Hubbard and Heinlein

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Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby caroline » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:48 am

The Robert A. and Virginia Heinlein archives add significantly to known and published information about Hubbard during his pre-and early Dianetics period. He and Heinlein connect in a number of areas, which results in some overlap in research and posting threads, e.g., Hubbard and the Babalon Working, Hubbard and Korzybski, and Snake Thompson. In this thread, I mean to point to events or documents that don't belong in any of those three threads, but which add to understanding Hubbard through the Heinlein relationship.

A number of researchers, and of course Scientology’s PR people and shills, over many years have written about the relationship, and many of its relevant incidents and connections have already been established. Scientology's obsessive revisionism when it comes its founder's past will make it advisable for the foreseeable future to occasionally revisit and re-establish the facts.

Russell Miller's Bare-faced Messiah provides a basic backdrop for the Heinlein relationship:

In Bare-Faced Messiah,Russell Miller wrote:As an editor, [John W.] Campbell used his magazine to speculate on the implications - emotional, philosophical and sociological - of future scientific discoveries. He expected style, skill, ingenuity and technical proficiency from his contributors. Few of the existing pulp writers could meet his exacting standards and so he set out to nurture new talent. Almost all the biggest names of the Golden Age - Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, A.E. van Vogt and many others - were first published in Astounding. (p. 77)

[...]

While he was at Princeton, Ron was invited to join a group of science-fiction writers who met every weekend at Robert Heinlein's apartment in Philadelphia to discuss possible ways of countering the Kamikaze menace in the Pacific. They were semi-official, brainstorming sessions that Heinlein had been asked to organize by the Navy, in the faint hope of coming up with a defence against young Japanese pilots on suicide missions. 'I had been ordered to round up science fiction writers for this crash project,' Heinlein recalled, 'the wildest brains I could find.'[16]

Heinlein's apartment was only three hundred yards from Broad Street Station in downtown Philadelphia and the group gathered on Saturday afternoons, arriving on Pennsylvania Railroad trains which ran every half hour into Broad Street. 'On Saturday nights there would be two or three in my bed,' said Heinlein, 'a couple on the couch and the rest on the living-room floor. If there was still overflow, I sent them a block down the street to a friend with more floor space if not beds.'

Heinlein tried to avoid asking Ron to walk down the street as Ron had said that both his feet had been broken when his last ship was bombed. 'Ron had had a busy war - sunk four times and wounded again and again,' Heinlein explained sympathetically.

Sunday morning was set aside for the working session, after which everyone sat around swapping stories and jokes. Ron often got out his guitar and entertained them in a rich baritone voice with songs like 'Fifteen Men on a Dead Man's Chest' and 'I Learned about Women from Her'. He could also reduce the assembled company to helpless laughter with his repertoire of fast-moving burlesque skits in which he played all the roles.

_______________
15. Deck log of USS Algol, US National Archives
16. Foreword to Godbody by Theodore Sturgeon, 1986

109


On Saturday 2 December, Jack Williamson, then a Sergeant in the US Army, hosted a dinner in Philadelphia for fellow science-fiction writers and their wives. He was to be sent overseas in a couple of days and this was his farewell party. Among those present were the Heinleins, the de Camps, the Asimovs and L. Ron Hubbard. 'The star of the evening', Isaac Asimov recalled, 'was Ron Hubbard. Heinlein, de Camp and I were each prima donna-ish and each liked to hog the conversation - ordinarily. On this occasion, however, we all sat as quietly as pussycats and listened to Hubbard. He told tales with perfect aplomb and in complete paragraphs.'[17]

The host was less impressed. 'Hubbard was just back from the Aleutians then,' said Williamson, 'hinting of desperate action aboard a Navy destroyer, adventures he couldn't say much about because of military security.

'I recall his eyes, the wary, light-blue eyes that I somehow associate with the gunmen of the old West, watching me sharply as he talked as if to see how much I believed. Not much.'[18]

Heinlein's group never came up with any ideas about how to prevent US Navy losses from Kamikaze pilots, but it did not matter much because the war was drawing to a close and Japan was running out of aircraft and pilots to fly them. The last big Kamikaze strike was launched in January 1945 against the US fleet (including Ron's old ship, the USS Algol) taking part in the invasion of Luzon. That same month Ron was transferred to the Naval Civil Affairs Staging Area in Monterey, California, for further training, having finished about mid-way among the 300 students on his course at the school of Military Government. In April he again reported sick and a possible ulcer was diagnosed. (p. 109-110)

_______________
17. Asimov, op. cit.
18. Williamson, op. cit.


Miller, R. (1987). Bare-faced messiah: The true story of L. Ron Hubbard. (HTML Version 2 (22 Nov 1997).


Chris Owen's Ron the "War Hero" is an indispensable account of Hubbard's navy record and of his stolen valor. The issue of Hubbard's false medal claims has entered the criminality realm since the US passed the Stolen Valor Act, and has become immediately relevant in Scientology's dealings with The New Yorker.

In this excerpt, Owen appears to have borrowed liberally from Miller in his description of the early brainstorming sessions in Philadelphia.

In Ron the "War Hero", Chris Owen wrote:While [Hubbard] was at Princeton, he was invited to join a group of science-fiction writers who met every weekend at Robert Heinlein's apartment in Philadelphia to discuss possible ways of countering the Kamikaze menace in the Pacific. They were semi-official, brainstorming sessions that Heinlein had been asked to organize by the Navy, in the faint hope of coming up with a defence against young Japanese pilots on suicide missions. "I had been ordered to round up science fiction writers for this crash project," Heinlein later commented, "the wildest brains I could find." [2]

Heinlein recalled that he had tried to avoid asking Hubbard to walk down the street as the latter had said that both his feet had been broken when his last ship was bombed: "Ron had had a busy war - sunk four times and wounded again and again."

Another of the group, Jack Williamson, then a Sergeant in the US Army, held a dinner on December 2, 1944 for his fellow writers and their wives. Hubbard told his colleagues of his adventures earlier that year. "Hubbard was just back from the Aleutians then," said Williamson, "hinting of desperate action aboard a Navy destroyer, adventures he couldn't say much about because of military security ... I recall his eyes, the wary, light-blue eyes that I somehow associate with the gunmen of the old West, watching me sharply as he talked as if to see how much I believed. Not much." [3]
___________
[2] Heinlein, foreword to Godbody, Theodore Sturgeon, 1986

[3] Williamson, Wonder's Child: My Life in Science Fiction, 1984

Owen, C. (1999). Ron the "War Hero": L. Ron Hubbard and the U. S. Navy. Retrieved 23 January 2011 from http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/warhero/crippled.htm


Jon Atack gives a quick nod to the sci fi angle in his 1990 exposé.

In A piece of blue sky: Scientology, Dianetics, and L. Ron Hubbard exposed, Jon Atack wrote:Hubbard joined editor John Campbell's circle of friends, and became a major contributor to the reshaping of science fiction which Campbell brought about. Campbell was also to figure in the birth of Dianetics, twelve years later. Recently this pre-war period has been dubbed the Golden Age of Science Fiction. Hubbard's work appeared alongside that of Robert Heinlien [sic], A.E. van Vogt, and Isaac Asimov, each of whom has stated his admiration for Hubbard's stories. Although Hubbard's writing was patchy in places, he certainly had a very inventive imagination. He became a regular contributor to Astounding, moving back to New York in the autumn of 1939.

Atack, J. (1990). A piece of blue sky: Scientology, Dianetics, and L. Ron Hubbard exposed. Retrieved 23 January 2011 from http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/atack/bs2-3.htm


Corydon, in Messiah or Madman mentions that Heinlein was a "one-time friend of Hubbard's."

In L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman?,Bent Corydon wrote:When viewing the Commodore's ship Apollo, the law to be adhered to was more like, "Do What Ron Wilt," the officers and crew being subjected to the strictest of rigors, while Ron did as he pleased. His will was supreme.

Robert Heinlein, a one-time friend of' Hubbard's, suggested this well in a recent novel. He referred to his followers as "L. Ronners" and "Hubbardites." Some ex-Scientologists use the term "Rondroids." The stable dictum for his followers is his written or spoken intention: "Do WHAT RON SAYS."

Corydon, B. (1987). L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman? clambake.org. Retrieved on 23 January 2011 from http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/mom/Messiah_or_Madman.txt.


In the Snake Thompson thread, I posted a quote from William Sim Bainbridge's "The Cultural Context of Scientology". In the following excerpt from the same essay, published in Scientology (2009), Bainbridge mentions Heinlein as one of the authors in the Astounding circle, and gives him a special mention as the "dean" of science fiction.

In The Cultural Context of Scientology, William Sims Bainbridge wrote:Mr. Hubbard really had two careers as a science fiction writer. First, from about 1938 until the establishment of Dianetics in the early 1950s, he was one of a stable of authors associated with Astounding Science Fiction, edited by John W. Campbell, Jr., the flagship of the so-called golden age of science fiction (Rogers, 1964). His second career consisted of a series of epic novels, beginning in 1982 with Battlefield Earth, which was made into a movie in 2000 starring John Travolta, a Scientologist. Among the other authors in the Astounding circle who were close to Mr. Hubbard especially worth mentioning are the "dean" of science fiction writers, Robert A. Heinlein, and A. E. Van Vogt.

Lewis, J. R. (Ed.). (2009). Scientology. New York ; Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Bainbridge goes on to provide a detailed analysis of popularity polls on Hubbard, Heinlein, E.E. Doc Smith, Asimov, Chandler, Budrys, and Van Vogt, along with a graph to "show how the subculture of science fiction "fandom" has changed its views of some of the older writers."

Interestingly, in another article published in Scientology, Andreas Grűnschloβ links the Xenu incident to Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.
In Scientology, a "New Age" Religion?, Andreas Grűnschloβ wrote:This UFOlogical connection is explicitly apparent in the foundation myth of Scientology's "Operating Thetan" (OT) anthropology. According to the secret doctrines of Scientology—which are nowadays far from arcane, as information about court trials and other disclosures by former members appear in hundreds of pages on the Internet—there once was a fierce intergalactic ruler named Xenu, who brought millions of thetans to this Earth (which back then carried the name Teegeack"), and that is how their (i.e., our) life started in this region of the universe ("sector nine"). Amazingly, this story, which forms the central core myth in OT level III initiation teachings, [26] was rewritten by Hubbard as a mere science fiction novel in the late 1970s. As such, it carries the title Revolt in the Stars, and it has so far not been officially published. Copies of the manuscript circulate every now and then on the Internet. It is an amazing piece and trustworthy in terms of Hubbard's authorship—according to style, phrasing, and content.[27] This oscillation between the production of mythic core stories and mere fantasy tales is also a characteristic typical of modern esoteric traditions: Helena P. Blavatsky, for example, wrote fantasy tales beside her theosophical disclosures, [28] and Charles Hoy Fort's alternative, anomalistic science in his Book of the Damned (and the three follow-up volumes) [29] inspired fantasy authors like H. P. Lovecraft as well as esoteric seekers. Erich von Daniken, working along Charles Fort's lines, also oscillates between fantasy and fringe historiography/archaeology, and his "Ancient Astronaut" stories have often been often reabsorbed by esoteric and UFO-believing groups.[30] The framework story in Hubbard's Revolt in the Stars does, by the way, include the idea of a time capsule in the vein of the Ancient Astronauts' scheme.[31 ]

_________
[26] Robert Kaufman, Inside Scientology (London: Olympia Press, 1972) was among the first (if not the first) to publish a disclosure of this mythic story. Nowadays, even copies of Hubbard's handwritten sheets containing this story are circulating on the Internet.

[27] It contains Hubbard's typical imagery of women, an evil psychiatrist, on the other hand "loyal officers," and the usual Star Wars scenario inside a "Galactic Confederation." Compared to other published fictional writings by Hubbard, it appears very genuine. (Probably due to legal reasons, no existing copy could be located via Web searches at the moment.) The story contains the struggle between the intergalactic ruler Xenu and the "loyal officers" who, in the end, manage to overthrow his despotic rule after he murdered all disobedient subjects on the "extermination site" earth by bombing them on volcanoes (cf. esp. chapter 14).

[28.] Cf. Marco Frenschkowski, "Okkultismus und Phantastik: eine Studie zu ihrem verhaltnis am Beispiel der Helena Petrovna Blavatsky," in: Das Schwarze Geheimnis. Magazinfur unheimliche Literatur 4 (1999): 53-104.
Or, take Heinlein's science fiction novel "Stranger in a Strange Land," which in turn inspired the formation of a neo-pagan movement calling itself actually "Church of all Worlds," like the neo-Martian religion in the novel. One could go on to the Star Trek culture, to Heaven's Gate, and the Raelians.

Lewis, J. R. (Ed.). (2009).Scientology. New York ; Oxford: Oxford University Press.


Adam Rostoker (1959-1997) argued that Robert A. Heinlein wrote Stranger in a Strange Land as an "allegorical recapitulation of Thelema" and linked Stranger to the Babalon Working through the words of Parsons' "scribe," L. Ron Hubbard.

In Whence Came the Stranger: Tracking the Metapattern of Stranger in a Strange Land, Adam Walks Between Worlds wrote:In 1961 Robert Anson Heinlein published a novel about a young Martian named Valentine Michael Smith. The book, Stranger in a Strange Land (Stranger), burst from its modest initial reception in science fiction circles to become one of the most influential works of the 20th century. Its concepts molded the critical thinking of many important social movements and paved the way for that astonishing period of social, religious, and sexual reclamation that is misleadingly dubbed "the 60s."[1] Arriving, as it did, at a nadir of American free thought and at a peak of media censorship, Stranger's publication was a minor miracle and its later mainstream success has always been considered a first class fluke. It became the first science novel to penetrate public consciousness since the days of Verne and Wells and initiated an unprecedented era of respectability for science fiction that opened the door for the Star Trek, 2001 and Star Wars. Stranger also marked a radical departure of form, not only for the author, but for American thought and expression in general. Stranger was the quintessence that transformed the nation's repressively conformist, post-war paranoia into the overtly sensual, erudite, cynical optimism that epitomized the years preceding the Reagan administration.

[...]

This recalls Heinlein's link with Parsons. As a part of the Babalon Working, Parsons 'received' a short 'book' entitled Liber 49 or The Book of Babalon. Parsons claims it was the fourth chapter to Liber Legis, a claim which made him less than popular with Crowley and the OTO. Regardless of this claim, it is a powerful text that deals mostly with the coming of the Thelemic heir. There are two parts in particular that stand out after reading Stranger. The first is part of the channeled instructions to Parsons for the ritual -- it advises him to clear his mind in preparation: "Consult no book but thine own mind. Thou art god. Behave at this altar as one god before another." [101]
It is interesting to note that these words were mouthed, not by Parsons, but by his Scribe, L. Ron Hubbard, who was close friends with Heinlein at about the same time the latter was working on his first shot at Stranger. The other Babalon Working quote which stands out, and there are many quotes which are not so overt, comes from Liber 49 which Parsons channeled alone out in the desert -- e.g., sans Hubbard: "37 For I am BABALON, and she my daughter, unique, and there shall be no other women like her. 38. In My Name shall she have all power, and all men and excellent things, and kings and captains and the secret ones at her command. 39. The first servants are chosen in secret, by my force in her - a captain, a lawyer, an agitator, a rebel - I shall provide." (Italics added)
______________

[1] Most of "the 60s" as a popular movement didn't even start until around '65 and didn't really end until well after Nixon got re-elected in '72. The most active period occurred between 1968-74 and in fact, most of "the '60s" are still happening. Referring to "the 60s" quarantines a radical, ongoing, whole systems transition and reduces it to a mere historical fad.

[101] The Collected Works of Jack Parsons, OTO, NY from the "First Ritual of the Book of Babalon".

Adam Walks Between Worlds (Adam Rostoker) (1993). Whence Came the Stranger: Tracking the Metapattern of Stranger in a Strange Land. Retrieved on 18 January 2011 from http://firehead.org/~pturing/occult/grok/thelema.htm. Also at http://www.greylodge.org/occultreview/glor_002/stranger.htm


___
Edit: Added a link to the Snake Thompson thread.
Last edited by caroline on Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby peter » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:34 am

Soderqvist1: this is an account about Walter Gibson encountering in the Mid Thirties with the alleged president of the American Fiction Guild; L. Ron Hubbard!
http://www.amazon.com/Chinatown-Death-C ... 074328786X
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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby hartley » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:55 am

To correct Bainbridge's confusion:
His second career consisted of a series of epic novels, beginning in 1982 with Battlefield Earth, which was made into a movie in 2000 starring John Travolta, a Scientologist.

He wrote two novels, Battlefield Earth and Mission:Earth. The latter, the longest SF novel ever published, appeared in ten volumes edited by Robert Young so they appeared to be separate works. This led to a myth in SF fandom that the later volumes, published posthumously, were authored by Scientologists (obviously not by professional ghost writers since they were so bad).

Bainbridge fails to mention a number of things.
A number of Astounding readers got involved in Dianetics after Campbell recommended it. Following its collapse they were I would suppose as antagonistic to it as others who felt they had wasted their time.

In 1987 the CoS sponsored the World Science Fiction Convention. That sorry tale is told by Dave Langford:
http://www.ansible.co.uk/misc/ct-langford.html
Briefly, Church officials were their normal unpleasant selves to the extent, it is suspected, of trying to block vote Hubbard an Award - the only attempt by mundanes (non SF fans) to do so.

Bainbridge, like most of the contributors to 'Scientology', sins by omission. He gives the impression of not having looked on the Internet for anything that might contradict what the cult was telling him, no surprise there!

For a proper assessment of Hubbard as an SF writer, see his entry in the Encyclopedia of Science Fiction.
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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby caroline » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:26 am

hartley wrote:To correct Bainbridge's confusion:
His second career consisted of a series of ...


I thought he never had a second career. :lol:
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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby skeptic2girl » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:10 am

Hartley, I checked out the Dave Langford essay: hilarious! I especially appreciated this gem:

"It could be cattily suggested that to some at least of his supporters, Hubbard's wonderfulness is such an article of faith that no other reaction is possible."

Thank you for posting these links, and

Caroline, thank you for taking the time to post all of this valuable information... not only here but in other threads (Babalon, et al). It's valuable, fascinating history.
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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby El Jefe' » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:22 am

Don't forget about The Man who was too Lazy to Fail from TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE where Heinlein talks about Lafe, The Man who was too lazy to fail!

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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby truthseeker » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:01 am

slightly off topic but heinlein's starship troopers,I saw the film but couldn't work out whether it was pro-war or anti-war?

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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby SchwimmelPuckel » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:18 pm

I posted about this topic on ESMB once, albeit a less 'serious' approach.

Thread on ESMB : Hubbard sightings in SF

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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby SchwimmelPuckel » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:25 pm

truthseeker wrote:slightly off topic but heinlein's starship troopers,I saw the film but couldn't work out whether it was pro-war or anti-war?
The movie is a complete mockery of the novel.. Total abysmal failure.. A travesty and a disgrace of Robart A Heinlein.

Heinlein commented once, on the view that 'Starship Troopers' is pro war.. He said that the novel is meant to examine 'why' men fight.. Or why wars?

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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby caroline » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:36 pm

Thanks everyone for the links and interesting comments about Heinlein's books and fictional characters. SchwimmelPuckel, thanks especially for the link to the ESMB thread.

Heinlein and his writer friends obviously found great humor in writing each other into their stories. Jack Williamson included a fictionalized Wilfred Smith, in Darker Than You Think. Anthony Boucher (William A. H. White) in Rocket to the Morgue, portrayed Jack Parsons as "Hugo Chantrelle", L. Ron Hubbard as "D. Vance Wimple", John W. Campbell as "Don Stewart", Robert Heinlein as "Austin Carter" and Jack Williamson as "Joe Henderson." (Ref. Sex and Rockets by John Carter.)

Carter included an image of the cover of the 1948 edition of Darker Than You Think and wrote in the caption that Parsons believed the book "presaged the appearance of Babalon."

On 13 December 1941, Heinlein wrote to the Bureau of Navigation requesting assignment to duty, emphasizing that he believed he would be most efficient in the billet of "public relations or propaganda" because of his success as a fiction writer, his "extensive political experience," and his experience "in practical public relations." (Ref. The Heinlein archives: ANNA201a-9.)

In a few letters in September 1941, Heinlein and John W. Campbell discussed ideas about introducing General Semantics through Heinlein's fiction. (The Heinlein archives: CORR218-2) I'll post something about this in the Hubbard and Korzybski thread.

Heinlein wrote to Campbell on 18 September 1941, saying he was certain he'd be called duty if the US had "trouble with Japan." He said that he turned down calls to be personnel officer of the Naval Training Station at San Diego, because he was "holding out for propaganda." (The Heinlein archives: CORR218-2)
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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby caroline » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:58 am

Heinlein lived in the Philadelphia area (Landsdowne, St. James Place and South Hicks Street) from May 1942 until the end of the war.
Heinlein archives: Personal History Statement, Navy Department 31 January 1951 (ANNA201a-8)

On 11 September 1944, The Commanding Officer U.S.S. Algol approved Hubbard to attend School of Military Government.
Navy record: http://www.lermanet.com/L_Ron_Hubbard/mr335.htm

On 27 January 1945, Hubbard completed the course in Military Government.
Navy record: http://www.lermanet.com/L_Ron_Hubbard/mr107.htm

On 5 February, 1945, Hubbard was granted leave until 13 February, 1945.
Navy record: http://www.lermanet.com/L_Ron_Hubbard/mr344.htm

On 14 February 1945, Hubbard arrived at the Presidio, Monterey, California.
Navy record: http://www.lermanet.com/L_Ron_Hubbard/mr347.htm

Miller noted an unusual incident involving Hubbard, one day before he left for Princeton:

From Bare-faced Messiah, Russell Miller wrote:For the first six months of 1944, Ron remained in Portland during the fitting out of the Algol. News of the war in the Pacific was of bitter fighting and heavy casualties. US Marines were working their way from island to island towards Japan, but at shocking cost. In the attack on Tarawa Atoll, more than a thousand Americans were killed and two thousand wounded: news pictures of the beaches littered with dead Marines shocked the nation and brought home the terrible reality of war. On 15 June, two divisions of US Marines began an assault on Saipan in the southern Marianas, and in the battle that followed 16,500 Americans were killed or wounded.

The USS Algol was commissioned in July and immediately put to sea for trials. Through August and most of September she was exercizing at sea; as Navigating Officer, Ron signed the ship's deck log every day, but there was little to report except 'under way, as before'. He seemed to have had second thoughts about wanting to see action, for on 9 September he applied for an appointment to the School of Military Government, citing among his qualifications his education as a civil engineer, membership in the Explorers Club, wide travel in the Far East and experience of handling natives. The Algol's Commanding Officer approved Ron's application, noting on his fitness report that while Lieutenant Hubbard was a capable and energetic officer, he was 'very temperamental and often has his feelings hurt'.

On 22 September, the Algol was at last ordered to Oakland, California, to start taking on supplies in preparation for sailing to war. The excited rumour among the crew was that the ship was to take part in a major new offensive in the Pacific aimed at the final defeat of the Japanese.

At 1630 on the afternoon of 27 September- the day before Ron was due to leave for Princeton - the ship's deck log recorded an unusual incident: 'The Navigating Officer reported to the OOD [Officer On Duty] that an attempt at sabatage [sic] had been made sometime between 1530-1600. A coke bottle filled with gasoline with a cloth wick inserted had been concealed among cargo which was to be hoisted aboard and stored in No 1 hold. It was discovered before being taken

_______________
13. Ron The Writer
14. Rocky Mountain News, 20 February 1983

108


on board. ONI, FBI and NSD authorities reported on the scene and investigations were started.'[15]

No further mention was made of the incident. There was no explanation of why Lieutenant Hubbard, the Navigating Officer, was poking around in cargo being loaded on to the ship or of how he had managed to find the 'petrol bomb'. Neither was the result of the investigations recorded. Shortly after ten o'clock that evening a brief signal was received 'Lt Lafayette Ron Hubbard, D-v (S), USNR 113392, is this date detached from duty.'

Miller, R. (1987). Bare-Faced Messiah The True Story of L. Ron Hubbard. London: Penguin Books Ltd.


In the Admissions, L. Ron Hubbard wrote: In 1942 – December 17th or thereabouts – while training in Miami, Florida, I met a girl named Ginger who excited me. She was a very loose person but pretended a great love for me. From her I received an infection of gonnohorea (sp?). I was terrified by it, the consequences of being discovered by my wife, the navy, my friends. I went to a private doctor who treated me with sulfa-thiazole and so forth. I thought I was cured but on a plane headed to Portland, Ore. I found I was not. I took to dosing myself with sulfa in such quantities that I was afraid I had affected my brain. My wife came to Portland. I took what precautions I could. I think actually that the disease was utterly cured very early. This fear further depressed my libido. My wife disliked the act anyway, I believe, even after she had a hysterectomy in 1938. (She was always terrified of childbirth but conceived despite all precautions seven times in five years resulting in five abortions and two children. I am quite fond of my children but my wife always tried to convince me that I hated them.)

I carried this fear of the disease to sea with me. I was reprimanded in San Diego in mid-43 for firing on the Mexican coast and was removed from command of my ship. This on top of having sunk two Jap subs without credit, the way my crew lied for me at the Court of Inquiry, the insults of the High Command, all combined to put me in the hospital with ulcers.

I returned to sea as navigator of a large ship and was subsequently selected for the Military Government School at Princeton whither I went in 1944-45 for three months. During my Princeton sojourn I was very tired and harrassed (sp?) and spent week-ends with a writer friend in Philadelphia. He almost forced me to sleep with his wife. Meanwhile I had a affair with a woman named Ferne. Somehow, perhaps because I had constantly wet feet and no sleep at Princeton, I contracted a staphloceus infection. I mistook it for gonnhorea and until I arrived at Monterey, believed my old illness had returned. I consulted a doctor there who reassured me. This affair again depressed my libido. The staphloceus infection has not entirely vanished, appearing as rheumatism which only small doses of stilbestrol will remove. The hormone further reduces my libido and I am nearly impotent.


From The Admissions of L. Ron Hubbard


William H. Patterson confirms Hubbard and Heinlein together in Philly:
Roninspoon wrote:Mr. Patterson revealed to me, "RAH and LRH had one or more discussions during 1944 and or 1945 when they were both in Philadelphia, and RAH pointed out to LRH that religions had an inordinate amount of legal latitude in the U.S. and that churches could engage in a great many activities otherwise thought of as secular, under the tax and other protection churches enjoy. He had already explored these ideas in some of his stories and was to revisit these notions in their original form in Stranger. It is possible that this conversation or series of conversations took place as late as December 1945 or early 1946 and in Los Angeles."

Roninspoon. (29 March, 2002). The Heinlein - Hubbard Myth. everything2.com. Retrieved 25 January 2011 from http://everything2.com/title/The+Heinlein+-+Hubbard+Wager+Myth

Note: William H. Patterson, Jr. wrote Robert A. Heinlein: In Dialogue with His Century: Volume 1 (1907-1948): Learning Curve (2010).

Although Asimov and de Camp are reported to have also been in Philadelphia during the war, they were not really writer friends of Hubbard, whereas Heinlein was.

Wikipedia wrote:Early work, 1939–1958

The first novel that Heinlein wrote, For Us, The Living: A Comedy of Customs (1939), did not see print during his lifetime, but Robert James later tracked down the manuscript and it was published in 2003. Widely regarded as a failure as a novel,[6] being little more than a disguised lecture on Heinlein's social theories, it is intriguing as a window into the development of Heinlein's radical ideas about man as a social animal, including his interest in free love. The root of many themes found in his later stories can be found in this book. It also contained much material that could be considered background for his other novels, including a detailed description of the protagonist's treatment to avoid being banned into Coventry (a place in the Heinlein mythos where unrepentant law-breakers are sent to experience actual anarchy).

It appears that Heinlein at least attempted to live in a manner consistent with these ideals, even in the 1930s, and had an open relationship in his marriage to his second wife, Leslyn.

Retrieved on 25 January 2011 from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein


Heinlein and Leslyn married in 1932 and divorced in 1947. (Ref. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein).

The Heinlein Society wrote:All the writing of this period (1945-1947) was produced under difficult and trying circumstances for Heinlein, because his personal life was going to hell. The relationship with Leslyn had disintegrated in alcoholism, beyond any possibility of repair. In 1947 he moved out [1] while Leslyn applied for a divorce.

Retrieved on 25 January 2011 from http://www.heinleinsociety.org/CentennialReader/robert.html.


[1] The Heinleins purchased the house at 8777 Lookout Mountain Avenue, Hollywood, 46, California in June, 1935. After the war ended, Heinlein returned to that address from Philadelphia. (Heinlein archives: Personal History Statement, Navy Dept. ANNA201a-8).
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.

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skeptic2girl
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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby skeptic2girl » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:20 am

Is it possible that Heinlein was being sarcastic when he said of Hubbard: "Ron had had a busy war - sunk four times and wounded again and again"?

Surely some veterans must take issue with his false history?
"The truth is out there."

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caroline
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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby caroline » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:55 am

In connection with his Princeton sojourn, Hubbard mentions that he had an "affair with a woman named Ferne."
From the Admissions, L. Ron Hubbard wrote:I returned to sea as navigator of a large ship and was subsequently selected for the Military Government School at Princeton whither I went in 1944-45 for three months. During my Princeton sojourn I was very tired and harrassed (sp?) and spent week-ends with a writer friend in Philadelphia. He almost forced me to sleep with his wife. Meanwhile I had a affair with a woman named Ferne. Somehow, perhaps because I had constantly wet feet and no sleep at Princeton, I contracted a staphloceus infection. I mistook it for gonnhorea and until I arrived at Monterey, believed my old illness had returned. I consulted a doctor there who reassured me. This affair again depressed my libido. The staphloceus infection has not entirely vanished, appearing as rheumatism which only small doses of stilbestrol will remove. The hormone further reduces my libido and I am nearly impotent.

The Admissions of L. Ron Hubbard


Heinlein's 1945 correspondence includes a handwritten letter dated "Wednesday," accompanied with an envelope postmarked 25 April 1945 from Comdr. C.B. Laning USN, Navy Department, Washington, D. C. The letter is on stationery reading NAVY DEPARTMENT -- OFFICE OF THE CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS -- WASHINGTON. "Cal" wrote he would be down to Philadelphia that Saturday, and hoped he could also have "a late date with Fern." Laning confessed how "fortified spiritually and physically" he'd felt when the combination of Heinlein, Leslyn and Fern had "turned" him "out" the previous weekend. (Heinlein archives: CORR305-1945).
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.

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caroline
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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby caroline » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:02 pm

As discussed earlier in this thread, Hubbard wrote about his affair with the wife of his "writer friend" in Princeton during WWII. Earlier too, I suggested that the writer and wife could have been Heinlein and Leslyn. William H. Patterson confirms this in Robert A. Heinlein In Dialogue with his Century (pp. 369-370).

Robert and Leslyn Heinlein met Hubbard in New York in the spring of 1940, at a dinner party at the apartment of John Arwine, friend and Annapolis classmate of Robert Heinlein. (Patterson, 2010). Lieut. (jg) Robert A. Heinlein, U.S. Navy retired, provided the Bureau of Navigation a temporary address (as of 18 May 1940) care of John Arwine, 9 West 32nd Street, New York City, New York. (Heinlein archives: ANNA201A-09) Hubbard had an apartment in New York at the time, (BFM chapter 5) and brought Vida Jameson as a date to the Heinleins' party. According to Heinlein, other party guests included John W. Campbell and his wife Dona, Sprague de Camp and his wife Catherine, and Willy Ley. (Heinlein archives: CORR220-3)

The source Patterson cites for the Hubbard-Leslyn affair is a "Virginia Heinlein, taped interview." Patterson apparently didn't ask Virginia where the affair occurred, or she didn't know. Consequently Patterson surmised that "the most likely time" and place were October 1945 in Murrieta, California. The Heinleins were staying at the Murietta Hot Springs Hotel while waiting for a tenant to vacate their house at 8777 Lookout Mountain Avenue, in Hollywood.

Hubbard, indeed, could have resumed his affair with Leslyn at that time. Hubbard is very clear in his Admissions, however, that the affair took place in Philadelphia, during the 3 months Hubbard was in Princeton. Since Hubbard is specific, Virginia Heinlein didn't specify, and Patterson speculates, it can be reasonably concluded that the affair was in Philadelphia.
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Commands: Part l “Tell me a lie”.

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Re: Hubbard and Heinlein

Postby Wieber » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:54 pm

SchwimmelPuckel wrote:
truthseeker wrote:slightly off topic but heinlein's starship troopers,I saw the film but couldn't work out whether it was pro-war or anti-war?
The movie is a complete mockery of the novel.. Total abysmal failure.. A travesty and a disgrace of Robart A Heinlein.

Heinlein commented once, on the view that 'Starship Troopers' is pro war.. He said that the novel is meant to examine 'why' men fight.. Or why wars?

:)


There are some cosmetic similarities between Robert A. Heinlein's book and Paul Verhoeven's movie. On first viewing of that movie I was disappointed that it didn't follow the book very closely. I watched it again on DVD and then watched it with Verhoeven's commentary. Looked at on it's own merits, in my opinion, the movie is a brilliant satirical work. It is definitely anti-war. It is also anti-totalitarian and anti-cult.

Verhoeven was born in Holland in 1938, which became occupied by Nazi Germany until he was seven and he put that experience into that movie. Heinlein came from a different place with different experiences.
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