“How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

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Wieber
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“How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by Wieber » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:44 am

In a recent installment of Tony Ortega's Underground Bunker, Ortega asked this question.

"Maybe the number one question we get on social media about Scientology is one that irritates former church members no end: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?” Well, as annoying as that question may be, when we look at lectures like this by Hubbard, we can’t help wondering that ourselves."

I have one answer. There may be other takes on it. This is mine.

It starts with claims and promises. Early in Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, there is a description of the abilities and personal benefits a person will achieve when they attain the state of clear. Reading that description it appears to be too good to be true. (Hubbard doesn't say that at the time no one had achieved such a state but that's another topic.) When a Scientologist contacts a non-Scientologist (raw meat) with the intent of selling them a book or service, they often ask the question, "What's ruining your life?" If they don't ask that directly, they fish around to find something the prospect wants to fix or change in their life. Like the proverbial snake oil elixir, Scientology cures and fixes everything. Once the thing the person wishes to fix, change or improve is revealed the Scientology seller says, "Scientology can handle that."

Though the promises are out there and seem improbable the introductory services are priced low enough that many people conclude that the low price and the short amount of time they will spend is worth the risk. They usually purchase a communication course or some other introductory service.

What they are not told, and what most Scientology staff members and practitioners don't know, is that the result the prospect will get on the introductory service is a euphoric suggestible hypnotic trance state. The training routines (TRs) and Dianetic auditing induce that state. That trance state feels really good. I know that because I've been in it. In the trance state the person feels very powerful as well. This is reinforced by the people involved in Scientology who are present. They love bomb the person with complements and evaluations of how good they are. They also reinforce any positive comments the person may say about how they feel they have improved.

Although none of the promises made to the person have been achieved the hypnotic trance state they are in makes them feel that what they have been told that Scientology can achieve is all true. At that point they have become true believers. While they are in their hypnotic trance state they can easily be sold on other things - buying more services, buying more books, joining staff, etc. If Scientology can manage to keep them in continual communication with the organization, which is easy to do at that early stage, the trance state can be channeled and reinforced to make the person dedicated, obedient and compliant.

That's how anyone can fall for this stuff.

In the Scientology technology Hubbard is adamant that an auditor is not to evaluate for a person being audited, nor are they to invalidate a person being audited. This does not apply to a person practicing Scientology when they are not in an auditing session. In every other circumstance within Scientology Hubbard directs staff members and other practitioners to evaluate and invalidate others strongly and continuously.

The induction of a euphoric suggestible hypnotic trance state is not unique to Scientology. I believe this is a key action with newly contacted people in every cult. Scientology's method of inducing the trance state may be fairly unique to Scientology but there are many different ways to achieve such a state. You may have seen people falling down in evangelical meetings. What you have seen is those people going into the trance state. I don't know what terrorist cults such as ISIS do to bring on such a trance state but I will wager that they have a method of inducing it. Having achieved such a trance state the new person enters the trap. It's not an easy trap to escape, but that is also another topic.
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

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Chris Shugart
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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by Chris Shugart » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:04 am

Let's not kid ourselves. We all fall for stuff we're convinced is the happening real deal. It's just that we believe our own crap and mock the crap that others believe. If you put a supporter of Trump, one for Hillary, and one for Bernie in a small room, they'd all be looking at each other convinced that the others are out of their ever loving minds. Getting locked into any ideology is how smart people fall for bad ideas.
Formerly Murray Luther
Publisher of Former Scientologist Magazine
http://www.formerscientologistmagazine.com/

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AngryGayPope
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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by AngryGayPope » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:56 pm

More specifically, how do they all believe in OT powers when those have never been demonstrated? Sci's have no response when I ask them, on hwd blvd, to use their OT powers to make me go away.

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'Alert'
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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by 'Alert' » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:50 am

I just love this question these days.

"Proof", "truth" per 'standard technology' is so subjective, its beyond humorous.

To start with LRH's words itself from 'source'....
"When we talk about truth, then, we are talking about something which is just relative to a problem or relative to another truth or relative to another fact within the limits of workability. How workable is it? Well, it has to be as true as it's workable. And that works the other way around. You say, "How true do you want a datum?"

You want it true enough to be workable. Now, you can say, "I want this real true, good and true, very true..."

You see, "true" is exact; you're not supposed to be able to do that in the English language. When you say "true," you mean an absolute. Absolutes are unobtainable.

All right, we'll say a real truth. Well, that would be a truth which would fit into the reference of your problem, somewhat on the order of "This truth is workable to the degree that every time I work it, it works the same way. I use this truth to solve this problem, and every time I use this truth it works the same way. The result is within the reasonable limit of
its application to this problem."

"Perception of Truth" Lecture
Logics 7--9 & 10--23
12 November 1952


Basically, the above outlines that 'truth' is only relevant to a specific datum being put forth. If said 'datum' is bullshit, then bullshit can become 'truth' in scientology. Take what happened to Paulette Cooper for example. The party line was that scientology did nothing wrong, Whereas years later, it was found that 'truth' in scientology is a fabrication of whatever is needed to bury real truth?facts
Handling truth is a touchy business also. You don't have to tell everything you know — that would jam the comm line too. Tell an acceptable truth. … So PR becomes the technique of communicating an acceptable truth — and which will attain the desirable result.

HCOPL 13 August 1970
Issue II
PR Series 2
The problem with being a narcissist is, you cannot see what others see. Scientology enhances the narcissistic tendencies we are all born with(Google Egocentrism!) into a point where a barrier becomes so strong, it can take decades to break down.



Hubbard was so clever in his creations, he wrote that "proof" is an early level of aberration.

"Anybody would know anything that was going on if he didn't have to prove it. Proof, conviction, is itself a very early level of aberration.

As soon as you have to start proving things and convincing people of things, why then you have to get into agreement with them and in order to do this -- you have to Alter-is. You have to have something persist long enough for them to see it, so that they can then understand what it is. So in order for them to really understand what it is you can't possibly put up something that they understand what is, because if they saw completely what it was, it would disappear, so you would not have been able to have proven it.

I hope you follow this very closely!"
--LRH


Moar of the 'Fundamentals of Thought'!

THE FUNDAMENTALS OF THOUGHT

CHAPTER NINE
KNOW AND NOT-KNOW

"It is a mechanism of thinkingness, whether one is postulating or receiving information, that one retain one’s ability to know. It is equally important that one retain one’s ability to not-know."





Now for some axioms that convoluted 'truth' and 'reality'
"Proof" gets buried/dismissed through reading TFOT, imho.
AXIOM 12. THE PRIMARY CONDITION OF ANY UNIVERSE IS THAT TWO SPACES, ENERGIES, OR OBJECTS MUST NOT OCCUPY THE SAME SPACE. WHEN THIS CONDITION IS VIOLATED (PERFECT DUPLICATE) THE APPARENCY OF ANY UNIVERSE OR ANY PART THEREOF IS NULLED.

AXIOM 16. COMPLETE DESTRUCTION IS ACCOMPLISHED BY THE POSTULATION OF THE AS-IS-NESS OF ANY EXISTENCE AND THE PARTS THEREOF.

AXIOM 17. THE STATIC, HAVING POSTULATED AS-IS-NESS, THEN PRACTICES ALTER-IS-NESS, AND SO ACHIEVES THE APPARENCY OF IS-NESS AND SO OBTAINS REALITY
And possibly the ultimate exposure of the con of scientology and hubbards axioms:
AXIOM 28. COMMUNlCATION IS THE CONSIDERATION AND ACTION OF IMPELLING AN IMPULSE OR PARTICLE FROM SOURCE- POINT ACROSS A DISTANCE TO RECEIPT- POINT, WITH THE INTENTION OF BRINGING INTO BEING AT THE RECEIPT-POINT A DUPLICATION OF THAT WHICH EMANATED FROM THE SOURCE -POINT.
The formula of Communication is: Cause, Distance, Effect, with Attention and Duplication.The component parts of Communication are Consideration. Intention, Attention, Cause, Source-point, Distance, Effect, Receipt-point Duplication, the Velocity of the impulse or particle, Nothingness or Somethingness. A non-Communication consists of Barriers. Barriers consist of Space, Interpositions (such as walls and screens of fast-moving particles), and Time. A communication, by definition does not need to be two-way. When a communication is returned, the formula is repeated, with the receipt-point now becoming a source-point and the former source-point now becoming a receipt point.
Say a lie, repeat the lie, the lie lives on over actuality
"If anyone talks about a "road to Freedom" he is talking about a linear line. This, then, must have boundaries. If there are boundaries there is no freedom." - Dianetics 55

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Wieber
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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by Wieber » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:46 am

Madeleine Tobias and Janja Lalich describe the cult leader personality in Chapter five of Captive Hearts Captive Minds. Part of that description is that the cult leader is a psychopath and a narcissist. You may disagree with that and I'm OK with people disagreeing with me. A psychopath is solely interested in what benefits them. Beyond the greatest good for self they have no interest. The cult leader learns deception and manipulation through trial and error from childhood on up, and gets really good at it. Robert D. Hare, in Without Conscience, commented on how even he, an expert on people without conscience, could be fooled and manipulated by them.

In the early days of either founding a cult or in turning an existing organization into one, the cult leader uses their skills at deception and manipulation on the few people they recruit into their thrall. As their group grows in size, the cult leader needs to teach their followers to use the same techniques of deception and manipulation that they used on the followers.

In order to teach those techniques to the followers they need to hide the true results of using them. If they were to tell their followers what the real desired results were those followers would get angry and leave. The cult leader, who lies all the time anyway, tells the followers that they will achieve benign and beneficial results, where malignant and detrimental results will actually be achieved.

So we get good people of conscience with a desire to help themselves and others using those harmful techniques convinced that the results they will get are beneficial. If they leave the cult and do not get deprogrammed and do not deconstruct those practices they will tend to continue using them. They will also teach them to others as beneficial, even though they have left, and this will tend to continue, even when the cult leader dies or leaves and the cult ceases to exist and over time is forgotten. Then we get people who have never been involved in a cult manifesting cult like behavior in society.

Much of the above is my speculation, but as I test it in real situations it seems to hold up. This is also dealt with in a book by Arthur J. Deikman M.D. (likely a psychiatrist), titled Them and Us: Cult Thinking and the Terrorist Threat. I haven't read it yet, though I have started it.

If cult thinking exists among people outside cults, then when a cult recruiter comes along, those people using cult thinking may be susceptible to falling for the cult recruiter's pitch.
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

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Demented Lron
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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by Demented Lron » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:27 pm

In my case it was excessive pride -- I thought that I could become famous if I continue Hubbard's "research" in Dianetics -- in book 1 he wrote that more research is needed in this field. I didn't want to waste my time on saving the planet, and I didn't believe in thetans. But I wanted the glory and the money at the same time.

I got only about half an hour of Dianetics auditing, but I audited my WOG friends, the total amount of hour of auditing that I delivered was about 500. My auditing was based on Volumes I and II of Dianetics Series; I didn't use the e-meter.

Why would people believe in "supernatural OT abilities"? There are several reasons for that. As many OT people say, before they went OT, their lives were "bland and boring", then everything changed after they reached OT 5 level. I guess, majority of the pre-OT people also want to spice-up their lives so they buy this stupid idea. Some want to cure their ailments, and hope for the best, although not completely believe in a favorable outcome. The others are simply mentally ill, and want to communicate with the spirits in their own way.

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duhast1
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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by duhast1 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:31 pm

Maybe it is simpler, maybe it's fear of embarrassment or something like that. I've said before that in my late teens I almost became a JW. Probably similar 'sell' techniques. Slow simple spoon feeding of very basic and non-controversial subjects that get more and more bizarre, but it's all sold as 'secret knowledge', "We know this but nobody else does". Combine that with peer pressure ("Holy crap, I just woke up and realized this is all shit"), but you are in SO deep, it is safer and more comfortable to stay in than to willingly take steps to destroy your entire world.

Just my humble opinion...
I'm worth a million in prizes.

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ArnieLerma
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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by ArnieLerma » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:36 am

Dianetics is a story, a “shore story”, told using fallacious argument, heavy emotion, and covert suggestion, to give readers a complicated reason to engage in certain specific motions, 'duplicating his instructions precisely" that get them to then hypnotize each other.
https://arnielerma.wordpress.com/2017/1 ... tive-mind/

The detailed description of the use of a shore story, is described in the "Art of deception" chapter of this CIA manual about stage magic, written by John Mulholland.. yes as in Mulholland Drive...in LA. http://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/cia-man ... n-2009.pdf < THIS explains HOW Dianetics sold us on Hubbard's rubbish...the section called Art of Deception, which is the same title I used for my ist explaianation 20 years ago.

The waiting room for "PC's" always has a chart on the wall, describing what you were going to "attain" in that next "session" - the suggestion, which you would read and re-read, and think about.. as you wait, as expectation builds..... google autosuggestion
http://www.lermanet.com/exit/gradation- ... pnosis.htm

The F/N of the E-meter actually indicates that the person has reached some degree of trance... F/N = Trance detector
the deepness of a trance is proportional to the loss of sensation in the body... pains vanish... the person is more suggestible... it is a simply wonderful feeling....
https://arnielerma.wordpress.com/2015/1 ... y-e-meter/

The "troublesome sources" and reference to "mixed practices" HCOB lists types who may have previous experience with TRANCE states... as well as electronics technicians... and those with psychology background who might figure out how this trick is being done, and then try to warn others...

The father of covert hypnotism for the US military, Dr George Estabrooks, in 1943, said "Anything said to a hypnotized subject is true for them"

Arnie Lerma, banned from ESMB, most anti-scn groups, even above top secret... if you read my stuff you will understand why, and recover control of your mind..
I's prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speake

Lermanet.com Exposing the CON since 1993
arnielerma.wordpress.com

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Wieber
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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by Wieber » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:50 am

The trance state that Scientology induces feels really good. When I did the Hubbard Apprentice Scientologist (HAS) course I did it intensively, twelve hours a day for about six days. The feeling associated with the trance state resulting from doing the drills was extreme elation. I never quite felt that way again from doing the training routines (TRs) but I approached it from auditing.

The people involved in Scientology don't know they're entering a hypnotic trance state. The words used for it within Scientology are 'keyed out,' 'high toned,' and 'case gain.' These are treated as positive things. While you are experiencing that the people interacting with you are telling you how 'theta' you are, smiling at you, love bombing you (especially when you are first in and experiencing this), and telling you how well you are doing. Then you see the registrar (Scientology sales person) and/or the recruiter.

I have a question for you, Arnie. When a person in Scientology completes a service and is in the hypnotic trance state they are required to write a success story. How does that relate to the hypnotic state?
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
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duhast1
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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by duhast1 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:16 pm

I've only been hypnotized once. It was in college, in a photography Art Appreciation class taught by John Upton. https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CH ... 77&bih=800

It was accidental, trance was not the goal, but the dark room, large projected focal point, and droning voice really hammered me. When the exercise was over and the lights came on, I was unable to move and barely able to mumble "I can't feel my arms...".

Mr. Upton was not a happy camper. That got his attention real quick, and he came over to me and talked me back to functionality. I was high as a kite for the rest of the day. I didn't find it pleasant at all.
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duhast1
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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by duhast1 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:15 pm

I just re-read some of the above by Elron about 'truth";
When you say "true," you mean an absolute. Absolutes are unobtainable.
Oh really? Bets? I will state an absolute truth here right now.

NO ONE EVER will, with just human power, and a running start, EVER jump the 26 miles from Newport Beach to Catalina island.

Absolutely.

The End.
I'm worth a million in prizes.

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Wieber
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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by Wieber » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:22 am

Once I had gone through considerable deprogramming, deconstructing what had happened, and realizing I had been put in a euphoric hypnotic trance state, I now have no desire to achieve such a state again and that includes getting a buzz from drugs or alcohol. I don't want them made illegal, I just don't want them for me.

We have had this discussion among people who have left Scientology and we have a variety of opinions on the matter. This doesn't bother me. The way I see it, when were involved with Scientology we were all the same. Now that we're out we are all different and most of the time we do not agree on everything.
“Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself.”
Doris Lessing

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simplesally
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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by simplesally » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:56 am

These sorts of people are in the minority right? You'll always find those types if you look hard enough. Scientology just brings them all together in one place :P

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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by Don Carlo » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:35 am

Welcome, simplesally. After three of your posts get approved, you become a regular poster

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Re: “How did anyone fall for this stuff?”

Post by spacecootie » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:35 pm

Wieber wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:44 am
The induction of a euphoric suggestible hypnotic trance state is not unique to Scientology. I believe this is a key action with newly contacted people in every cult. Scientology's method of inducing the trance state may be fairly unique to Scientology but there are many different ways to achieve such a state. You may have seen people falling down in evangelical meetings. What you have seen is those people going into the trance state. I don't know what terrorist cults such as ISIS do to bring on such a trance state but I will wager that they have a method of inducing it. Having achieved such a trance state the new person enters the trap. It's not an easy trap to escape, but that is also another topic.
Most churches induce trance states with their elaborate decorations, like soaring ceilings and stained glass, and repeated chants and/or singing.

It can also happen at a Trump rally or a timeshare presentation.

If you want to see a great example of a mass trance state, watch Triumph of the Will, the propaganda documentary of Hitler's 1934 Nuremberg rallies directed by Leni Riefenstahl. It's available on YouTube.

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