Why Post Where I Can't Answer You?

A place to post and debate the Church of Scientology.
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TheEvilOfScientology
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Post by TheEvilOfScientology » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:51 pm

SuzanneMarie wrote:If what I'm posting is all just nonsense, then why am I getting DDOSed?
So we can assume by that logic that what people say about Scientology on a regularly DDoSed site like WWP isn't nonsense either, or any other site for that matter, perhaps even a pro-psychiatry sites?

SuzanneMarie wrote:What next?
You finally come to the conclusion that Scientology is complete BS and that you have a screw loose? Better still, you seek psychiatric help for your obvious mental issues?

SuzanneMarie wrote:I don't think I want to stick around and find out.
Yeah. Like that'll ever happen with someone as mindf**ked as you. Please don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

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J. Swift
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Post by J. Swift » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:00 pm

Here is Werner Erhard's website:

http://www.wernererhard.com/

SuzanneMarie has hyper-inflated so much about est. Est was a "transformational experience" that was presented over four days (two weekends) and cost ~$500 USD. About 500,000 people did the est training. Anything beyond the training was purely voluntary.

Here is a trailer of Werner talking about how est happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX3mYoEYRsw

I engaged Suzie on this thread primarily to illustrate the Scientologist mindset. Scientology must Fair Game and Destroy its enemies because LRH is a jealous god as is DM. In the Scientology Cult, only Scientology gets to be right. Everyone else is wrong and must be handled, Fair Gamed, or enrolled for eternity. All of the Nazi drama about est that Suzie added to this thread is self-indicting of the Scientology mind. The entire thread shows Suzie's madness and what Scientology does to people. Scientology is a destructive duality in which one is either Homo Novis or PTS/SP. How can life be lived from that context and not result in harm to the Scientologist and his or her family?

Whereas est offered an experience, Scientology is all about building a Master Race and clearing the planet. That is an absolute difference. Scientology as a Master Race is disturbing, violence-prone, and Suzie's darkness and wrath vividly illustrates how far away from reality Scientologists are willing to go to make their enemies wrong and themselves right.

SuzanneMarie: You can change. You don't have to keep living the way you are living. You are at cause in the matter.


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Last edited by J. Swift on Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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RealityWillTell
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Post by RealityWillTell » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:26 pm

J. Swift wrote:The entire thread shows Suzie's madness...
Very true!

Suzie's madness is seemingly so great that her posts make her not only seem like she's frothing at the mouth but also that with every keystroke made with her hand is also a tug on her hair while she lets out screams of anguish! :shock:


She's writing like she's on the verge of a complete mental breakdown that will result in permanent madness (OMG, it's like she's an OT8! :lol: )
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Post by Ball of Fluff » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:05 am

Morsicle,

When I was in, I met some people who'd done EST then got into Scientology. They were deemed "illegal pcs" and had to petition for every auditing action they wanted to do.

When EST went away (although I hear it's more or less back in the form of Landmark), the cult took credit for it, told former ESt-ians that they weren't illegal pcs anymore and that psychiatry would be the next thing they got rid of.

Having been in EST was not good for anyone in the cult, cult politics-wise.

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Post by Morsicle » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:47 am

Ball of Fluff wrote:Morsicle,

When I was in, I met some people who'd done EST then got into Scientology. They were deemed "illegal pcs" and had to petition for every auditing action they wanted to do.

When EST went away (although I hear it's more or less back in the form of Landmark), the cult took credit for it, told former ESt-ians that they weren't illegal pcs anymore and that psychiatry would be the next thing they got rid of.

Having been in EST was not good for anyone in the cult, cult politics-wise.
But that's only because Commodore Fat Ass wanted it that way. If he had wanted former est-ers welcomed with opened arms then they would have been welcome with opened arms. It's all about what the drug addicted, money grubbing piece of crap wanted.

He thought est was costing him $, so he wanted hostility. If he had come to the conclusion that est was actually making him $, because the two scams were complementing each other, then it could have been a different story.

Remember, all that "deprogramming and cleansing" from est tech that Fat Ass put in place isn't real because Scientology isn't real- there is no such thing as Clear, there are no Body Thetans - Scientology is a lie. Thus that est cleansing bullshit is just Blubbtoadery put in place because he thought est was costing him bucks. Remember, Scientology is all arbitrary - none of it is actual - it's all decided based on what Fat Ass thought filled his shoe boxes with the most $.

If Fat Ass thought that auditing away little green spaghetti monsters was more lucrative than auditing away BTs, then this is what OTIII would be about. Lies are arbitrary, based on what the liar thinks is in his best interest.
"What a lot of people don't realize is that Scientology is black magic that is just spread out over a long time period."

-[url=http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/penthouse-LRonHubbardJr-interview-1983.htm]L. Ron Hubbard Jr[/url].

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J. Swift
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Post by J. Swift » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:11 pm

If some sources can be believed, Werner first offered est to CoS as a business arrangement. CoS would finance, take a %, and Werner and his people would operate est. In the very early proto-history of est, Scientology is there. Werner was on course and was a Grade IV release. Werner had a Class VIII (IIRC) sec checker on staff for most of est's existence as a WE employee. There were Scientology-style ethics at the very top of est. The closer one got to the Franklin House (est's equivalent of the Flagship Apollo), the more regimented life became. But then there was a massive difference as well, for Werner had none of the baggage of legal problems or skeletons in the closet as did the Commodore. Werner had salons at the Franklin House (an old mansion in SF) where he entertained physicists, gurus, the remote viewing people, Esalen and the human potential people, etc. Werner was supporting all kinds of endeavors financially. He wanted to expand human consciousness and was not burdened by running the surreal fusion of Amway-as-a-Police-State that was Scientology. If CoS ever pulled off a true miracle, it was getting IRS tax exemption for what is a Police State of the Mind run by a Dictator. Tax exemption was Scientology's one and only time it walked on water, and even then people suspect a hidden walkway under the water, but I digress.

LRH had infiltrated some of his people onto Werner's payroll, staff, and extended volunteer network. I was in the extended volunteer network, but was well placed there next to people who were in Werner's inner circle. If you volunteered in est and had that quality of alacrity that Werner liked, all sorts of doors opened for you. I liked the high energy in est. It was a great place to be for a young person with high ideals -- the same sort of person CoS wants.

I liked what I had accomplished in est and had been told by a Scientologist that Scientology would allow me to climb higher and faster spiritually. The Scientologist told me est was based on Scientology and there was no make wrong, it was just understood. I had the idea that Scientology could provide what I wanted based upon reading some LRH books. OTOH, I had met enough Scientologists to know that they smugly looked down upon est people as being trailer trash and degraded beings. Only later would I learn that this is how Scientologists looked at all non-Scientologists. To hear a Scientologist tell it, people in est were weekenders, dilettantes who did not know the meaning of being enrolled for life, determined to turn that sickening misspattycakeness into a hard, cold fixed stare. And as for signing on the line to do a hard billion in the SO? Hell, even Werner wasn't up to that! Get serious: Get on the cans and out of est if you want to find your way out of the trap! "Est is just more of the trap!" as a Scientologist once told me.

That is when I realized that I should do some Scientology. I knew several Scientologists and had some considerations because they were always broke. One of them was former SO with a Freeloader's Debt of $35,000 and this was early 1980's. You could buy a house for $20,000 back then and this guy was two houses in debt and not even 30 years old. WTF? How does that happen? He was working in a wog job by day and trying to get back into Scientology on staff. This guy was always distracted, always crushed. Yet he insisted that Scientology was the only solution.


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Post by whatntha » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:54 pm

JSwift wrote:I liked what I had accomplished in est and had been told by a Scientologist that Scientology would allow me to climb higher and faster spiritually. The Scientologist told me est was based on Scientology and there was no make wrong, it was just understood. I had the idea that Scientology could provide what I wanted based upon reading some LRH books. OTOH, I had met enough Scientologists to know that they smugly looked down upon est people as being trailer trash and degraded beings. Only later would I learn that this is how Scientologists looked at all non-Scientologists. To hear a Scientologist tell it, people in est were weekenders, dilettantes who did not know the meaning of being enrolled for life, determined to turn that sickening misspattycakeness into a hard, cold fixed stare. And as for signing on the line to do a hard billion in the SO? Hell, even Werner wasn't up to that! Get serious: Get on the cans and out of est if you want to find your way out of the trap! "Est is just more of the trap!" as a Scientologist once told me.
That was interesting Swift, I wondered how you became involved in scientology.

SuzanneMarie doesn’t really want to post on Why We Protest because she knows what she’ll get over there and it won’t be pretty.

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flippantmage
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Post by flippantmage » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:47 pm

Aren't the est people those douche-bags who, when they shake your hand, hold on for a long time like its something profound and life changing while they smile blankly at you? :roll:

Hubbard's Mushroom
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Post by Hubbard's Mushroom » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:25 pm

SuzzanneMarie,

You need to be honest with us or you'll get sick and go crazy!

+++++++++Sacred Cult Scripture+++++++++++++++

HONESTY is the ROAD to SANITY. You can prove that and do
prove it every time you make somebody well by "pulling his
withholds." The insane are just one seething mass of overt
acts and withholds. And they are very physically sick people.
When you let somebody be dishonest you are setting him up
to become physically ill and unhappy.

- L. Ron Hubbard, The Volunteer Minister's Handbook

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Knowledge
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Re: Why Post Where I Can't Answer You?

Post by Knowledge » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:41 pm

Cult Education Institute has some good background info on Werner Erhard founder of EST and The Forum precursors to Landmark Forum aka Landmark Education aka Landmark Worldwide.

It is a fair use news summary of the March 3, 1991 investigation into Werner Erhard by CBS News program 60 Minutes produced by David Gelber and hosted by Ed Bradley :

http://culteducation.com/group/908-est/ ... rhard.html
"60 Minutes" broadcast about Werner Erhard
A News Summary/August 26, 2009

By Rick Ross

Background

Beginning in the 1970s a company named "est" (Erhard Seminar Training) sold courses, which are now often called "large group awareness training" and/or "mass marathon training" for "self-improvement." This included an introductory course known as "The Forum."

Jack Rosenberg, a former used-car salesman, created Est with no formal education past high school.

In the 1960s Rosenberg left his wife and four children in Philadelphia, changed his name to "Werner Hans Erhard," moved to California and started another family.

Erhard was reportedly "the role model, the living example of what the est Training could do."

But CBS News reported allegations of incest, rape and spousal abuse made against Werner Erhard by his daughters and former employees.

Not long after the airing of this program Erhard sold his company reportedly to his employees and went into prolonged seclusion.

The for profit privately owned company, which still sells the Forum and other training courses, is now known as "Landmark Education" and headed by Werner Erhard's brother and sister.

What follows is a news summary that includes statements made by Erhard family members and insiders, which was broadcast by CBS "60 Minutes" March 3, 1991.

"I am god"

Dr. Bob Larzelere was the head of Erhard's counseling staff for seven years during the 1970s.

"I am god...he did say sometimes in staff meetings," Larzelere told CBS News.

Wendy Drucker was a top manager who worked closely with Erhard for nine years.

Drucker told CBS, "I would never have believed that I, could be a person who would wind up in a cult...And yet, certainly mind control was involved. And if that's what cults do, and they set up a leader to be bigger than anybody else, a god-like figure, I would say yes, that was true in the organization."

"We were told to surrender to him as 'source.' I think that's idolatry...This was not like, being an employee. This was like being, a servant, or a devotee," Drucker said.

Ms. Drucker confirmed Larzelere's statement and said that Erhard told "...the whole staff. At staff meetings...'I am the source...I am god."

"Terrifying man"

An est brochure once featured a loving portrait of Erhard with his second wife, Ellen. The implication was that if Erhard could turn his life around, the Forum could turn your life around too.

In an interview with Larry King on CNN Erhard explained, "[Est is] a program of inquiry into the things that concern people on a very everyday basis. Like - breaking through the ordinary barriers that just go along with children and your relationship with your children at certain ages."

But did that program work for Werner Erhard?

Celeste Erhard, the est founder's eldest daughter from his second marriage didn't seem to think it did.

"I have been afraid, deeply afraid of my father my whole life. My whole life....he's a terrifying man, he can be very terrifying," she told CBS News anchor Ben Bradley.

Dawn Damas was the family's governess and is still a close friend. She told CBS News that she witnessed Erhard assault his son St. John, or "Sinjin" when the boy was twelve.

"He...went over to Sinjin and started to slap him and hit him, and picked him up and threw him on the ground and started to kick him - in front of everybody and nobody moved, everyone was paralyzed. Um, and then said to St. John: 'If you ever get grades like this again, I'll break both of your legs with a baseball bat.'"

Werner Erhard declined to talk to "60 Minutes," but he did speak to reporter John Hubner of the San Jose Mercury News, for an article in WEST, the paper's Sunday magazine. In an audiotaped interview, Erhard denied that he ever hit his son Sinjin.

"Never, ever, ever...Never, ever struck one of my children, not any one of them, ever," he said.

But Adair Erhard directly contradicted her father.

"My dad...freaked out, he pushed him back on the chair, he fell over. At this point you know my brother was so petrified he actually peed in his pants. Um, you know he's down on the floor, he's kicking him, he's hitting him."

CBS anchor Ben Bradley reported, "Sinjin, who is now twenty-three, didn't want to speak on camera, but he told us the beating did take place..."

Ellen Erhard "strangled"

Erhard's daughters also recounted how he and/or his est associates abused their mother.

"At one point someone picked up a statue and hit her over the head. Um, you know my dad constantly saying: "What aren't you saying, what aren't you saying?...he himself also got up and, while she was on the floor, and kicked her a number of times," Adair Erhard told CBS.

Erhard's daughters claimed that the assault on their mother Ellen Erhard continued for two nights.

Celeste Erhard said, "At one point, on the second night, I did stand up and say: 'Please, you're killing her, you're killing her.' I mean, my mother was blue, her face was blue, she had, like drool coming out of the side of her mouth. She was dying. She was, you know, suffocating. And all he said to me was: 'Sit down, or you'll get more of the same.' And that is a direct quote, I remember every word. And that's all he said. And I sat down."

Adair Erhard agreed with her sister's account, "She was strangled literally. She turned blue, there was spit running out of the side of her mouth..."

A consultant that worked for Erhard did the actual choking, according to Adair Erhard.

And Dr. Bob Larzelere admitted to CBS that he was that consultant.

Larzelere said,, "'Somebody's got to volunteer, to hurt Ellen, to punish her, and make her talk, and make her confess.' And nobody did, until I thought, oh my god, this is an opportunity for me, finally, to get Werner's total approval. Now I can be a real soldier for him, now I can make him, proud of me, now I can get him to smile at me. Now I won't have to be afraid of him anymore. So I volunteered."

He did it "to scare her into confessing" about alleged infidelities.

Lazelere said that Erhard "didn't try to stop [him]...at all."

Lazelere lamented, "It was a despicable thing to do. And it took me days to realize it. Afterward. When I began to let myself feel again. It was, my god, it was like a nightmare. That I could have, gone that far, with wanting to please, wanting to get approval from, wanting to get love from another human being, to do that."

Erhard's daughters also told CBS that their father wouldn't allow their mother to live with them for two years. Adair Erhard said that periodically Ellen Erhard was allowed to come into the house, but "like a maid" to "scrub the floors." And the daughters "had to watch this," but "weren't allowed to speak with her."

Adair Erhard explained, "You know, he, whatever he said, that she should do, she had to do. And that was part of the instructions. Yeah, you have to be a maid for your house...I wanted to - say something so bad, or just do something about it, and there's, it's just so petrified all the time and there's just no way I could be okay with myself to, to tell anybody or to do anything about what was going on."

In an audiotaped interview Erhard dismissed these accounts about his marital relationship.

"Essentially nonsense. Ellen was never a maid. Ellen was my wife, and I always treated her like my wife," he said.

Ellen Erhard divorced her husband and reportedly as part of the divorce settlement she cannot talk publicly about their marriage.

Adair Erhard told CBS that her mother was grateful though that she chose to speak out about her father's behavior and wished she could do the same.

"Rape"

Deborah Rosenberg is one of Erhard's daughters, from his first marriage. Ms. Rosenberg told CBS that her father "molested" her when she was sixteen. She also claimed that Erhard had abused her siblings with "pornography all the way to rape."

She told Ben Bradley, "I wasn't there. But I believe my sister when she says that my father raped her...forcibly had sexual intercourse with her."

Erhard said that the rape never happened in an audiotaped interview.

But Deborah Rosenberg told CBS that when she confronted her father about this claim he admitted, "There had been sexual intercourse, and that it had been a nurturing experience for my sister. He said that 'I did not rape her.'"

When Deborah Rosenberg repeated what her father said to her sister she said that her response to his explanation was that "it was not a nurturing experience for her. And she's had to have a lot of therapy about that" and it was not consensual.

Governess Dawn Damas told "60 Minutes" that Erhard's daughters told CBS "true things about their father that are terrible...he beats his wife, and he beats his children, and rapes a daughter - and then he goes and tells people how to have marvelous relationships. I'm sorry, that's what I have against Werner Erhard."

Celeste Erhard commented about her relationship with her father as an adult.

"I kept thinking - that he would be a father, I kept thinking that when he got older, he'd want children, and he'd want his daughters. I just, I, I really thought that. You know that maybe he'd get wiser with age and he'd regret what he'd done, but um, he didn't," she said.

Erhard's response

Erhard's lawyers sent CBS affidavits from his sister and brother and from a few of his close associates disputing some of the stories from his children and denying that Erhard ever abused his wife.

Erhard stated, "There is only one appropriate response to these allegations, to heal and restore my family. And that is what I will do. To respond to the accusations at this time, would only further publicly exploit my family, and there has already been enough of that."

To see more documents/articles regarding this group/organization/subject click here. http://culteducation.com/group/908-est.html
http://culteducation.com/group/908-est/ ... rhard.html

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Re: Why Post Where I Can't Answer You?

Post by KenPatrick » Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:31 am

Yes Ellen Erhard divorced her husband and reportedly as part of the divorce settlement she cannot talk publicly about their marriage.

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Re: Why Post Where I Can't Answer You?

Post by KenPatrick » Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:00 am

CBS took this action at their own initiation as a matter of journalistic integrity because the accusations made during the program proved to be false, and not as a result of any legal pressure from Mr. Erhard as has been falsely reported.

Lionahul35
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Why Post Where I Cant Answer You

Post by Lionahul35 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:12 am

doesnt the Quran state that if you speak against Allah, youre to be slain? isnt that pretty immoral? i cant fathom anybody reading that book and seeing it for the contradictory bullshit that it is. just like most religious texts.

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Re: Why Post Where I Can't Answer You?

Post by KenPatrick » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:46 am

No. The examples given are ridiculously out of context. If you look at verses that discuss the issue in an appropriate context, you see that Islam proposes something akin to a just war position.

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