So I need to ask you is it not within Gerry & Caroline's right to err on the side of caution in considering Marty's group? Or should they be forced to accept them only because they are also victims of miscavige's application of the SP doctrine!
Of course Caroline and Gerry should not be "forced" to do anything. Is someone forcing them to do something? If it's their group then they are in charge, same as Marty is in charge of his blog. According to Marty, he is not a "victim" of anything
so I doubt he would ever want to join SPDL.
That may be true but what is Marty striving to achieve (or at least telling those who he wants as clients whether freshly out or still in the church). Without any clarification one only has the example of his past. I'm not advocating doing anything, just trying to state that I don't trust him either and until he proves himself (i.e. clarification, better disclosure of truth, acknowledgment of his own victims like Gerry & Caroline) this wont change. From what I seen of how he conducts himself so far I'm not waiting for it either.
What Marty is doing, behind the scenes I dk. What I see him doing is 1) Field auditing, 2) administering a blog for himself and other like minded people to discuss and air grievances about scino-corp, and 3) dodging a lot of incoming fair gaming
from scino-corp. Do you see him doing anything else?
A while back I pointed out the problem with MR's affidavit in the Headley case. I wrote that (imo) it was not helpful to the Headley's and possibly damaging in that it focused the case on "religion" and scientology's internal religious conflicts. I don't think MR intended to sabotage their case, I think he believed he was helping. But his affidavit had hubris written all over it. He makes a mistake by continuing to argue that DM is "squirreling" scientology. These people do not even realize that they subscribe to a belief system. They think it is an "exact science". LOL. It's like Christians arguing over which form of Christianity is the "correct" one. If I argue a point it is not political or because I like this person or don't like that person. I argue the same point now. Keep their ideology out of this fight. I believe doing so is a FAIL strategy. Some critics get upset when other critics compare scientology to other religions, because they think we are acknowledging that it is a religion, but that is not true. It is not about opinion, it is about perspective-taking and what strategy will actually send the spear into the dragon's soft underbelly. What is scientology's soft underbelly? I believe it is the fact that they continuously break the law and violate human rights. Does their ideology directly instruct them to do so? Are there LRon instructions that say "break up families for political and control reasons", "hold people against their will", "force young Sea Org women to have abortions", "extort every penny and cause parishioners financial ruin". No. The only piece of scientology ideology that is directly damning, is the Fair Game policy because it does directly instruct them to break the law. Policy which they claim to have cancelled, but their policy clearly states that it is only cancelled as an "official policy" and the action of fair gaming people may continue. Arguing that R2-45 orders scientologists to shoot people or that they plan to commit genocide of people below 2.0 on the tone scale, only presents a debatable argument and is useless other than perhaps to raise awareness about the mental condition of scientology's Founder. Then we are back at square zero, debating "scientology ideology" again.
If you want to educate people on what SP doctrine is, what it means, and how it often harms people when carried out, that's fine. I think Caroline does an incredible job of that. But to say Indies must renounce it 100% in order for us to trust them or include them within the umbrella of people critical of the church of scientology is a mistake imo. It is forcing a line to be drawn in the sand, excludes valuable assets in this fight and separates critics. C & G can do that personally if they want to. But if they want to bring that as any kind of strategy to the overall fight against scientology abuse, I will continue to debate that until someone convinces me that it makes for a viable strategy.
Yes that certainly is your opinion because I haven't seen anybody on this board take a "the sky is falling" attitude about Marty. Not even Gumby who only thinks that J. Swift has changed for the worse for his contact with Marty. I don't subscribe to this, I may be mystified by J. Swift's level of support of Marty but that is Swift's right and I still respect & like him. I know Marty serves a purpose even if he does hold his cards too close for others comfort and LOGICALLY causes distrust of his ultimate goals.
So you are saying that hubbard allowed for variation in the use of his "tech" and doctrines built to support it? Ok cool, new to me from what I had read on this forum & others (including archives of documents not just posts).
No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is this: a squirrel is an auditor who alters the tech when applying it to himself and others. He changes and invents auditing processes not approved by LRon. That has nothing to do with
the scientology administrative machine that spits out gold paper for the purposes of control, to enforce compliance or otherwise shut people up. Marty has no such machine and I do not think he ever will. But if I see him marching towards any such endeavor, he will instantly become my enemy.
That's true but since they want to turn back the clock to before miscavige (and have enough people to remember it i.e. Karen) it is only logical to consider that's what they would create given the chance or at least to whatever level they can build their group into (if anything at all)
Again there is a huge lack of perspective on this subject. Were you immersed in scientology 35 years ago, prior to the establishment of the suppressive Sea Organization? Are you really able to compare what scientology was like 35 years ago versus what it is like today? Just because there are stories of LRon locking children in chain lockers aboard the Apollo does not mean that there is no difference in how the general populace practiced scientology then and now. Hard core believers will question whether the chain locker story is true. The difference is they are now exposed to this kind of information. And I believe that that exposure alone will affect the way they carry on their business as scientologists who are now independent of an organization that has become VERY VERY suppressive.
Yes but once again this isn't what was being argued. What is being argued by someone like Swift is that critics as a whole should accept Marty and his group at face value despite that Marty shows no inclination towards any change other than eradicating miscavige and how he has run the "church"! Even though we know that the problems started with hubbard, Marty and his indies do not believe that. Yes critics, anons, Marty's group, and others want the "church" dismantled from it's present form but I don't see us agreeing to what level Marty figures that entails and that is the problem.
I can't comment on this because I am not arguing on Swift's behalf, only my own. I do not see Swift as some huge Marty supporter other than he cheerily eggs Marty on in his fight against Miscavige, and I do not see the crime in that.
No I don't think it is an exact science and I never have, it seemed from what I've read though that hubbard seemed to have pretty clear instructions how it should be practiced and that miscavige has only adjusted things to his desires and that is what Many's indies, freezoners and the other groups argue of the church at present.
Only believers see "clear instructions" from LRon. All the self contradictions, illogic, bad writing, poor grammar, incongruent concepts, disjointed paragraphs, pompous unsubstantiated claims, fake research, etc., only become clear when one gets exterior to it all and is willing to put it under a microscope. Until then they believe "it all adds up" and they do not allow any other thought to come to mind. You become an expert at suppressing your own cognitive dissonance. Are they really applying LRon's instructions precisely? Or are they simply living their own illusion?
But regardless of that, one can still believe in their own self and their own ability to apply LRon in an appropriate and helpful manner, especially when they are out from under the thumb of a cult. Marty's group, as-is, right now, is not necessarily a cult by definition. Yes it has the potential to become one. That's why we're watching.
We both agree we don't trust Marty. You may want to give him the benefit of doubt as to where he will take things and that is fine. I on the other hand will err to the side of caution and consider him suspect until proved otherwise since he wants to be hubbard intended scientology, remain tight lipped on what that means, and puts on pretty big blinders to unpleasant truth's presented to him.
As if he is capable of really knowing what "hubbard intended scientology" really is? LOL. Okay, I understand what you want from him. Personally he is not capable of this imo. It requires that he pay attention to critics' concerns and take the time to alleviate them, when maybe he could care less. Personally I think it is a huge mistake on his part, but then his awareness of things outside of his own rightness is low. The fight he is fighting with Miscavige is too big and too important for him to take on a whole other issue like that, and besides, if he aligns himself with critics of scientology IN ANY WAY, scino-corp will use that to help make him look like the enemy of the very people he wants to "rescue" from them. All they have against him right now is "squirreling". LOL!
Anyway, I'm happy to have discussed all this with you RWT, thank you.