. My bro thought her statement was so wierd and creeped him out.

I was told this LAST NIGHT and it just hammers it in even more that $cientologists have been programmed into this very dangerous and expensive fairy tale.

Peace,
BTs2Free

I totally get what your are saying but EVEN if $cientologists thinks its just a body, to me, its more than that. My view is, we have our families, friends, people that are dear to us and even if the body is 'just a body', to lose someone you love and/or care about is still a huge big damn loss. And even if its somehow 'selfish', I prefer that than thinking 'oh, its just a body and he/she will take another one'.

So to me, to see some $cientologists treating this as a brush of the hand makes me feel like they just have lost their own heart/soul...whatever it is they lost within themselves and that is very very very sad.

Also, I do agree with you as regard being afraid of death. Most of us are. It is very true that to believe we are immortal is extremely reassuring. Personnally, I dont know if we are or not immortal. I'm not 100% sure. I have much more of a sceptic mind now. For me to believe it, I have to see it, have proof. Must be all the shit I believed all these years without asking questions.

Spot on Whitedove.

The fact that Scientologists believe that "the body is just a body and I'll just go off and get another one" translates as well to "Oh, Joe just "dropped the body" and will go off and get another one." This way of thinking shuts off a natural reaction and emotion of grief over the death of a loved one or even just another human being. Hubbard and Scientologists also believe that "grief" is very low on the Tone Scale. Human Emotion and Reaction is a no no in Scientology. A Scientologist therefore really becomes an emotionless and emotionally controlled being. I won't even put the word "human" along with that.

Peace,
BTs2Free

What I wrote is true.

You have lied about me again.

Knock it off.

I think this was before DM started making events look professional -- it certainly looked like crap to me. I never saw this video when I was in the church, just recently when it was leaked. It certainly would have been considered to be mediocre PR at best. There could have been any number of reasons why SM missed it.

So please give SM a break -- she is not a liar. Int management -- there's a bunch of liars for ya.

I know that as a $cientologist you learn to 'control' your emotions. Been there, done that but never to that degree. It just wasnt possible for me. Plus, the fact that I had to suppress many emotions because of disagreements, upsets, etc...it eventually brought me problems. I suppressed my emotions so much than that I would explode like a crazy woman here and there. I am doing much better now and I rarely get angry like I used to. thank god. But I would really burst. Not a pretty sight.

Have you seen the movie with Nicole Kidman 'The invasion'? well, thats what people become. emotionless. I found it quite ironic that NK did that movie. In a good way

Maybe its one reason that there is suicides amongst $cientologists. Not that its the only place where there is. I know that but to have to control your emotions like that is not healthy and it brings problems eventually. You can even get physically sick by doing that.
Just a tought I had.

As for the upper OT levels and suicide, I dont think this will ever come out. $cientology is not in its essence transparent so if it ever gets done it would be done in a very controlled and hidden way. they will keep doing what they do now which is lying. That I am pretty sure of. If it ever happens. I believe it depends which way the cult will take. If it comes down (and it seems like that to me right now) ALOT will change and that will probably never happens. If they still get away with the crimes they have committed and the cult doesnt reform, than there is a chance that would eventually happens. But of course, this is all speculations on my part.

Interesting as a metaphor if nothing else...i.e. association of
a Bridge and Suicide. Where does jumping off a bridge rank
as a preferred method of suicide?

I am reminded of Jimmy Steward in "Its a Wonderful Life",
standing on the bridge and contemplating jumping until
shown by the (would be) angel (Clarence) the real value of
his life.

Now certainly Scientology would spin this in their favor by
implying that anyone who jumps off their bridge will surely
die as a result. We would counter that by pointing out what
a dangerous and shabbily built bridge it must be if that is so!
In any case, one needs to be suspicious of the toll taker who
tells you to "go up" his bridge rather than across it!

Anyway, the Scientology bridge seems to have a lot of holes
in it; indeed downright gaps. I suspect that those who get on
the Scientology "bridge" do not do so with the intention of killing themselves, their high death rate is "accidental". One could make a good
case for criminal negligence against the bridge builders; their enticing
people to try and "go up" a bridge with so many gaping holes
in it.

Thank God for all the anonymous Angels standing by the bridge
entrance and warning the would be crossers (or goers up?) of
their imminent danger!

In the Sea Org we used to say people who "disappeared" went "over the rainbow". We (or at least I) had the impression that those people went up to INT, the top secret scientology base or on to target 2 to meet up with "Mankind's Greatest Friend; Ron. (LRH).

Now I know that many of those people either died, went to the Happy Valley RPF or someplace else like offloaded or declared.

"Over the Rainbow', "UP" the bridge? Where does it end?