The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't religion

A place to post and debate the Church of Scientology.
Don Carlo
Posts: 12113
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Don Carlo » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:13 pm

LRH strengthens the case for Me-the-Magician with quotes about individuals becoming "the universe," and infinity being morally neutral, in red :
But it's very, very fascinating that you are highly individualized and you will never be more than yourself, but your self and your individuality can get up to the high point of your own recognition not only of a brotherhood with the whole universe but a sort of a recognition of yourself as the universe.

This is very dangerous for people if they are low on the tone scale, to get the idea that they're the whole universe. I've been around in institutions occasionally and run into fellows who thought they were God, and other things. And they weren't well, because they tried to reach it by the reverse route. And they backed down tone scale to get there, and the only place a fellow gets when he goes down tone scale to get there is dead.

Well, in this series I'm going to tell you how to get UP tone scale to get there and still retain your potentiality of action. The most important factors involved in thought or the material universe are the subdivisions of thought itself. And these subdivisions are affinity, reality and communication.

There are three parts of thought; there are three parts of life; there are three parts of living. And it makes a very interesting triangle.

And, of course, the eighth dynamic is merely an infinity turned on its side; eight turned on its side gives you an infinity. And so you have, there, "beingness of all." And most creeds and so forth, when they say "beingness of all," they codify this and they say God, and then they put God up in armor or something, put him on a pedestal and reduce him down to a very finite affair. They're very quick to depart from that infinity. So let's not confuse a religious symbol for an infinity of the eighth dynamic, because the infinity of the eighth dynamic simply means, in our terminology here, the "beingness of all." It has no other codification. It doesn't say that all is good, bad or indifferent; it just says it's all. You say an infinity – infinity of beingness.
— L. Ron Hubbard
Lecture 14 May 1952: Beingness
from
http://carolineletkeman.org/sp/index.ph ... Itemid=240
Last edited by Don Carlo on Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Don Carlo
Posts: 12113
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Don Carlo » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:00 pm

CoS's 8th Dynamic and creation stories summarized by Dr. Stephen Kent:
Hubbard's cosmology stated that originally there existed an energy "separate and distinct from the physical universe" called "theta' (Hubbard, 1975: 429). Theta may be the same as Scientology's "eighth dynamic"—the Supreme Being, which "the science of Scientology does not intrude into" (Hubbard, 1956: 38). Under obscure and poorly described conditions, the single theta blew apart, and individual thetans formed from the explosion. These thetans are spirits or souls, and each one begins its existence having "no mass, no wave-length, no energy and no time or location in space except by consideration [i.e., thought] or postulate [i.e., [p. 103] self-created truth]" (Hubbard, 1975: 432, see 90, 304). In essence, at first these thetans have the same qualities as theta. Hubbard, however, was not clear about how a thetan was different from a static, which "is something without mass, without wavelength, without time, and actually without position." (Hubbard, 1975: 405). Thetans do have, however, the ability to create, which soon becomes crucial for the unfolding of universes (Hubbard, 1956: 55; 1975: 432).
At some point thetans form their own universes, each of which is called a "home universe" (Hubbard, 1975: 199). The creations of each universe involved "making illusions," almost as forms of play or game (see Hubbard, 1981: 4). Again in a process that Hubbard described poorly, one thetan "got a universe and it just ate [the other thetan's] universe all up. And this is what the mest universe is doing. Evidently it is an expanding universe and it just keeps on eating into everybody's time and space" (Hubbard, 1981: 4; see Hubbard, 1952b: 47).
from
The Creation of 'Religious' Scientology by Dr. Stephen A. Kent
Religious Studies and Theology 18 No. 2 (December 1999): 97-126
http://www.solitarytrees.net/pubs/skent/creation.htm

My comments: For his origin of the Universe, Hubbard mangled astronomy (a Big Bang of one thetan becoming many) and turned physics upside down (thetans with no mass, energy, space OR time, but existing as a "thought" and able to "create" "universes" and "illusions."). There appears no Deity, just "energy" a common sci-fi plot device familiar to Star Trek fans. Also appearing: Alternate Universes, another popular sci-fi plot device. There was increasing evidence in the 1970's and 1980's that the Universe was expanding rapidly, and Hubbard wove that fact in without understanding that space was getting BIGGER; He sounded like Homer Simpson talking about doughnuts "it just keeps eating into everybody's time and space."

The concept of thetans creating universes and illusions depicts the thetans as nearly infinite in power, and competing with each other. However, they are not to be beseeched for favors or adored - Hubbard never says, Please, Thetan, make the storm go away, or Thank you, Thetan, for the sunny day. They're like the broom in the Sorceror's Apprentice, that the Apprentice broke because it carried too many water buckets. The pieces turned into many brooms carrying a flood of water buckets. The thetans are willful yet immature. They are a part of the universe, in Scientology, to be controlled and eventually ruled over. This again seems to be the Me-the-Magician practice, not a religion practice.

When Hubbard said "—the Supreme Being, which "the science of Scientology does not intrude into" this may mean that he either is too lazy, too uninspired, or too wary to flesh out his theory of a Supreme Being. I as yet have found no more explanation for the 8th Dynamic/ Supreme Being than the above-discussed "The Urge toward Existence as Infinity."
Last edited by Don Carlo on Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

Don Carlo
Posts: 12113
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Don Carlo » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:46 pm

Kent's Paper continued
After early March, 1954, Scientology auditors began receiving ordination in the Church of American Science (see Aberee, 1954: 4), which had within its chartered creed its intention "[t]o practice the teachings and beliefs and to propagate in accordance with its tenets healing of the sick and suffering by prayer or other spiritual means without the use of drugs or material remedy" (Certificate of Incorporation, 1953: 3).
*

This was an overtly religious description aimed at getting the Church of American Science accepted as a religion, following in the footsteps of the Christian Science Church. Later Church Applications were more vague. Church of Scientology, International in 1993 simply claimed "ministry of religious services." ** CSI was careful to hide its solidified dogma about only helping "the able" and their opinion that the sick and suffering had brought their misfortune upon themselves.

This era appears the only time CoS talked about "prayer" and "sick" and "suffering." Even then it said "prayer or other spiritual means" which means the auditors didn't have to pray at all.

* http://www.solitarytrees.net/pubs/skent/creation.htm

** Summary Description of Churches of Scientology - RTC, CSI, CSFSSO, CSFSO, Other Churches, Missions, Field Ministers, CSI Prod. 11-4-93, Bate Stamp: 151396 - 151398, Ex. 1-3, Washington, DC, 1993 . Thanks to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_ ... ernational
Last edited by Don Carlo on Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Don Carlo
Posts: 12113
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Don Carlo » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:00 am

More proof that thetans are powerful but controllable by Me-the-Magician magic:
In the primordial past, according to Scientologist teachings, thetans brought the material universe into being largely for their own pleasure.."[14] The universe is thought to have no independent reality, but to derive its apparent reality from the fact that most thetans agree it exists.[15] Scientologists believe that thetans fell from grace when they began to identify with their creation, rather than their original state of spiritual purity.[14] Eventually, they lost their memory of their true nature, along with the associated spiritual and creative powers. As a result, thetans came to think of themselves as nothing but embodied beings.[15][16]

Thetans are believed to be reborn time and time again in new bodies through a process called "assumption" which is analogous to reincarnation.[14] Dell deChant and Danny Jorgensen liken Scientology to Hinduism, in that both ascribe a causal relationship between the experiences of earlier incarnations and one's present life.[14] With each rebirth, the effects of the "MEST" universe (MEST here stands for matter, energy, space, and time) on the thetan are believed to become stronger.[14]

Jon Atack, whose book A Piece of Blue Sky details how he reached Operating Thetan level V before leaving Scientology, describes Hubbard's doctrines about thetans: "Thetans are all-knowing beings, and became bored because there were no surprises. Hubbard asserted that the single most important desire in all beings is to have a "game". To have a "game" it was necessary to "not know" certain things, so certain perceptions were negated ("not-is-ed")." Since thetans knew everything, this required them to abandon or suppress perceptions and knowledge. Over time, the loss of perception accumulated and certain thetans began to cause harm to others. MEST (physical) beings also sought to "trap" thetans in order to control them. Thetans came to learn contrition, punishing themselves for their own "harmful" acts.[17]

According to Hubbard, an essential part of the thetans' game was the "conquest" of matter, energy, space, and time by the life force, theta. This has produced multiple universes which have ended and begun in succession, each new one being more solid and entrapping than the last. The thetans have by now become so enmeshed in the physical universe that many have identified themselves totally with it, forgetting their quadrillions[18] of years of existence and their original godly powers.[17]

Nonetheless, according to Scientology, thetan powers are said to remain potent and restorable. One of the Church of Scientology's stated goals is "the rehabilitation of the human spirit", by which it means the restoration of the thetan's original abilities. Hubbard claims that thetans are able to change reality through "postulates" — decisions made by the individual about the nature of the reality around them. Some thetans are said to have (mis)used this ability to "implant" others with hypnotic suggestions, forcing other thetans to "cluster" around bodies (hence body thetans). This sort of directed control is referred to as "other-determinism". Scientology seeks to undo it and return the thetan to "self-determinism", where he can control himself and his environment. The eventual goal is to achieve "pan-determinism", where he acts for the good of all.

14. "License Agreement - CSI (Marks)", License Agreement between Religious Technology Center and Church of Scientology International, California, May 18th, 1982
15. "Organizational Covenant - Advanced Technology - US", Covenant between Church of Scientology International & Religious Technology Center, Location: probably Los Angeles, California, January 1, 1982
16. License Agreement CSI/Church (Marks) - License Agreement between Church of Scientology International and the Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization, Los Angeles, California, May 26th, 1982
17. License Agreement CSI/SMI and the Missions (Marks) - License Agreement between Church of Scientology International and Scientology Missions International, Los Angeles, California, May 19th, 1982
Thanks to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetan

My comment: While body thetans are like evil spirits to be exorcised, Thetans are almost like the genie-in-the-bottle inside you, that has near-infinite power and can be ruled once you know the right tricks. Like a genie, they're sometimes difficult and playful, rather than a benevolent diety.

Self-determinism is often thought of as do-it-yourself rugged individualism, and many early Scientologists who liked the self-determination of Scientology disliked suddenly belonging to a "religion."

The above description again shows that Scientology practices are self-centered Me-the-Magician rather than Religion, as defined by the scholar James Frazer.
Last edited by Don Carlo on Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Don Carlo
Posts: 12113
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Don Carlo » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:16 am

The problem with one claim that CoS is a religion:
Dr. Frank K. Flinn, adjunct professor of religious studies at Washington University in St. Louis...states that religion requires "beliefs in something transcendental or ultimate, practices (rites and codes of behavior) that re-inforce those beliefs and, a community that is sustained by both the beliefs and practices," all of which are present within Scientology.[82]
[82] Flinn, Frank K. (2005-07-05). "Scientology". Live discussion (Washington Post).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01394.html. Retrieved 2008-02-04. Thanks to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

My comment: By definition, "Infinity" (endless) doesn't equal "ultimate" (the top, or the end). So, Scientology fails the "ultimate" test. However, "Transcendental," meaning outside ordinary reality, might relate to thetans, since they lack mass energy space or time. However, Footnote 17 on my previous post states that
thetans have by now become so enmeshed in the physical universe that many have identified themselves totally with it.
So, the thetan is supposedly part of an undescribed outside reality yet deeply within the present real world, and as a bonus creating universes that are alternate to this one. This unlikely situation is the foundation for Scientology's religion status.

Yet, Frank Flinn's standards are amazingly low. For believing in any fantasy, he would a say a group deserves the prestige and benefits of a religion. In the US a religion gets the benefits of a 501(c)3 non-profit, plus it can hide its finances; religions don't have to file the usual Form 990 describing the assets, liabilities, revenues and expenses. US religions can presently abuse and exploit their workers as long as they call them "ministers." They can claim "scientific proof" for their results while never having to prove it, since anyone demanding proof is a "bigot." To gain this exalted status, according to Dr. Flinn, all a group has to do is believe in ANYTHING that is not real. It could be The Flying Spaghetti Monster. As long as they have ANY teaching, class or ritual that hails The Flying Spaghetti Monster and blesses his Noodly Appendage, and they have a "community" which I assume could be as few as three people, they're in.
Last edited by Don Carlo on Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Demented LRH
Posts: 2499
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:02 pm
Location: New York City, NY, USA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Demented LRH » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:52 pm

Hubbard believed that he obtained magical abilities after completion of his unpublished book, Excalibur, in 1936. He wrote about this book to one of his friends.

Jan 13 1949 LRH Letter from Savannah Georgia
"Wanted to tell you that Sara is beating her wits on fiction and is having to do this DARK SWORD - cause and cure of nervous tension - properly - The Science of Mind, really EXCALIBUR - in fits, so far, however she has recovered easily from each fir. It will be considerably delayed because of this. Good as my work, however, I shall ship it along just as soon as decent. Then you can rape women without their knowing it, communicate suicide messages to your enemies as they sleep, sell the Arroyo Seco Parkway to the mayor for cash, evolve the best way of protecting or destroying communism, and other household hints. If you go crazy, remember you were warned."
“This OT shit is driving me insane. On a positive side, I laugh a lot these days because I’m at a funny farm.”
L. Ron Hubbard

L. Ron Hubbard era un maestro de masturbacion fisica y mental.

Don Carlo
Posts: 12113
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Don Carlo » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:28 pm

Thanks, Demented LRH. That 1949 writing is perfect Me-the-Magician + psychopath. Wicca practitioners (modern-day witches) call using magic for criminal purposes "Black Magic" as opposed to their own "White Magic" which praises The Goddess and casts spells for "good."

Hubbard as usual took someone else's image as his own personal fantasy: The Empress, winged and redheaded, a card in one Tarot card deck popular in the 1940's:
Image(1)

He might have picked her and exaggerated her importance to impress Parsons.
In the Crowleyite system, adherents seek contact
with their "Holy Guardian Angel".(2)

In 1945, Hubbard became involved with Crowley's acolyte, Jack
Parsons. Parsons wrote to Crowley that Hubbard had "described his
angel as a beautiful winged women with red hair, whom he calls
the Empress, and who had guided him through his life and saved him
many times." (2)
Aleicester Crowley even produced his own Tarot deck (3), changing some names.(4) Crowley's Empress did not have wings and red hair(5), but then Crowley never met Hubbard, disapproved of him, and differed from him in many ways.

My comment: While Hubbard DID rituals with Parsons that likely involved candles and other objects and were linked to the Tarot Card deck, this again is not religion, but raw pursuit of magical power. Even if Hubbard gazed at the above Tarot card, "The Empress" with adoring lust for the power she might grant him, that does not constitute a religious relationship. She was just an image on a deck of cards, to be manipulated like candles and sex acts, and she vanished from Hubbard's public writings when Dianetics proved a better source of sweet, sweet cash. CoS wouldn't claim The Empress at all as a deity, out of embarassment.

Conclusion: No religion, as defined by James Frazer, has yet been uncovered in Scientology, just Me-the-Magician.

(1) http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hi95_SWSBKI/T ... mpress.jpg (one of many images found at Google Images in a search for "The Empress" tarot - I don't know if this is the image that Hubbard liked, but it does have wings and red hair.)
(2) http://www.sweenytod.com/cos/huboccult1.html
(3) http://www.alchemywebsite.com/tarot/cou ... urse13.pdf (a visual feast; check it out, J. Swift)
(4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth_tarot_deck
(5) http://tarot.com/tarot/decks/index.php? ... 5&cardID=3

Don Carlo
Posts: 12113
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Don Carlo » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:43 pm

Australia, in the Church of the New Faith case, heard arguments that it was and was not a religion. Although this is a long discussion, it's important because it could help the next anti-Scientologists focus their arguments better against Scientology. My comments in blue.
The pro-Scientology argument:
In a number of cases courts have referred to the difficulty of defining religion, e.g. Fulwood v. Clemmer(10); Washington Ethical Society v. District of Columbia(11); United States v. Kuch(12). The courts have held that a statement by an individual or by a group to the effect that the group is not a religion is not a critical admission in litigation by that person or group seeking to establish that it is: [*123].
My comments: so Hubbard writing in a book that Scientology is not a religion...can't be used against Scientology.
In Malnak v. Yogi three criteria were provided: first, the nature of the ideas in question — they must be “ultimate” ideas dealing with matters such as the meaning of life and death, man’s role in the universe, the proper moral code of right and wrong and the like; second, the group must lay claim to an ultimate and comprehensive truth; third, formal external or surface indications such as services, ceremonial functions, the existence of clergy, structure and organization, efforts at propogation etc.
My comment: Malnick vs. Yogi was the government concluding that Science of Creative Intelligence (Transcendental Meditation -TM) was a religion even though TM leaders claimed it was a non-religious simple scientific technique, and should be allowed in the public schools. (I agree with the government because of the very Hindu puja ceremony preceding teaching the mantra to the student, and because TM has gotten very unscientific with its "flying" instructions)

(pro-Scientolog argument continued
)..there are religious traditions without a God. In classical Hindu thought there are many gods but beyond all the gods there is one Ultimate Reality (Brahman) beyond description or comprehension, who is not the creator, who is utterly transcendent to creation, and to whom no worship is directed...
It can be said that there is no God in Hinduism in the sense that there is a God in Judaism, Christianity or Islam. There is but an Ultimate Principle, abstract, impersonal and transcendent, which is, largely, irrelevant to man’s immediate concerns. Of the six classical Schools of Hindu philosophy, one (Sankhya) is clearly atheistic; cf. Heinrich Zimmer, [*124] The Philosophies of India (1964), pp. 280-294. Buddhism is also often said, at least in its Theradavan tradition, to be atheistic or non-theistic; cf. Helmuth von Glasenapp, Buddhism — A Non-Theistic Religion (1970). The Jain religion (founded circa 460 B.C. by Mahavira, a contemporary of the Buddha, in India) also postulates no Supreme Being or Creator or First Cause. Two of the Chinese religious traditions — Confucianism and Taoism — may also be seen to be without the concept of a person Creator God. Both recognized an abstract principle behind and beyond all things, but it did not fit the Western definition of “God”; cf. Ninian Smart, The Religious Experience of Mankind (1977), pp. 194-220. ..
My comment: again we've got "ultimate" and "transcendant" as important badges of a religion. Again, CoS flunks the "ultimate" test because "ultimate" means the top and CoS's word "infinite" means there is no top, infinite is endless.
Again CoS passes the "transcendant" test because that means "unreal" and Theta is unreal. CoS has covered its butt by mentioning a "Supreme Being" so the pro-CoS argument could easily leave out non-Supreme-Being faiths like Jainism and Confucianism.


(Pro-Scientology argument continued):
While the areas covered by a group of beliefs claiming to constitute a religion need to be reasonably comprehensive, there is no reason why they cannot be indeterminate in particular areas leaving it to the individual to fill those areas as he sees fit. He may fill them, in particular, by accepting the whole or part of the tenets of another religion.
My comment: So CoS's religion status is not specifically disqualified by the utter vague-ness of CoS's 8th Dynamic phrase "The Urge Towards Existence as Infinity"
Non-empirical faith is not a necessary element of religion; cf. “Natural Theology”, Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church; Etienne Gilson, [*126] The Elements of Christian Philosophy (1960), pp. 116-117; H. Wolfgang Schumann, Buddhism; An Outline of Its Teachings and Schools (1973), p. 39. It follows that the fact that Scientology purports to rely on logic and empirical deduction does not disqualify it from being a religion.
My comment: you can tell this is a pro-Scientology arguer, since logic and empirical deduction are sadly lacking in Scientology. Mostly this means that blabbing about "Science" won't disqualify you as a religion.
The anti-Scientology side tried hard. Some points:
e) commercial aspects of the applicant’s operations including: (i) sale of service to members; (ii) charges for instruction leading to ordination; (iii) financial arrangements with overseas headquarters; (iv) registration as trade names of words such as “Scientology” and other steps taken to protect trade marks, trade names, patents and copyright, all owned by the founder, L. R. Hubbard; (f) that the E-Meter which is central to the applicant’s activities is at once a lie detector and a religious artefact;
My comment: the anti-Scientologist argument should have concentrated on Scientology as a self-help group solely devoted to helping only its loyal members, and on the fixed fees for courses. Trademarks are used by many charities to prevent outsiders cashing in on their good name, Catholic churches send $$$ to the Vatican, and religions use all kinds of devices.
The question correctly propounded and in its proper [*127] context is whether the applicant is in a “religious institution” for the purposes of the Pay-roll Tax Act 1971. That question must be approached by looking to the meaning of ordinary words, “religion” and “religious” and determining what they convey as a matter of ordinary understanding. Resort to constitutional cases is not helpful. In particular, resort to American cases decided under the influence of the guarantees of the First Amendment is inappropriate:
My comment: True, the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution does not necessarily apply to Australian situations.
An endeavour to define religion for legal purposes gives rise to peculiar difficulties, one of which was stated by Latham C.J. in Jehovah’s Witnesses Inc.(39): "It would be difficult, if not impossible, to devise a definition of religion which would satisfy the adherents of all the many and various religions which exist, or have existed, in the world.”
My comment: I agree.
Here's a great quote:
It is more accurate to say that protection is required for the adherents of religions, not for the religions themselves.
(Continuing)
Of course, the present case is not concerned with a personal freedom of religion; it is concerned with an exemption of a religious institution from a fiscal burden imposed upon other institutions...
My comment: Exactly! They can practice their religion in peace - they just don't get the status of a charity.
And Sir James Frazer, in a passage in his The Golden Bough (abr. ed. (1954), p. 50) cited by Young C.J. in the present case, confirms the opinion of Latham C.J.:

“There is probably no subject in the world about which opinions differ so much as the nature of religion, and to frame a definition of it which would satisfy everyone must obviously be impossible.”
My comment: Even James Frazer, who gave many quotes that self-centered magic practices aren't Religion, couldn't define Religion itself. It's more like he tried to describe what was not Religion.
Under our law, the State has no prophetic role in relation to religious belief; the State can neither declare supernatural truth nor determine the paths through which the human mind must search in a quest for supernatural truth. The courts are constrained to accord freedom to faith in the supernatural, for there are no means of finding upon evidence whether a postulated tenet of supernatural truth is erroneous or whether a supernatural revelation of truth has been made.
My comment: I agree that the State can't pick and choose what is or is not religon. I belonged to the Unitarian Church, and I believe it is a religion despite its lack of a specific Deity.
But the area of legal immunity marked out by the concept of religion cannot extend to all conduct in which a person may engage in giving effect to his faith in the supernatural. The freedom to act [*136] in accordance with one’s religious beliefs is not as inviolate as the freedom to believe, for general laws to preserve and protect society are not defeated by a plea of religious obligation to breach them...the Supreme Court held that to excuse polygamy on religious grounds would “make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect … permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government could exist only in name under such circumstances.” Conduct in which a person engages in giving effect to his faith in the supernatural is religious...canons of conduct which offend against the ordinary laws are outside the area of any immunity, privilege or right conferred on the grounds of religion.
My comment: so forcing abortions on Sea Org staff shouldn't be Sea Org's religious privilege.

Even religions founded by charlatans can be real religions:
charlatanism is a necessary price of religious freedom, and if a self-proclaimed teacher persuades others to believe in a religion which he propounds, lack of sincerity or integrity on his part is not incompatible with the religious character of the beliefs, practices and observances accepted by his followers.
(All quotes from above from first half of
http://www.uniset.ca/other/cs6/154CLR120.html
(Continued in next post)
Last edited by Don Carlo on Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Don Carlo
Posts: 12113
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Don Carlo » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:07 pm

More from the Church of the New Faith web page, my comments in blue:
Crockett J. made some findings as to the beliefs now expounded in Mr. Hubbard’s writings and accepted by his followers (70):

“According to the teachings of Mr. Hubbard the existence of a Supreme Being is to be affirmed and life is to be looked at in the terms of eight dynamics. The first is self and the eighth is the Supreme Being. The person himself is not his body but a thetan — equivalent one might say to a soul or spirit. Man’s immortality exists in the power of the thetan to undergo infinite reincarnations. … However, despite an occasional reference in Mr. Hubbard’s books to a ‘Supreme Being’, or ‘Divine Being’ or [*143] God and the placement of the eighth dynamic at the pinnacle of man’s awareness of the other dynamics, it does seem apparent, as Winn L.J. observed in Segerdal’s Case(71) that the doctrines of scientology are more concerned with ‘the transmigration and education … of Thetans than they are with God in any shape or form, or any concept of a divine, superhuman, all powerful and controlling entity’.
My comment: This strenthens my point that Scientology practices ares Me-the-Magician and My Very Own Thetan That I will Learn to Rule
The court then spoke about a code of conduct, and discussed Scientology Ethics. However,
we are unable there to find a connexion between Scientology ethics and Scientology belief; but Mrs. Allen seems, however obscurely, to be pointing to some exercise of the will connected with a belief in the survival of a thetan in association with a Supreme Being.
My translation: CoS talks about Ethics but doesn't relate them to a Supreme Being.
the Scientology confessional”, a part of auditing, which enables an individual to reveal his transgressions against “his own moral codes in terms of the Eight Dynamics, and the mores of his society”. If the practice provides a means for an individual to “regain spiritual integrity and composure”, as Mr. Hubbard claims, it is not stated to be for any reason related to the set of supernatural beliefs accepted by Scientologists.
My translation: CoS talks about a confessional but doesn't relate it to a Supreme Being.
rites and ceremonies - weddings, namings, and funerals...are set out in a book Ceremonies of the Founding Church of Scientology. That book opens with the statement: “In a Scientology Church Service we do not use prayers, attitudes of piety, or threats of damnation”, but Mrs. Allen asserts that a prayer for total freedom is said.
My comment: with all the evidence that Scientology's goal is the individual to become infinite, then the prayer for total freedom would relate to the individual goal, not a universal total freedom for everyone. We're still back to Me-the-Magician. In Scientology, Total Freedom is for loyal Scientologists. Hubbard's fair game attacks on critics denied that critics have freedom of speech and a right to privacy.
A commercial institution which derives its income from the sale of religious objects, the sale of religious services or the organization of church finances can hardly be described as a religious institution merely because its commercial activities incidentally conduce to the advancement of religion.
My comment: So why does Bridge Publications get the status of a religion?
(Much repetition of earlier points follows)
The development of Scientology resembles that of Christian Science. Mary Baker Eddy, the founder, claimed to deal with the development of human personality in a scientific way. Persecution, defections and associated lawsuits threatened to destroy what Mrs. Eddy saw as her contribution to the Welfare of humanity. So she took advantage of the legal privileges extended to religion by obtaining a formal charter for her Church of Christ (Scientist) in 1879
My comment: Yet another parallel between Hubbard and Mary Baker Eddy. See my thread Striking Parallels between CoS and Christian Science viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31220
Modern religions however tend to replace actual with notional sacrifice and to replace propitiation or appeasement with concepts such as “making peace with one’s soul”. Absence of propitiation from Scientology only indicates that Scientology is somewhat removed from the primitive religions.
Mry comment: Where did they get this? Are Judaism, Islam, Catholicism and Protestantism then "primitive?" They propititate (beg for assistance from) a deity. James Frazer of The Golden Bough says the opposite - that primitive religion evolves from Me-the-Magician to a humble acknowledgement of a higher power.

CoS isn't criticized for supposedly allowing members to have more than one faith, because
the claim to be the one true faith has resulted in great intolerance and persecution.
(More repetition of earlier points - omitted)
the evidence, in our view, establishes that Scientology must, for relevant purposes, be accepted as “a religion” in Victoria. That does not, of course, mean either that the practices of the applicant or its rules are beyond the control of the law of the State or that the applicant or its members are beyond its taxing powers.
My comment: so it's likely critics will fail to prove Scientology is "not a religion" in the legal world in Australia. however, it still has to obey the law, and it could be taxed.

All above quotes from the second half of http://www.uniset.ca/other/cs6/154CLR120.html
Last edited by Don Carlo on Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:11 pm, edited 11 times in total.

User avatar
Demented LRH
Posts: 2499
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:02 pm
Location: New York City, NY, USA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Demented LRH » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:18 pm

I’m not sure how this info relates to the discussion, but this is what Hubbard said about 8-th dynamic:

“You see, the eighth dynamic is faith. It is not even knowledge, and it is certainly not ARC or understanding. It's faith. It's a static. And in a complete static there is no understanding. And the individual is taught,“ You have to understand things in life,” so he goes ahead and tries to understand the eighth. But you can't understand the eighth—that's faith! You accept it! You don't try to wonder about it.
And you'll find, then, some peasant over in the middle of France is probably very, very happy about God, has never thought for a moment: “Is he there or isn't he there,” or anything. Very happy; he's got faith on the subject.
And you'll find some learned scholar, grinding away at his books—Spinoza. Study, study, suppose, postulate, think, think, think, think; spin, spin, spin, spin; think, spin, spin—no faith!
Now faith, however, is an automatic proposition, and the reason the guy tries to think on the subject is because people try to use it as a control mechanism. And what this individual is trying to do is understand what is trying to control him in his own race—and blames it on God, you see? People are trying to control his actions and cut down his self-determinism by using the threat and potential of God, you see? And then he is upset on this subject, so he bypasses trying to understand because he
didn't understand what people were trying to do to him, so he turns around and starts (quote) “understanding” on the subject of a Supreme Being. Well, he can't do it! And the second he does, why, it'll spin.
The way you undo it is to find out who was trying to control him with the eighth dynamic; what human being was trying to control him with the 8th dynamic; what human beings were associated with him on the subject of the eighth dynamic. And unburden his contest and conclusions with regard to these human beings. And all of a sudden the eighth dynamic will go right on up in beautiful shape—bang.”
This excerpt is taken from the lecture “Self-Determinism on the Dynamics” and can be found on page 111 in Volume 8
“This OT shit is driving me insane. On a positive side, I laugh a lot these days because I’m at a funny farm.”
L. Ron Hubbard

L. Ron Hubbard era un maestro de masturbacion fisica y mental.

Don Carlo
Posts: 12113
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Don Carlo » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:27 pm

This Self-Determination" excerpt seems to say in paragraphs 4, 5 and 6 that a peasant senses that someone or something is trying to control them, and he blames that control on God, because often people use the threat and potential of God to control the person. Ron wants to find the bad old human who was trying to control the peasant, and "unburden" the peasant, and then the 8th Dynamic and God are "in beautiful shape" since then nobody is using God to control the peasant.
Plus, it's faith (in the first paragraph) so accept it (and stop asking questions).

Don Carlo
Posts: 12113
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Don Carlo » Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:10 pm

Conclusion: Among religion scholars and debaters, it's fair to say the Me-the-Magician practices of Scientology are the primitive, self-centered core of Scientology. For purposes of government policy, however, you can't yank religion privileges from Scientology without going after the Buddhists or other amorophous groups, and making judges or lawmakers pick and choose which group is really "a religion."

My first recommendation: It would avoid many questions if Australian (and US laws) can be changed, that all organizations wanting tax exemptions have to prove they are charitable, that is, benefitting the entire community, not just a members-only self-help club, and just LEAVE OUT the word "religion," a word that can mean ANYTHING, and thus is legally meaningless.

My second recommendation: Law-breaking should have tax consequences, aside from the legal punishments. A local church corporation (Say CoS of Adelaide) whose president, secretary or treasurer committed a felony to hide church crimes or church member crimes, or committed the felonies of extortion and fraud to enrich the church, will lose for CoS of Adelaide any tax benefits, but the members can re-group and apply for tax benefits as a new corporation. If the Sea Org/leaders of Scientology in the entire country of Australia committed similar felonies, then that ruling corporation, and any local churches found guilty of conspiring in any felony, should be denied tax breaks. Any of these groups re-applying under new names, will be scrutinized for their promises of benefitting the entire community. If the corporation feels it is a hardship to re-apply, they are welcome to continue on as a regular non-charity, and are required to pay taxes.

My third recommendation: Financial disclosure rules should be the same for all charities, including churches. Any group that cannot summarize its own assets, liabilities, revenue and expenses once a year is itself vulnerable to fraud from within. Disclosure should especially include payments sent overseas. Australians should see the pile of money headed to Los Angeles, or the Vatican.

My fourth recommendation: International Association of Scientologists and its offshoots, if claiming to be charities, should be especially required to summarize its revenue and expenses. This group uses lavish and high-pressure fund-raisers supposedly to fight psychiatric abuses and countries that are unfriendly to Scientology. However, it is said to spend vast sums on private eyes spying on critics. It would be revealing to IAS members to see where their money goes.

My fifth recommendation: Australia should require that any religion getting charity status actually be a functioning group in Australia with at least two-thirds of its staff residing permanently in Australia and doing work that relates to Australia. This could also be part of the disclosure rules, where the corporation lists details about its activities, with a requirement to state where the activities/benefits occurred, and where its staff has permanent resident (by country). Form 990 in the US asks charities for their activities over the past year, and Australia likely has a similar requirement: why not add a rule that charity activities be further described as Australian and non-Australian? Church of Scientology Religious Education College, Inc, (CSRECI) is an Australian charity sited in the UK. http://www.scientology.org.uk/ Although reciprocity is not required for charity status between England and Australia, CSRECI uses its Australian charity status (even though CSRECI has no staff or members IN Australia) to impress UK authorities and get out of paying some UK taxes. See http://www.rickross.com/reference/scien ... ain34.html
and
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/7506

My sixth recommendation is that there be no "ministerial exception" for labor law violations, except if the job, like Catholic priest, requires only males because of long-held dogma. Another exception might be a church that wants to only hire its own members as staff. But, exploitation like below-minimum-wage salaries for employees, or forced abortions, should be illegal. Recent bad publicity from the Headley case has made Sea Org more willing to let Sea Org woman who have a wanted pregnancy, to quit and have their babies. However, accusations about starvation wages well below minimum wage haven't been enough to embarass Sea Org into paying better - the government needs the will to enforce the minimum wage law ONCE, and then Sea Org might change. The Herald Sun said August 2011 that CoS in Australia may go bankrupt paying back wages. If so, so hurray for Australia, and enjoy the boost to your economy if money comes from LA to pay the back wages. If the Australian orgs close, at least CoS will find it harder to extract money from Australian members and send it to LA.

IF Australian orgs go bankrupt, all the above recommendations and discussions can be used for other countries like New Zealand.

A final recommendation is to be bold, like other countries have been about denying that Scientology is a religion, mostly on grounds of fraud and exploitation. These bold countries include**
Belgium
Brazil
Canada has mixed regulations
Denmark
Finland
France is unresolved
Germany is unresolved
Greece
Italy has mixed regulations
Kazakstan
Norway
Russia (though Russia goes too far - thinking the Salvation Army is militaristic!)
Sweden
UK has mixed regulations

* http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-n ... 6123609542
** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientolog ... by_country

Don Carlo
Posts: 12113
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: The Golden Bough: Me-the-Magician practices aren't relig

Post by Don Carlo » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:08 pm

Snicker. There's a Scientologist folk music group called The Golden Bough.(Note 1)
A brief history of Golden Bough says their founder are Paul Espinoza, Margie Butler and Lief Sorbye (Note 2); all have Scientology completions. (Note 3)

So, Scientologists named their music group after a philosopher's book that would label Scientology "not a religion."

Note 1: http://hatewatch.freedommag.org/hatewac ... issu07.htm

Note 2: http://www.goldenboughmusic.com/History/about.htm

Note 3: For example, http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/st ... orbye.html,

Post Reply
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “Opinions & Debate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests