How to interpet Korzybski

A place to post and debate the Church of Scientology.
peter
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Post by peter » Tue Apr 24, 2001 3:53 pm

TO SIMPLEX
your mb process scale is not my differentiation scale, and thus these shall not be intermixed either!

we select abstractions, according to our own judgement, and we shall not confuse the orders of abstractions, but you are free to do so, if you like it?

I know under my own limitations, and I will differentiate again, if I find something more!
A simple explanation with few explanation grounds is to prefer, except when you need to hide your flaws! - Peter Soderqvist

simplex
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Post by simplex » Wed Apr 25, 2001 2:13 pm

Peter,
: "we select abstractions, according to our own judgement"

Thanks that is what I want to hear! I belive that our differences is grounded in our different work areas. I belive that you are primarily addressing people with various problems while I want to explore GS implementations that are useful in my everyday situations.

Let's leave the topic untill I have read some more....

Simplex

simplex
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Post by simplex » Thu Apr 26, 2001 10:28 am

Summary from an other debate...

I currently interpret Korzybski's observations as a documentation of the limitation of the human nature. That is, if you stand up and spin around fast your world view will be blurred for some time, and likewise, Korzybski found that asking for the deep meaning of abstract words - say, "emotions" - we will soon reach a state of confusion.

My conclusion is thus that Korzybski makes us realize the limitations of human nature, and this should upfront make us humbly rethink: how well are we actually doing - and are we moving in the right direction?

As I see it we are not moving in the right direction! We have been very efficient in our engineering of nature, but not very successful! We manage to destroy natural resources at high speed, and we are unable to solve the problems that we cause.


I do thus not find that engineering emotions or "human nature" is a further step in the right direction. We should rather stop our progresses and re-think what we are doing.

Korzybski is perhaps correct in a different way than he intent? Reading his books may make us stop for a short while, but if we still interpret the words from the (human) engineering paradigm (say like Scientology and new-age does) we are still just "talking heads" on the road to nowhere.

Do not misunderstand me - or please do so in a different way. I do not want to invalidate Korzybski or Engineering, but the major outcome of his thinking must be that we are not able to manage our own engineering skills. Scientology is a perfect example of that!

Simplex
Engineering is an other word for manipulation?

peter
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Post by peter » Thu Apr 26, 2001 1:42 pm

TO SIMPLEX
I will make my issue clearer here, an individual's assumptions of various kind, can be symbolized by a mirror, and when the mirror is plane, his assumptions are in accord with his nature too, since the picture is analogous. A concave, or convex mirror has a disturbed, or aberrated picture (aberration is even a non-Scientology term). The problem here is when, the individual believes, that his concave, or convex picture is his real nature, and because of confused concepts of dimensions, he suffer, and don't know why?

THE ANTI WHATEVER GROUPS?
This is a very broad generalization, so I will point to some particulars here, "anti item groups" are in the main absolutistic, and final "minded" since their concept is static, and not a dynamic infinitely valued, in terms of degrees, and probabilities! And this is an Aristotelian two valued either, or with excluded third, (a black or white orientation). Aristotelian orientation is still valid, but limited useful. For instance, if the answer from a pregnancy test is negative or positive is still workable? An anti-abortion static conviction, is a one valued intensional orientation, in disregard for extensional facts! I refer to my yesterday message, labeled Regarding Abortion. Some of them are prepared to kill, a "mature" doctor, in order to protect an 8 weeks old fetus! I think, I understand, from that point of view, what you mean, with "anti takes up all their "emotional" energy"!

AN EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENT SEMANTIC REACTIONS?
This is a new order of abstraction! I firmly believe that a scientific modern education, with its four dimensional, infinitely valued orientation is the solution to all human problems up to date, not only higher order of abstraction (cortical) theoretical education, but even thalamic (lower nerve centers). Namely moving fingers, neuro-linguistically, pushing computer buttons, in a coherent grammar, and thus indicates through messages, the different orders of abstractions. And disagree, when the orders are confused, or disordered, and even point it out, when it is so, in order to make it possible to differentiate, and thus conscious of abstracting, and natural semantic reaction, as a consequence!

The books by Alfred Korzybski, Manhood of Humanity, and Science and Sanity, in this order, are an excellent education tool, with its rigorously discrimination between different types, and dimensions!

There are two ways to slide easily through life: Namely to believe everything or to doubt everything, both Ways save us from thinking. - Alfred Korzybski!

TO SIMPLEX
Your reply is close to not in touch with my message, and it is because you don't understand its content, and I am too bored, to care about it!

However, is botany engineering some kind of manipulation too?

A human being and humanity are part of nature, according to Korzybski. Humanity is a Time-binding, and thus cooperating, symbolizing class of life, very different from animalistic selfish, brute competitions, with tooth, and claws, mere Space-binding animalistic fighting for a place in the Sun!

Time-binders, and awareness about it, are not the same type, as mere space-binders, and thus governed with mental faculties, to understand that nature, shall not be misused, or plundered, because human beings cannot live without nature!

Don't intermix animalistic engineering, with human engineering!
A simple explanation with few explanation grounds is to prefer, except when you need to hide your flaws! - Peter Soderqvist

peter
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Post by peter » Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:14 am

TO SIMPLEX
Your last message here proves that your education level, about Korzybski's a non-Aristotelian systems, and its modus operandi, General Semantics, is close to nothing! I mean basic words like time-binding, space-binding, Chemistry-binding, human engineering, is not understood by you!

Your definition of the term engineering, in the subject human engineering, as manipulation is totally wrong defined by you! I refer to Medical dictionary on-line, regarding 4 words, namely, engine, engineering, human, and most of all, to human engineering! http://www.graylab.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?humanengineering

What is the difference between time-binding standards of evaluation, and mere space-binding standards of evaluation, and its relation to Science and Art of human engineering?

I don't care to answer you messages, as long as you are ignorant!
A simple explanation with few explanation grounds is to prefer, except when you need to hide your flaws! - Peter Soderqvist

simplex
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Post by simplex » Mon Apr 30, 2001 12:36 pm

Human engineering:
The science of designing, building or equipping mechanical devices or artificial environments to the anthropometric, physiological, or psychological requirements of the people who will use them.



Sorry I'm an ignorant person. I take pride in being simple and I thus often misinterpret complex words. (I have upfront stated that I am no expert to GS).

My only real objection is that Korzybski claims that we can change or improve "human nature". I fear that that can lead to a fan of misinterpretations.


Peter: However, is botany engineering some kind of manipulation too?

Indeed it is - I would interpret engineering as manipulation and design (design is a kind of manipulation or attempt to improve). And I belive that Korzybski have proven that we are not very good at that.


What we thus need is "mechanical devices or artificial environments" that helps us avoid the pits that we constantly encounter. If we work with botany engineering I would say that we are perhaps skilled to manipulate plants to fit human needs perfectly, but the long term impact on (human) nature is unknown.

Part of the problem is that we rapidly destroy evidence of previous engineering, that is we do not take note of the problems created before we move on to the next generation of engineering. ( Solution1 soon leads to solution218, and we do not know if there are any side effects to the missing links.

This leads to chaotic states, say the mad cow situation in Europe (is it solved, probably not?). So no matter what kind of engineering we make, we mess with our own habitat.

humans is part of nature, but nature done not "need humans" in the first place!


This leads me to the conclusion that humans must be more humble towards nature, and indeed their own nature - that is there are limits to what we can change and control. We have been much to hasty to implement new engineering and I fear that misinterpretations of Korzybski will led to more effective implementations with unpredictable results.


The effect of this would be that Korzybski is blamed for that, say he could be linked to Co$ by ignorant people like me? Nobody benefits from that....

So what we need is "simplified Korzybski" or "Clean Korzybski", that can lead us to engineering without self manipulation. The result of this may look like a giant step backwards to some engineers, but that is the reality we must address.

I also see that Korzybski could lead us to some anti-self-manipulation tools - people would however not initially understand the need for such tools, since such tools probably would place restrictions upon our engineering rather than speeding up the process....

Simplex

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