^^^That was how I felt about this. I'm kind of reluctant when it comes to hurting Karen's feelings. I know she means well, she's a warm and loving person and it must be very difficult for her to adjust to life outside scientology. She even managed to keep her sense of humor after all those years in. I admire that.

I don't agree with her on several points, but tend to avoid the discussion on subjective things like beliefs. But this one.... Just to many things that are plainly and factually wrong. If we all keep protecting Karen from the critique we do give to other posters, we're not doing her a favor.

She is not a little child, but an intelligent woman who had a hard time, like all the exes who were in the cult for a very long period. She needs time to adjust, like all who gave the greatest part of their life to the cult.
I would never intentionally be rude or mean to her, just to hurt her feelings or to get the last word. But it is, IMO, kind of condescending to act as if we all have to keep treating Karen with silken gloves because she can't cope with reality. Sure she can.

She's proven to be strong enough to leave the church behind in spite of all the handling and harassing. If she could make it through that, I'm sure she can handle some factual criticism just as well as any other person.

In real life one has to deal with different opinions every now and then. That goes for me and you, but it goes for Karen too. To treat her differently because of who she was in the church is a form of discriminating. We know what she went through, we can try to keep an open eye on that, but we don't do her any favor by treating her like she's about to break into pieces when confronted with opposite views.

There is no need to ridicule Karen or attack her continued belief in the Tech, but she's woman enough to handle some critical evaluation of facts. She's a strong person in a period of transition who needs support. She's not a little child that should be protected from any negative emotional upheaval.

Being an equal partner in a lively debate will be much more helpful to Karen in the long run than being screened off from anything that could upset and enturbulate her, like she was while still in the church.
At least, that's my personal opinion on the matter. But I'm open to a free and lively discussion.

Maybe Karen would find interest in Helen O'Brien's book titled Dianetics in Limbo-A Documentary About Immortality written in 1966
http://www.xenu.net/archive/books/dil/D ... _Limbo.txt

For those that don't know Helen O'Brien, she was a major participant in Dianetics in its earliest years

Re: the numbers.
There is one possible "explanation" of the numbers which appear much over-inflated.
Please excuse any credibility-strain.
(Only Karen would be able to tell us if this was the case.)

There was a period in Standard Dianetics (R3R) were PCs were actually giving so-called "whole track" drug use on their drug lists. eg: a guy might never have taken Opium this lifetime and yet would list it as a drug he'd taken in "earlier lifetimes" XXX number of times. He only used Heroin twice this lifetime but is sure he used it 100s of times on the Whole Track etc.

I'm not sure how that would extrapolate across to specific 20th Century drugs such as LSD or Ecstasy etc. but you know how it is with drug stories, the truth is often "outta-sight, man".

BTW, Karen appears to have forgotten about the LSD Sweat-Out Program which had a lot of us running many miles in plastic suits for months on end as the actual precursor to the Purification Rundown.

Of course people change on the Purification Rundown. You get a ton of exercise, you eat better, take vitamins, spend lots of time in a sauna. You spend so many hours doing this, that you have to take time off work, so the stress of your job fades to the background for awhile. So yes, people feel positive changes when they do the purification rundown. For many it is the first time they have done healthy activities in many years. But they could go to a health spa for a month and get the same benefits of the Purification Rundown, but without the dangerously high levels of items from a health food store (calcium magnesium, niacin, etc) that you are forced to consume on this rundown.

My issue is not with the purification rundown, mainly because I have never had any personal experience with it. I left, i.e., was away from scientology when it came into use and when I went back (damn it, I went back!) I didn't stay long enough to do it.

My issue is with Karen's seemingly gushy apotheosis of L. Ron Hubbard. She's free to have that opinion but according to the material on cults, a specific example of which is Captive Hearts Captive Minds by Lalich and Tobias, a person leaving such an organization cannot fully recover from what was done to them while they maintain a high opinion of the cult leader.

I take the point of her story on the beginning of the purification rundown to be that L. Ron Hubbard was a fully benign and completely caring selfless individual and it is couched in such a way that I am supposed to agree with that. I don't agree with that.

From my experience and from the material I have read to help me recover from having been in scientology I have come to the conclusion where it is my opinion that L. Ron Hubbard was a psychopath. I'm not going to expand on that but I will reference the books that led me to that conclusion. Karen should feel free to gainsay my opinion but I would appreciate it if she would at least read the material on which I have based my opinion first.

1. Babiak, P., & Hare, R. D. (2007). Snakes in suits: When psychopaths go to work. New York: Collins.

2. Hare, R. D. (1999). Without conscience: The disturbing world of the psychopaths among us. New York: Guilford Press.

3. Hassan, S. (1990). Combatting cult mind control. Rochester, Vt: Park Street Press.

4. Miller, R. (1987). Bare-faced messiah: The true story of L. Ron Hubbard. London: Joseph.

5. Stout, M. (2006). The sociopath next door. New York: Broadway.

6. Tobias, M. L., & Lalich, J. (1994). Captive hearts, captive minds: Freedom and recovery from cults and abusive relationships. Alameda, CA: Hunter House.

She won't. That material is entheta.

We can't really blame Karen. She posted the OP on Marty's blog, not expecting a critical audience. And they feel that Hubs was the greatest humanitarian EVVAH! Some squirrely SP happened to post it here.... Wether it was OSA or DM himself? Marty's not quite sure about that yet.

No. Not nice. I promised not to make fun of Karen's belief-system.

Like Sekh says, Karen isn't expecting you/us to agree with it. She was (rightly) expecting most of the people who comment on Marty's blog to find the story very 'theta', or whatever the term is. She didn't post it here. I did that (and probably shouldn't have).

Don't blame yourself. Karen knows that others read Marty's blog as well. Once something is on the internet, there is no more expectation of privacy to be had.
And it's a good thing we've seen this story. It's a fine example of the way elRon is still sanctified in those circles. The total lack of critical thinking is quite disturbing.

I agree that the "Church of Scientology" has mis-used the Purification Rundown to suck VICTIMS into it's vampire money sucking Reg Machine.
For example, Tom Cruise misled New York City Firefighters and police officers into thinking they were getting only a detox
when in fact he was really using the Purif to get free PR for himself, his CULT, and to recruit those heroic men and women into the CULT.

I am unapologetic about my personal beliefs as an Independent Scientologist.
OCMB has wanted Scientologists to post here for many years.
So here I am.
I would like to thank the graciousness of those who have been more than kind and tolerant of my views.

My friends are those who want to end the ABUSE within the CULT. More specifically, to end the Drachonian punishments within the RPF, INT Base lockdowns, standard daily abuse within the Sea Organization.

The abuse also includes vampire regging $$$$ bankrupting public to suck out the $$$, disconnection from own spouses and children and the medieval tortures of Isolation and running around poles for punishment while eating Oliver Twist slop for meals. Slave Labor of 80 to 100 hour weeks on a pittance ~~ Human Trafficking.
This board is a plethora of information on "Church" abuse, hence it is a group I contribute to here and there.

I welcome and friend anyone who seeks the end of Taliban Scientology.
The power of OCMB hit home to me when I responded to the thread about my ex-husband Heber.
To my amazement, a number of Lurkers connected with me on Facebook with all kinds of
Emails, support and updates of the current scene.
I had no idea Clambake has such readership.
When the posts on this board expose the CULT or what goes in within it helps fence sitters get more enlightened as these injustices and misconduct abound under the cloak of "Religion" and "Ministerial Exception" which somewhat slowdowns Law Enforcement (until things will REALLY come to a head)

I respect your right to critique all aspects of the "Church" and the "Tech"
Can you respect my rights to my spiritual beliefs ?
I will not engage in debates about my personal and religious beliefs and my personal experiences with LRH.
I am not here to debate, but to share a common goal.

For me, this makes you unique and you deserve kudos



Yes, as long as they don't call into question my right to live my life as a fellow human being.

Thanks for your post, Karen.

We do indeed want all types of opinions here.

It can get a little rough sometimes, but as long as people don't make it personal, I think it's all good.

Thanks again for having a good attitude.

Thank you, Karen.

Yes

I think it's safe to say that most of the people that make up the community of the Bake do not agree with everyone here on everything. Often disagreement about different things here can be extremely wide and extremely polarized. I think one thing that is fairly common here is that we at least try to be civil most of the time.

As to respecting your beliefs, although I cannot speak for everyone, I think that's a given. To paraphrase Steven Hassan, it is not belief but behavior that defines an organization as a cult. Yet, even that point may be, and has been, debated here.

Also, thank you for responding, Karen! I appreciate you being part of the community here -- it takes courage to post in a place where a lot of people are bound to disagree with you... it's so much easier to chime in when one is "preaching to the choir."

I respect YOU.