SM wrote: The reason I never saw any of the civil engineer/nuclear physicist claims is because they date from the 1950s and were corrected and removed before 1975. I was active in CoS from 1975 til 1996.

First of all, the real "outpoint" of your post is that you are sitting up way too late at night like me posting, when in fact we should be sleeping because we have to go to work the next morning. Posting at OCMB is not conducive to good work habits.

Aside from that, you have convinced me even more that your involvement in Scientology was marginal. “All About Radiation” was available and being read by Scientologists in the 1970’s. It may be true that COS had removed “A Nuclear Physicist” as one of the authors by then and had put in Hubbard’s name (although I do not know exactly when that change was made), but it was widely known amongst Scientologists that Hubbard’s original authorship was as “A Nuclear Physicist” because he supposedly had special expertise on the subject. Scientologists were also being exposed to other Hubbard writings and lectures in which he claimed he was a nuclear physicist. A summary can be found at this website:http://www.ronthenut.org/nukenut.htm. These additional claims were still very much part of the literature in the '70's even if expunged later. That is why I find it unbelievable when you say that you NEVER saw any nuclear physicist claims during your ENTIRE active involvement in Scientology from 1975 until 1996…unless you just were not all that involved. So again, your personal experiences in Scientology do not hold much weight as evidence as to what was generally happening in COS at the time, but I still think that you sometimes do good on-line research today.

SM: "By the way, you're taking the Venn diagram joke very, very seriously. Good for you, lolcow."

Indeed. And you are taking my response equally seriously. But what is "lolcow"? I know "lol" is "laugh out loud." Is "cow" "cow", as in, don't have one?

Figures SM that you would try to slip past my answer to Hubbard's letters of recommendation and their provenance. I am not asserting that they were faked later (as it seems to you that TEOS & J.Swift are) but that it has been shown that Hubbard had no problem writing his own letters of recommendation (supposedly coming from others) and sending them to the Navy. And at that time the Navy would have not had any probable cause to doubt them and would not have investigated their validity (as Hubbard surely counted on that they would not).

So there is no reason to doubt the validity of the Coamo's passenger manifest as you seem to want to assert. A passenger list's creation would have no connection to a pathelogical liar's ability (i.e. L Ron Hubbard) to fake his own letters of recommendation in order to get what he wanted.

Your supposed seeds of doubt are rather weak.

So the mighty thetan himself was a bigamist and a cheat....where are the ethics in that SM?

You do an excellent job of throwing around that Bad Scientology Logic...as well as bad scientilogy lies....

SuzanneMarie, that is a logical flaw. The two arguments in question raised by Colonel Prouty and myself are unsupported by documentation and are speculative in nature. I concede your point here. However, the Coamo passenger list is the legal documentation of the US Gov't. It is an established as fact that L. Ron Hubbard declared to the US Gov't that he was living as the US Naval Hospital. Facts:

1. Hospitals treat those who are ill. They do not act as PO Boxes or boarding homes for veterans. You have suggested as much, thus indicating your unwillingness to face the fact that LRH was being treated as a residential patient at the US Naval Hospital in 1933.

2. During the 1932-1933 time frame, Hubbard was physically healthy enough to travel to Puerto Rico and other places. Therefore, it stands to reason that Hubbard was being treated at the US Naval Hospital for a psychiatric condition in which travel, the salt air, and the open ocean was seen as curative. The old cures of a "going to sea", "moving to the desert", or "taking a vacation" were in practice and are still useful. In fact, Scientology's locationals and PT advice -- "Take a walk, get into PT, spot things" may have come from Hubbard's course of therapy at this time.

Again, let's look at the time period in question: Sergeant Hubbard was inexplicably, and summarily, discharged from the USMC after only an 18 month period. This coincided with his absolute failure at George Washington where he dropped out after two years of D's and F's. Hubbard had badly disappointed the hopes his parents had for him to be admitted to Annapolis. LRH did so by faking eye trouble. LRH next disappointed his parents by his academic failure at GWU. Hubbard was disgraced at this time in his life and was facing the very bleak Great Depression where failures such as himself had little hope for a decent job of any kind. We know Hubbard's psychological condition in 1947 when he was dealing with being disgraced in the US Navy and had no post WWII job or income prospects. He was on medication of some kind. He had further disappointed his father once again by his poor performance in the US Navy that summated in a formal "Letter of Admonition" from his commanding officer Admiral Braisted. Letter of Admonition at:
ref: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/warh ... 430715.gif

Hubbard's oft-quoted letter:


ref: http://www.ronthenut.org/beg.htm

*****
Suzy, Hubbard's 1947 plea for help follows the same pattern we see in 1932-1933: After a series of abject and humiliating failures, Hubbard realizes that he needs professional help as his narcissistic-fantasy-constructed world has come crashing down due to his own grandiose and irresponsible machinations. Reality weighs him down and he has no escape, save for dramatizing illness as a way of evading responsibility and the consequences for his own actions. Thus, Hubbard's treatment in 1933 at the US Naval Hospital prefigures his same behavior in 1945 when he spends months at the Oak Knoll Naval Hospital being treated for various undiagnosable conditions. Hubbard later confesses in his Admissions that he faked being ill to escape the Navy's punishment.

*****
SuzanneMarie, as much as you don't like the rather inconvenient evidence of the Coamo passenger list, it is proof that Hubbard was being treated for some condition at the US Naval Hospital in 1933. Given that his physical health was excellent, we can only conclude that he was suffering deep psychiatric problems that would re-emerge in 1947 and again during deeply stressful periods of his life. Hubbard appears to have suffered from some undiagnosed and untreated forms of psychopathology for his entire life, but especially during crisis periods. First person testimony from people aboard The Apollo have Hubbard heavily self-medicating. Hubbard himself admitted to his wife that he was abusing rum, pinks and grays. There is clearly sufficient anecdotal evidence to suggest that L. Ron Hubbard was a disturbed individual. Some who have knowledge of his last days say that he was PTS Type III.

*****
Unfortunately for CoS, the evidence is there. No matter how much the disintegrating Cult whitewashes Hubbard, the stains will not come out nor will the critics disappear.

/////

With the exception of hospitals which have been turned into vets' housing, which was the case with the Old Navy Hospital on Pennsylvania Ave in Washington DC.



Unless, of course, Hubbard gave the naval hospital address because he was was a temporary resident at Old Navy vet's home, rather than some sort of naval hospital patient.

If you looked up my name in Wachter's database, you would only find 10 per cent of my service completions. That's because her database is incomplete, not because I never did much in CoS.

Anyway, your contention that I was not that involved is incorrect.

The Weird and Truthfully Inactive SuzanneMarie...

SuzanneMarie wrote:
But I've been in since 1975, and never saw any of these C.E./nuclear physicist claims. So are you trying to arouse indignation over some problem that was handled decades ago?

The reason I never saw any of the civil engineer/nuclear physicist claims is because they date from the 1950s and were corrected and removed before 1975. I was active in CoS from 1975 til 1996.

Anyway, your contention that I was not that involved is incorrect.

SuzanneMarie, please come up with a better justification to ignore LRH's ignoring the truth of his credentials. Your weirdly truthful inactivity is showing.

The Admissions of SuzanneMarie:

* It just doesn't matter, whatever evidence of LRH falsehoods exists.

* LRH claims of degrees not earned are merely puff, not intended to deceive the public or fraudulently influence opinions toward LRH or Scientology, even if the claims appear on book covers.

* LRH stood to gain nothing from false credentials as a Civil Engineer. Ph.D. and nuclear physicist, therefore LRH had no motive to falsify his own credentials.

* All claims of LRH being a Civil Engineer. Ph.D. and nuclear physicist result from the mere incompetence of others and do not reflect adversely on LRH's personal character.

* Not everything with an LRH signature was written by LRH, therefore LRH did not have the means to falsify his credentials, only the means to falsify his authorship.

* LRH would never accuse others of similar false claims in such a hurtful way, so derogatory, so offensive and so bigoted. You are trying to arouse indignation over some problem that was handled decades ago.

* Far too busy working and researching to concern himself with such petty inaccuracies, LRH had neither the opportunity to falsify his credentials nor the opportunity to notice these fraudulent claims of Civil Engineer. Ph.D. and nuclear physicist even existed.

* Lastly, I don't recall them. Therefore, even if they existed, such inaccuracies are of a historical nature only and may be disregarded now as if they never happened.

* Move along now, trusting in the validity of the LRH imprint and the truth for which it stands, even if you are truthfully inactive like me.

SuzanneMarie, you seem to be hung up in doubt - do you now admit these C.E./nuclear physicist claims existed before 1975, with the knowledge and approval of LRH?

I've seen accusations about SM being more than one person... and honestly,
I used to think that THAT was a bit paranoid; critics seeing bogeymen
(boogie man?) where none exist.

But having read this thread, I'm becoming convinced of that. There's the
dispassionate fact-checking version, the snide/joking version, the hip
internet savvy version... could it be one person with multiple personalities?

In any case, this poster (or group) seems to demand overwhelming proof
of claims which are to the detriment of LRH, yet simultaneously ignores
overwhelming evidence or keeps open possibilities because of the tiniest
cracks in the evidence... the point being, "she" seems to have differing
thresholds for burden of proof, which vary based on which side of the
pro- vs. anti-Scientology debate they fall.

My former SCN friends suffered from the same faulty logic. They wanted
absolute proof of certain things ("I know lots of people who smoke and
don't have cancer, how do YOU know there's a link?" etc... actual quote
from some years ago)

... yet they were perfectly willing to accept the claims of SCN without any
such water-tight data. ("I know I was murdered in a previous lifetime
over a dispute involving money..." an actual quote from some years
ago)

Further, SM talks about these claims being OLD and thus no longer relevant;
that's noble and forgiving, but is SM ever so gracious with the past sins
of her adversaries? such as mis-statements made in the past by critics?
or the "crimes" of people she disagrees with? Hey SM, if someone were
a child molester, would you ever accept "hey that happened years ago,
they don't do it anymore"? as way of dismissing discussion about it? I'm
thinking most of you wouldn't... the point being, SM also exhibits varying
thresholds for forgiving past indiscretions, to the point of losing credibility.

Regardless of the tit-tat of these debates, SM's posts speak volumes. Read
them, folks, and learn. You too could join this "church" and acquire
similar logic "skill".

-

Fix'd. LOL. no cow.

Question: is there any dispute that L Ron Hubbard wrote the paragraph above, in his book "All About Radiation" ?

If not, then I submit the following: LRH claims to have actually seen his
potion "run out" cancer. He claims to have actually seen a man's jaw
turn into "a raw mass of cancer".

These claims are false. You know that. We know this, right? Do we
even need to debate it?

So we know he was either lying, exaggerating, or his conclusion, based
on some observation, was just plain wrong, and he had no idea how
wrong he was, but that didn't stop him from pontificating on the subject
as if he were an expert. Right? Are there other possibilities?

So this same man said there are such things as engrams, and that his
e-meter and his "auditing" can help you with this... ask yourself how
likely is it that LRH could be so wrong about radiation and nutrition, but
everything else was right.

-

SM, In regard to the US Naval Hospital website you listed, it states:

The Naval Medical Hospital, with four pavilion-style wards, was constructed behind the old Observatory (1903-1908). The hospital complex also included quarters for sick officers and nurses, a contagious disease building and administrative structures. In 1942, all hospital functions were transferred to the new Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland. (emphasis added).

Hubbard's address on the ship manifest therefore coincides perfectly with the fact that there was a quarters at the Naval Hospital for "sick officers" at that time. The logical conclusion is that the U.S. Naval Hospital was indeed Hubbard's official residence as stated on the ship's manifest, but this has been omitted from his official Scientology bios. (As I recall, only Oak Knoll Hospital was mentioned in the official bios, and that hospital was in California, not D.C.) It is a curious omission, and Swift poses several theories about why Hubbard was there, none of them flattering to Hubbard.

I agree that these can only be theories until more evidence is found, but remember that medical records are confidential, and they are unlikely to be released even if they once existed. On the other hand, we also do not have any records or claims from Hubbard that he was employed by that hospital or doing "research" there.

SM wrote: If you looked up my name in Wachter's database, you would only find 10 per cent of my service completions. That's because her database is incomplete, not because I never did much in CoS.

I seem to remember there was an “outing” of you sometime in the past, but I never quite caught it since it seemed to bounce back and forth between OCMB and the ESMB sites. I therefore do not know your true or full name, so I cannot verify your claim in regard to the Wachter site. I respect your privacy here, just as I do everyone else’s, and I do not expect you to reveal your name. I am just pointing out that it is not possible to verify your statement.

Kristi Wachter has asked for completion data to fill the gaps in her database at http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/index.html . She has never claimed her lists were complete. Some people, like Miscavige or Tom Cruise, are only on an "Impact" list and don't list any other participation.

Soderqvist1: L. Ron Hubbard has told in 1958 to Professor of Religion Stillson Judah that he was an Engineer, yet he had the University’s worst grade because he was interested in everything except his subject!

L. Ron Hubbard Discusses The Development of His Philosophy with Stillson Judah
I have the world’s worst grades in the university because I was interested in everything except my subject. Between my leaving the university and 1938, we were in a depression. Any job that I had had offered me was long gone by the time I stepped out. And I used my engineering in the field of writing science fiction—I made very well at it. I spent a whole career before World War II as a successful writer. I was in Hollywood, went on three expeditions to study wild and savage peoples and find out what they thought about things, and I paid for them with writing. And I did very well as a writer, I was president of the American Fiction Guild and so on. But all this time, all I was really doing was trying to eat, and pay my way, and pay for my research, and finally get up to some point where I had some clue.
http://www.ronthephilosopher.org/phlspher/page38.htm

Soderqvist1: Is he lying to Stillson Judah that he was President of American Fiction Guild? These quotes below are only part of the Episode One!

The Chinatown Death Cloud Peril Episode One By Paul Malmont
You think life can't be like the pulps?" Walter Gibson asked the other man. "Let me tell you a story. You tell me where real ends and pulp begins." The cigarette in his left hand suddenly disappeared. The young man, whose most distinguishing characteristic, in spite of his stocky build and shock of red hair, was his powerfully forward-thrusted jaw, blinked in mild surprise at the magic trick, then nodded agreeably. "All right," Ron Hubbard said. The cigarette, a filterless Chesterfield, reappeared in Gibson's right hand. He took a long sip from his whiskey and washed it down with a sip of beer and an involuntary shudder. He was getting drunk and it was too early. He knew it. He didn't even want to be here tonight. Well, he did want to be in the White Horse Tavern drinking. But he didn't want to be here drinking with the youthful and ambitious president of the American Fiction Guild, who had been hectoring him relentlessly to speak about his writing at the weekly gathering of pulp mag writers in the Grand Salon of the old Hotel Knickerbocker.

He kind of liked Hubbard, though. The kid was eager and acted like he thought his shit smelled like roses, a confidence most other writers lacked. In a one-draft world a man had to believe that every word he wrote was right. Gibson knew he had quickly muscled out old Arthur Brooks, a man Gibson had no use for whatsoever, who as head of the Guild had run the organization as a lazy gentlemen's social club. Hubbard had plans for the Guild, but Gibson didn't really care to know what they were. He knew that Hubbard had lived in New York for several years a while back with a wife and a daughter, and that they had all moved back to Washington State for a while, and that he had left them behind in Washington and come back to New York alone just a few months ago. Gibson could only venture a guess why; the Depression had made it so that sometimes a man couldn't afford to bring his family with him when he went looking for work. But the last thing Gibson wanted to do was ask another man why he had left his wife and child.
http://www.amazon.com/Chinatown-Death-C ... 074328786X

That is funny, a real lolcow. And thanks to SM for adding "lolcow" to my internet lexicon...I plan to use it often.