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 Post subject: Re: Would you refer people to Marty's Independent Group (Cul
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:37 am 
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Hi Daisy, Hi ALL :wink:

Would I refer people to Marty's? Sure...I would, IF they wanted to do
the "Bridge", had been turned onto the critical web sites exposing any
and all abuses, and still wanted "the tech"---I see Marty, and or the
Freezone as a bridge OUT.

Many people leave--and leave it all, self included. Some people leave,
and still want to apply "the tech" to their lives. They're not
--- Breaking up families
--- Declaring people "SP"
--- Using "Fair Game"
--- Practicing Medical Abuse
--- Stopping free speech

Granted, Marty often won't post certain things, and that's the choice
of Free speech, also, as ticked off as that may make some people.
You can say he's stopping it---but he's also choosing
what the people he hangs with want, as I see it. He knows they have
the entire Web to lurk, learn and change their minds.

These are grown adults, choosing something they feel they get
"wins" with. I know---I understand people's concerns, I was "in"
Scientology for many, many years before things went sour.

Can the "tech" harm people? My opinion is the lower bridge stuff is fairly
harmless, almost like "talk therapy". Where it gets VERY bad is from OT 3 on up----
often the worst cases were OT 5-OT 8. Those no, I wouldn't refer to anyone.
Do people still do it? Yes, they do. Many insist they're having big wins...and this
battle shall go on and on, for a long time, as it has--in other forms, forever.

Was it ALL bad? No, frankly it was not. I understand many people
who never did it are *sure* it IS all bad. That's their view of it.

Is it? Well, I think it's up to the individual to decide. My view is learn both sides.
There are now enough stories on the Net that one *can* get educated on both sides.

I can tell you, as I have for 11 years now, that NO ONE Calling me names,
such as a "Coward", ever-----ever----helped me. Never. People yelled *lots*
of ~facts~to me, for quite some time. *None* of that sunk in. What did sink
in and what changed my life completely, were people willing to offer a hand,
to be kind, to listen, and having the strength to stay in communication with me,
despite TONS of people literally screaming they should not.


Life rolls on. And hopefully, more people (not less) WILL
READ
Look
Listen
LOOK AT BOTH SIDES
And make up their *own* minds.

Meantime: Have a nice Day!

Tory/Magoo :alien:


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 Post subject: Re: Would you refer people to Marty's Independent Group (Cul
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:25 am 
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With Marty's auditing credentials coming into question (see Jesse's blob) I most CERTAINLY would not refer anyone except law enforcement to him!


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 Post subject: Re: Would you refer people to Marty's Independent Group (Cul
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:24 pm 
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Magoo 1 said:

Quote:
Would I refer people to Marty's? Sure...I would, IF they wanted to do
the "Bridge", had been turned onto the critical web sites exposing any
and all abuses, and still wanted "the tech"---I see Marty, and or the
Freezone as a bridge OUT.


What if they haven't been "turned onto" the critical web sites? And how would you know?

Of course, I agree they are adults and can choose to continue with the scientology teachings. How could I tell someone they cannot do so. What I recommend to a person newly out is to take some time to themselves. Why? Because you need to step away from the constant indoctrination in order to break free from all the programming. That is why scientology does not want you to have "other fish to fry" and they demand that a person sign up immediately for a course or more auditing after completing something. There is a reason for this. Keep the programming intact.

Quote:
Can the "tech" harm people? My opinion is the lower bridge stuff is fairly
harmless, almost like "talk therapy". Where it gets VERY bad is from OT 3 on up----
often the worst cases were OT 5-OT 8.


Well, this is where we disagree completely. I believe all of the teachings are harmful to a person. I believe hubbard set it up this way. I don't think hubbard started with the comm course and grades, all the time thinking to himself he just wanted to help people. And then when he got to the OT levels thought to himself, gee now I think I will really f*** with people's mind. I believe scientology is meant to control from the very beginning. And if Marty's is doing scientology then he is applying what hubbard thought up.

Quote:
Is it? Well, I think it's up to the individual to decide. My view is learn both sides.
There are now enough stories on the Net that one *can* get educated on both sides.


Absolutely, it is up to the individual. And I would also recommend people learn both sides. How do we know how many people in Marty's cult have really looked. It is hard for me to believe they have done any real research. Why would they? Would you agree that maybe they are afraid to look? After all those years, money and time. Afraid to find out they were wrong? It is hard for people to make up their own minds when they are still having someone (Marty) tell them what to think.

I am grateful that I got out before Marty. Otherwise I would have easily been drawn to him. Took me 6 months to realize I was conned. I have a lot of compassion for Marty's followers, I wish they could see for themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you refer people to Marty's Independent Group (Cul
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:15 pm 
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subrose wrote:
Quote:
Well, this is where we disagree completely. I believe all of the teachings are harmful to a person. I believe hubbard set it up this way. I don't think hubbard started with the comm course and grades, all the time thinking to himself he just wanted to help people. And then when he got to the OT levels thought to himself, gee now I think I will really f*** with people's mind. I believe scientology is meant to control from the very beginning. And if Marty's is doing scientology then he is applying what hubbard thought up.

If you look at scientology as a whole system and do not break it down into it's parts, then yes, it is harmful as a whole. But once one is freed of the system (as a whole) they now have a choice to use the parts that they like. Do you think that each piece by itself is harmful? What about all of the parts that LRon took from other philosophies? Are they all harmful too? I'll give you an example. "Granting beingness" is actually a very old eastern practice originally called "unconditional positive regard". Are you saying that to practice granting beingness towards another person is harmful? There are many examples like this in scientology. When I bring up this argument, people say "but those things are not really scientology because LRon didn't invent them". That's like saying Lutheranism is not Christianity because it is not the original Orthodox Christian Church and Luther did not invent Christianity. These people (scientologists) were introduced to these ideas through scientology and might always see them as scientology. Not everyone cares to look into the origins of every idea they chose to adopt.

I'm with Tory. Live and let live. Draw a line at the abusive practices, but otherwise allow people their freedom of mind (free will) to think and adopt the ideas they choose. This is how we keep "group think" out of the critic's movement. You are free to believe that every bit of scientology is bad, each and every part of it is harmful. The problem is, polarizing group thinkers gnarl and gnash and insist that if a critic does not adopt this view, then they cannot be a "real" critic, and they attempt to "oust" them from the "group" of critics. Bah. Let these types go and start their own cult, without me.

I've seen evidence that Marty and gang allow for the harmful parts of scientology to be dropped, such as keeping the OT level info secret. None of those people who spent time in the RPF will want to go back to it. If they choose to have an RPF they will make substantive changes to it, like it has to be truly voluntary and one can leave any time if one chooses. They it see it like a boot camp and in the secular world, many people choose boot camp style training as a way to learn discipline or whatever.

Mafiawog's "wait and see" attitude is wise. I'm with that too. Meanwhile, I haven "referred" anyone there and I don't plan to either. And btw, not every ex-scientologist thinks Marty is someone to go to. For every ex kissing Marty's butt on his blog, there are 100 exes NOT involved with Marty. I laugh at people who are freaked out about him. Marty is nothing more than a person of interest in the bigger scheme of things. He's a useful tool for Karma, that's all. Those who screech about him are alarmist, uninformed and lack any semblance of perspective.

_________________
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt


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 Post subject: Re: Would you refer people to Marty's Independent Group (Cul
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:52 pm 
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I would never refer anybody to Marty for auditing or help of any kind. Just look at his own description of his supposed "training". He admits he was alone in a courseroom on the ship and natters like crazy about his trainers and supervision, and admits he did not do any Internship. He did it all on his own. He also brags that he C/Ses, FESes, Crams and audits all his own "cases".

Somehow this whole rant of Marty's reminds me of L. Ron Hubbard in KSW#1 (Kepping Scientology Working Series #1):

http://www.xenu-directory.net/practices/ksw1.html

http://carolineletkeman.org/sp/index.ph ... 8&Itemid=9

L. Ron Hubbard wrote:
We will not speculate here on why this was so or how I came to rise above
the bank. We are dealing only in facts and the above is a fact -- the group
left to its own devices would not have evolved Scientology but with wild
dramatization of the bank called "new ideas" would have wiped it out.



https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/ ... -the-wall/
Marty wrote:
My point in all this is simply this: The Church of Scientology under Miscavige has created a priesthood of Reverse Dianeticists. The only way I escaped it was the circumstances of not being junior to it during my own training. It was me and LRH with no vias or interruptions. I had no sup, I had no Qual, the only people assigned to “handle” my training got in the road of it.


The above is just a short quote from Marty's bragging rant about how he and he alone came to rise above all the other LRH trained and/or Class XIIs. I highly suggest reading the whole thing to get the true extent of Marty's message: https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/ ... -the-wall/

Marty apparently thinks he is channelling LRH. Anybody remember Elron Elray and Captain Bill? L. Ron Hubbard is not a person to emulate IMO.

_________________
"There is nothing as wild in the books of Man as will probably happen here on Earth...it will happen and be allowed to happen simply because all this is so incredible that nobody will even think of stopping it until it is far, far too late"~LRH


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 Post subject: Re: Would you refer people to Marty's Independent Group (Cul
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:52 pm 
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So then,

people who want to remain scientologists and get "standard tech"...

won't find it in CoS,

won't find it at Marty's,

won't find it in the Freezone,

oh dear, what are they to do?

perhaps this will lead them to question whether "standard tech" is "real" or an ideal that is attainable, or even something worth attaining. If no one can actually be trusted to produce it, then something is awfully wrong. :!:

_________________
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
― Hannah Arendt


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 Post subject: Re: Would you refer people to Marty's Independent Group (Cul
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:18 pm 
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Good questions Dorothy. That reminds me: Which version of "Standard Tech" was Marty studying all by his lonesome there out on the ship? I guess that depends on which re-re-re-re-revised version of the "tech" volumes were available on that asbestos infested rust bucket.

LRH changed the 'tech" everytime enough people figured out it didn't work. DM has continued doing the same thing. Every time enough people stop paying they come out with a new version that blames someone else and explains why it didn't work before.

_________________
"There is nothing as wild in the books of Man as will probably happen here on Earth...it will happen and be allowed to happen simply because all this is so incredible that nobody will even think of stopping it until it is far, far too late"~LRH


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 Post subject: Re: Would you refer people to Marty's Independent Group (Cul
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:22 am 
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The real danger in the standard tech is not that it doesn't work, but that it does. Specially in the hands of an expert auditor like Marty it can be used to manipulate and even break people mentally.

Not every scientologist nor everything in scientology is evil. Some pieces of the tech can be used for good as well. But thanks to the likes of LRH and DM, the good things got overwhelmed by the evil scheme they were part of. And lets not forget that the good things scientology has to offer are stolen from other philosophies, like Buddhism.

If you really want to salvage something, take out those rare valuable pieces, store them away safely and then tear the "building" called scientology down. No matter who leads it; the names "scientology", "dianetics", LRH, auditing and "standard tech" are contaminated by evil associations. Specially everything from OT III and up.
Maybe someone can salvage the rare gems in the mudpile, but it has to be done under a totally different name, by people who have now, and never in the past, anything to do with LRH and/or current management. This includes Marty Rathburn and his Indie elite. These people all have, some more than others, dirt on their hands. And they still don't come clean on what happened under Hubbard's direct orders, way before the Miscavige era started.

The greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics? IMHO? Put an end to the monster scientology has become.
HERE WE GO!!

GET RID OF:
- the space opera
-the satanic references
-the obvious megalomania of Ron
-the lies (I mean "acceptable truth's)
-the brainwashing
-the money-scams
-the bad medicine
-the forced sale of overpriced vitamins
-the crazy Fifties ideas about homosexuality and the role of females
-the idea victims are guilty of their fate (pulling it in)
-LRon's cures for radiation, cancer, and mental health issues
-his racism
-his megalomania
-his pro-smoking stance
-the ridiculous anti-drugs stance at the same time
-the whole body thetan crap
-drop all the E-meters in the ocean
-sell the big buildings and donate the proceeds to the victims or their next of kin
-send the perps to jail
-start paying long overdue taxes
-close every Narconon facility worldwide
-prohibit Introspection- and Purification Rundown's
-abolish the OT levels and the "Bridge to total Freedom".
-abolish Keep Scientology working
-abolish the Sea Org billion year contracts
-abolish OSA, Fair Game, SP, PTS and disconnection
-abolish coercing abortion under female Sea Org members
-abolish "Entheta", let people be free to read and make up their own mind
-Close the RPF in every way, shape or form
-Fire the current Board of Directors
-Start working together with the mental health-and medical profession and with Law Enforcement.

Quite a list, isn't it? :? It would be so much easier to just forget the whole thing and join a circle of Bhuddists or some Native American spirituality group. And meanwhile let the real mental health scientists take a serious look at the things in the tech that do seem to work. In a way Hubs was on to something, but it needs to be researched.
By real scientists. Not by quacks like M&M or The Evil Midget Hisself!

But that's just me speaking. :mrgreen: And what do I know?

_________________
"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Sir Karl Popper (1902 - 1994)


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 Post subject: Re: Would you refer people to Marty's Independent Group (Cul
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:26 am 
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Great list. I would add:

- test what's left after you've done the above using standards consistent with other mental health research

I personally don't think there is going to be anything left after that but if there is one grain in there that advances human knowledge then great.


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 Post subject: Re: Marty the addict
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:03 am 
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AngryGayPope wrote:
Marty is on methadone!


Marty is methadone !!!


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 Post subject: Re: Would you refer people to Marty's Independent Group (Cul
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:57 am 
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To me I really don't "refer people" to anyone. I never have.
I guess what I meant is IF someone wanted out, and wanted to be with others
who are out--and wanted to still do "the tech"....I'd tell them about various
sites. One of them is Marty's....although so far, I've never pitched *a* person
or FZ area.

My usual deal is to tell people to take time to Heal their lives. There's a great book
called "You Can Heal Your Life" by Louise Hay...and I *always* recommend people
start with that. Also, learn what happened to them with "Captive Hearts, Captive Minds".

AND

Cruise around the Net and meet X' Scios. Get educated, learn, look, read, study up...
FIND OUT ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the things you were lied to about, and ALLLLLLLLLLLL
the great things that have *nothing* to do with $cientology.

Begin your new life! That's the best, imnsho.

:alien:

Tory/Magoo


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 Post subject: Re: Would you refer people to Marty's Independent Group (Cul
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:34 pm 
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Tory,
I like your advice to "cruise" around the internet...I am sure no TC pun was intended but it made me laugh. I think if people did take that cruise, they would see the lies that they swallowed and the others that were crammed down their throats and run far away from the fz or marty. These others may Reg less, charge less, and be less caustic at this point, but they follow the lies of eLwRONG and are believers in the lie, so in the end, the search for freedom one would remain a soul held captive by the intergalactic liar. DM=LRH=Marty=anybody else selling this crap


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