Scientology's Politics

A place to post and debate the Church of Scientology.
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Wieber
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Scientology's Politics

Post by Wieber » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:37 am

I could subtitle this 'I'm opening Pandora's box.'

This subject keeps getting touched on here and there. It came up in Tony Ortega's Underground Bunker just recently. But we haven't had a major all out slug fest - uhm I mean an in depth discussion - on the subject. There may have been a thread on this topic on this message board but if there was it was done long ago. If someone here with a desire to do archival searching finds such a thread, by all means, share the link.

I'm going to start with my take on this. Keep in mind my place on Scientology's org board was right down there on the bottom. I was posted as a body router. So, figuratively, whenever I looked up it was at the soles of everyone else's shoes. (A lot of them had holes worn in the bottom.) If you want to go pulling your post Scientology rank/altitude on me, suck it.

L. Ron Hubbard claimed Scientology is apolitical. That is to say that the organization has no interest in politics. Then again Hubbard was known to prevaricate now and then.

From what I observed within the organization and of the behavior of those working with the world outside Scientology - Guardian's Office staff members - The Scientology organization is very much right wing. I'm not going into detail on this. I invite disagreement and further discourse on my statement. The libertarian movement has political spectrum quizzes on the internet. You can go there and take such a quiz as though you were a fully indoctrinated Scientologist and see where that puts you. Then we can argue about the veracity of the libertarian political spectrum quizzes. Such fun!

Internally Scientology behaves as a right wing organization. It's outward face tends to the left for public relations purposes, but it will take on any outward facing that will get the organization the most sympathetic response that it can get from the majority of the population of non-Scientologists. In short Scientology wants to be seen as everything good to everyone. (When you put your signature on one of those Billion Year Contracts everything changes as you submit to the Scientology organization's authority over you.)

Scientology works to develop allies. Allies are individuals in influential positions in society who see Scientology as something benign that should be helped. Scientology's office of special affairs, as one of its functions, contacts and cultivates such people so that the Scientology organization may behave in society with as little restriction on that behavior as possible.

Many of those that the Scientology organization desires to have as allies are people who hold political office. The Scientology organization does not care what such a person's political views are. The key thing is that such person's have political influence. In order to gain such people as allies the Scientology organization's agents will take on the political views of the person with whom they wish to make one of their allies. They will do this even if those political views are anathema to them because the influence they get from making politicians into allies is more important than the associated political philosophy.

That's my take. Many of you must have information, opinions and stories related to this. Jump in.
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
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secularpatriot
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by secularpatriot » Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:24 pm

Didn't Paul Haggis leave when the Church of Scientology in San Diego mad a huge donation to a Right-wing sponsored anti-gay initiative? And then the church leaders refused to disassociate themselves from the donation? Or even criticize it? Seems pretty strong evidence of their underlying politics.

anondelmundial
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by anondelmundial » Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:31 pm

I could subtitle this 'I'm opening Pandora's box.'

From what I observed within the organization and of the behavior of those working with the world outside Scientology - Guardian's Office staff members - The Scientology organization is very much right wing. I'm not going into detail on this.


The problem I have with your thinking that Scientology is "right wing" is that Scientology is very, very, largely a-political. Scientology has always opposed any kind of political thought that it thinks threatens their existence.

What is wrong with being conservative in political thought, anyway? You are confusing political leanings with Scientology's need to stifle ANY KIND OF PUBLIC CRITICISM.

IMO, YMMV.

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Demented LRH
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by Demented LRH » Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:37 pm

In my opinion, Scientology has elements of both right-wing and left-wing political movements. Its insistence that homosexuality could be treated with the help of “religious procedures” (either OT auditing or Dianetics auditing) puts it on a par with the Christian Fundamentalist movements. On the other hand, the RPF punishment comes directly from Marxism, which is a far-left ideology.

I also think that a political discussion regarding Scientology is a waste of time – it doesn’t add anything new to what is already known.
“This OT shit is driving me insane. On a positive side, I laugh a lot these days because I’m at a funny farm.”
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L. Ron Hubbard era un maestro de masturbacion fisica y mental.

Don Carlo
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by Don Carlo » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:41 pm

Right, Mao's Red Guards during the horrible "Cultural Revolution" forced people, one by one, to confess in front of a group. Like Sea Org workers in "The Hole now," they were compelled to say false confessions.

Many Sea Org workers have a poor education and knowledge of the outside world, but they still are taught that "Communism is bad." So you'd have to tell them, "Forced confessions are communist."

Khedive
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by Khedive » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:56 am

The LRH website conveniently has a number of his writings on politics and economics here: http://freedom.lronhubbard.org/page000.htm

It's pretty obvious reading these that in modern terms he'd be considered a conservative libertarian. He distrusted governments, was opposed to war (but wasn't a peacenik), attacked the likes of Keynes, was very obviously anti-communist, etc. His attacks on mental health professionals also are shared (obviously not with the same intensity) by a number of libertarians who prefer "alternative medicine" and the like.

He also had a thing for political conspiracy theories. For example, from the writings of a former member:
[Hubbard] had two Gary Allan books from Concord Press in his bookstores. One was called “None Dare Call it Conspiracy” and the other was “Nixon, Man Behind the Mask.” Hubbard positioned Scientology as being the target of a well orchestrated Conspiracy (RJ67) and made it known that the Church of Scientology was on Nixon’s hit list and Kennedy’s and that the ‘bad guys” were after him. He reiterated his conspiratorial views with his final science fiction books, inferring that wealthy oil barons control earth...

Here is a Hubbard quote from page 287 of the old Volunteer Minister Handbook, “He finds a crummy politician like Hitler builds him a war machine, gets paid back out of the plunder of Europe before Hitler collapses.”

I began to believe that some events were planned well in advance and made my own conclusions about world events.
In 1956 he set up his own political party which never got off the ground, called the Constitutional Administration Party. You can read its program here: https://whyweprotest.net/community/thre ... ca.108722/

He tried to suck up to the regimes in South Africa, Rhodesia, Greece (under the military junta) and Morocco (where his followers offered to help the monarchy sniff out coup plots within the armed forces.) I've never seen writings or speeches of him praising anything left-wing.

It's worth noting though that even when it came to right-wing governments he could change his attitudes towards them when shunned. When he visited Corfu in August 1968, as noted in John Forte's The Commodore and the Colonels, he gave an interview with the local press praising the constitution put forward by the military junta: "I've read it with much interest. The rights of man have been given great care in it. I have studied many constitutions, from the times of unwritten laws which various tribes have followed, and the present Constitution represents the most brilliant tradition of Greek democracy. Out of all the modern constitutions the new Greek Constitution is the best." Yet in March 1969 he was kicked out of Corfu, so in June that year he wrote the following: "The recent Greek constitution not only lacks its essential parts but the referendum adopting it was still fluttering on billboards when the government violated it on all counts despite its acceptance by the people. It is one of the purest examples of a public relations trick on record."

Forte put the following in a footnote: "Giving evidence at a South African Government appointed commission of enquiry into the scientology movement, Mrs. Margaret Nicholson, a former scientologist, stressed that Hubbard had always supported the policy of the governments of the countries where the movement operated to try and ingratiate himself with the authorities. Thus, in Rhodesia, where the movement was later banned, he offered a reward for the capture of terrorists so that the Government would not 'kick him out'."

From these and other examples it is obvious that Hubbard had an interest in politics and sought to utilize it to further Scientology.

As for Scientology itself, I would say any religion or cult with influence is going to become inherently political to some extent, if not in intent. Scientology certainly requires politics to achieve its stated goals of putting an end to armed conflicts (which it has tried to do in highly politicized places like Colombia by distributing The Way to Happiness to the police and armed forces) and the myriad of social issues in the world. When its relations with the IRS were particularly sour it was behind the FairTax, which is mostly supported by those on the conservative side of the spectrum. Also the only actual Scientologist congressman, Sonny Bono, was a Republican.

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hartley
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by hartley » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:26 pm

OK, you spotted the essential qualifier: cults like the CoS are 100% focussed on themselves. Everything in the wog world is assessed on one and only one criteria - how can this be used by US.

That has to be kept constantly in mind when it comes to assessing the CoS position on any issue. The flap that triggered Paul Haggis' departure is a good illustration of this. San Diego Org had attached its name to an open letter from local religious groups about California's "Proposition 8", taking the anti LGBT position. I would suggest that this was done NOT because the Org was following any homophobic agenda, but because the cult has a long standing practise of trying to 'safepoint' itself (they even have a word for it!).
"Hey, we're right with you guys because we are SO a bona fide religious group and not at at all a cult" was the intent.
When Haggis complained to Tommy Davis, Tommy couldn't understand what the problem was. Homosexuality is a wog thing, something barely visible in the grey mists outside Scientology. On the Importance Scale, it is -20. Anyone who puts their personal importance scale ahead of the cult is behaving badly.

So, politics. It's not important.

Is the cult going to favour Right over Left? The Right traditionally advocates smaller less interventionist government and the cult doesn't want meddling officials investigating its hidden crimes. On the other hand the American Right is partly controlled by the Christian Right, whose hostility towards all other religious groups can all too easily be turned against cults.
This would be a tough call - except that a cultist will never see that such a call exists. What can I do that will please CoB? What are the arbitrary, unwritten rules that I must follow to stay out of RPF? Is matching something LRH said to this quite unrelated problem going to cover my ass? That's what matters.
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Don Carlo
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by Don Carlo » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:37 pm

Welcome back, Hartley. CoS mostly cares about the local, state and federal government giving them those sweet tax breaks, and government NOT enforcing laws about minimum wage, overtime, wage theft, child labor, work safety, quackery like Narconon, etc. If they think the Republicans will give them what they want, they'll go that way.

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bubbler
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by bubbler » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:39 pm

Scientology is in bed with the black magic practicing politicians and philanthropists in charge of our purse strings, and has been since Hubbard started going to those weird ocean islands in the 60's. Any "political stance" the Church may take has been and will continue to be dictated to them.

" :talker: "

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Roan
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by Roan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:52 am

Scientologists are inherently monarchist. A benign, OT, at Cause, able-to-go-exterior, on-purpose (clear the planet) king or dictator is the most effective form of government as far as Scientology is concerned. Pesky realities like: other opinions, debate, democracy, congresses and senates, unions, mass popular movements, representational government, etc., etc. are simply "off purpose," or "counter-intention;" they are seen as nattering and indicators of out ethics.

Today, even the most deluded of them realize they are never going to be numerous enough to form a government anywhere and probably understand they are stuck with the governments they live under and the "counter intentions" that go with that.

Scientologists are certainly not leftists, IMO. The Left is characterized by a desire for economic & social justice for all. Short of an outright Scientology monarchy, Scientologists are inherently oligarchs, fascists, Ayn Rand-ites or at best, fiscal conservatives.
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All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.” — Edmund Burke

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Wieber
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by Wieber » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:59 am

Hubbard wrote that the best form of government is a benign dictatorship. I think it was his intent that he be the dictator.
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
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Khedive
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by Khedive » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:30 am

From what I can find online, Hubbard seemed to think democracy could be corruptible and that in a society of non-Scientologists you'd inevitably have an "aberrated democracy" that votes to kill itself. He also wrote that, "Democracy is only possible in a nation of Clears--and even they can make mistakes. When the majority rules, the minority suffers. The best are always a minority." Source: http://home.snafu.de/tilman/krasel/germany/quotes.html

Scientology itself, however, claims the following:
L. Ron Hubbard’s attitude toward democracy is best expressed in his statements:

“Democracy is probably the best political theory, workably, that has been introduced over the last twenty-five hundred years” and that democracy “postulates a belief in the goodness of men and the good sense of men in council. It postulates the belief that men should be free to decide things for themselves. It outlaws tyranny as undesirable and relegates government to the service of the group, rather than the group to the service of government.”
I think we need to differentiate a bit between L. Ron Hubbard's personal fantasies and his actual "practical" politics, insofar as he had any. I don't think anyone would doubt that Ron holding political power would end badly for democracy, but when it comes to him being on the receiving end of public policy the above quotes are not much different from those who approvingly claim "the US is a republic, not a democracy," which is again something mostly stressed by those on the conservative/libertarian side of the spectrum.

In 1966 Hubbard wrote a "tentative constitution" for Rhodesia, which would keep white-minority rule secure but which otherwise has the trappings of a democracy: http://www.solitarytrees.net/racism/rhoconst.htm

He also gave suggestions for a Kenyan constitution (this was pre-independence) where he does discuss the issue of "insane" would-be voters a bit: http://www.solitarytrees.net/racism/kenya.htm

anondelmundial
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by anondelmundial » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:22 am

http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/repvsdem.htm

A republic and a democracy are identical in every aspect except one. In a republic the sovereignty is in each individual person. In a democracy the sovereignty is in the group.

Republic. That form of government in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whome those powers are specially delegated. [NOTE: The word "people" may be either plural or singular. In a republic the group only has advisory powers; the sovereign individual is free to reject the majority group-think. USA/exception: if 100% of a jury convicts, then the individual loses sovereignty and is subject to group-think as in a democracy.]

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. [NOTE: In a pure democracy, 51% beats 49%. In other words, the minority has no rights. The minority only has those privileges granted by the dictatorship of the majority.]
Yep, democracy is Scientology where the majority is a dictatorship, and the minority have no rights.

Khedive
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by Khedive » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:07 am

Hubbard in 1980: "I will soon leave this world only to return and complete my mission with another identity. Although I long to stretch my arms back in repose on some distant star in some distant galaxy, it appears that is one dream that will have to wait. But my return depends on people like you doing these materials thoroughly and completely so that there will be a genetically uncontaminated body for me to pick up and resume where I left off. A body free of religious mania, right/wrong dichotomy and synthetic karma. . . . I will return not as a religious leader but a political one. That happens to be the requisite beingness for the task at hand. I will not be known to most of you, my activities misunderstood by many, yet along with your constant effort in the theta band I will effectively postpone and then halt a series of events designed to make happy slaves of us all."

Source: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/Decl ... /ot8b.html

Francois Tremblay
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Re: Scientology's Politics

Post by Francois Tremblay » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:13 am

You seem to be confusing left-wing and right-wing policies with totalitarianism. All totalitarians partake of the same mentality- sociopathy. Scientology is also sociopathic in nature, because it is totalitarian as well. Totalitarianism is not inherently left-wing or right-wing.

The little that Hubbard says about politics cannot really be classified as right-wing or left-wing, I don't think, although his belief in sinister one-world-government conspiracies and strong opposition to homosexuality does tend to classify it as being more right-wing. On the other hand, his shining optimism about human nature tends to put him in the left-wing camp. I think that Scientology as an organization is inherently elitist and has absolutely no regard for its members' welfare, and therefore is more likely to be classified as a right-wing organization (which you have to acknowledge, regardless of your political position, are not known for their egalitarianism or emphasis on social welfare).

Is Scientology totalitarian? Absolutely and completely. Was Hubbard a sociopath? Most probably. But beyond that, I don't think we can say much of substance. Perhaps someone more well-versed in Hubbard lectures can contradict me.

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