I feel it is a VERY important thread yet am torn as to why the KSW baggage in my opinion comes with it. I feel it is mentally unhealthy. Maybe its me and I see things in black and white or sometimes with blinders on, but the blame and root of abuse lays squarely @ the feet of its founder L ron Hubbard. I am saddened an ex member can not move on from something that has and is harming many.

Big thumbs up for this. That is exactly the point that so many critics are making. I also tend to believe that Karen's description of David Mayo is more accurate than Hubbard's. It would have been more civilized for Hubbard to simply write about Mayo, "We had a parting of the ways. I wish him well."

Scientologists are taught to get to the "basic on the chain." If you don't get to "basic," you don't erase the problem. The point of many critics is that Hubbard and his writings are ultimately the "basic," and if you don't reach them, the problems are going to persist. Scientology auditing is built on the premise that aberrated thoughts cause aberrated behavior. Mental aberration is the "Held Down 7" that causes people to behave irrationally. Many critics are suggesting that ideology itself can act as a "Held Down 7." This doesn't mean that one must dump an entire ideology. It simply means being able to discern what is good and bad in an ideology. There may be a diamond in the slag heap, and perhaps that is the "auditing tech," but there is an awful lot of slag in Scientology.

Karen, this has been a great thread. These stories need to be told. You are simply running into people who have not dissimilar stories about Hubbard. It's a mistake to tune them out. Tamasin went through her hell, and you went through yours. I am acquainted with a former Sea Orger from L.A. in the 1970's when Hubbard was very much in charge and Miscavige was barely in the picture. Just in his org which was not in the slightest way touched by Miscavige who would have been too young at the time, in just the span of a couple of years, there was a staff suicide attempt with a razor blade to the wrists after an "ethics handling" by a senior, an attempted late-night murder attempt with a hunting knife against another staff member that the Guardian's Office refused to report to the police, constant staff blows (at least people could blow easily back in those days), seemingly endless "Flag" and "Guardians Office" "missions" with endless "HCO Confessionals" even though sec-checking was supposedly cancelled by Hubbard, and an atmosphere that the ex said was paranoid and suffocating. And that was during what many people describe as Scientology's best years!

And as for the quote from David Mayo, it is a small point, but in academia, it is an important one. If you delete long sections of text, especially a full sentence or more, then use the three dots: "..." By typing "14" and then just launching into the text, it creates the wrong impression that there was nothing else between "14" and the rest of the quote, when, in fact, there appears to have been significant text involving Hubbard. I tend to believe the Hubbard-inclusive version because I had read it a couple of years ago when I was fishing around for information about Mayo, and I did not come across the truncated version--although, admittedly, I could have missed it. So, please don't be mad at operatingwog. He actually made a good point that any college professor would have also pointed out to you.

I hope to see more of these stories.

Karen#1 is a new member at OCMB.

I am a senior member.

Karen#1 was being constantly attacked and insulted the toxic Armstrong faction here at OCMB. This is why I advised Karen#1 to simply ignore the repetitive sniping and attacks from the Armstrong faction.


/////

^^ Well done Swift. I've been worried about that toxic armstrong faction too. Them and the sugar snatchers in the kitchen and the jellybubblies at the end of the garden. (And the APA, the FBI, the cabal of bankers, and the Nazi Cabertaites.)

Babies and the Sea Org ~~ The Final SOLUTION ~~ Part One

It was only a short time before I demanded to leave the Sea Org that this incident occurred.

It was a black and dark incident. The whole base crew were summoned to the main hall. It was MANDATORY. These Mandatory enforced "whole base" meetings were always full of more THUGGERY more enforced REALITY.

Times were hard in the Sea Org in Los Angeles...it was around 1990 when all within was still very secretive and Internet blogs and message boards did not exist. Here and there a BBS.

Here's some the newer rules implemented::::

++++All Annual Leaves cancelled. No more 3 weeks a year Annual Leave
++++A day off every 2 weeks if you statistic and production was Up was also cancelled. No more days off
++++Pay was down to 1/4 pay or 1/2 pay. Some weeks $5 some weeks $10 for 60 to 80 hour weeks !
++++All family time cancelled. For those that had children under 5 years old like I did, this was rough. No longer permitted to spend 1 hour a day with the children.

Less and Less privileges, longer and longer hours, more and more discipline, it was spinning out of Control into a true CULT.

This last rule actually caused an EXODUS. Many requests to leave did occur. Those that had family could leave and join family. But there is many a Sea Org member that has NO family. And you can hardly save up to have nest egg to live on if you depart when you make $5 to $10 a week !

The meeting was BRUTAL. "CMO "Commodore Messenger Org" MESSENGERS" ran the meeting.
It was an Order.
Branded in with atomic steel.
Screaming, demeaning, authoritative, humiliating.

The Message was loud and clear.

NO MORE BABIES IN THE SEA ORG!

It was written by Guillame Lesevre, a lifetime appointed "ED INT"
Executive Director, Church of Scientology International who himself banished his 2 daughters for life to go live with their grandmother. Setting a "good example."

The Flag Order I will post below is one of the most vicious policies the "church" has ever adopted. It was ordered directly by David Miscavige, and Guillame only rubber stamped the order and put it in words.

It is a denigration, a degradation of the sanctity of marriage, but worse, it resulted in the complete abuse of hundreds of children, the whole sale abortion of thousands more for the next 25 years. I will quote:

"The Sea Org is not set up to handle or take care of children. Sea Org members getting children has resulted in an unpractical burden on the Sea Org units and inhibited their efficiency. No SO installation has the job of making SO members for twenty years from now."  Flag Order 3905-1 CHILDREN, SEA ORG MEMBERS AND SEA ORG ORGS, 3 April 1991

“Making SO members for twenty years from now”?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thousands of forced abortions subsequently occurred. Whereas most RELIGIONS honor the nucleus family and encourage the nurturing and building block of society ~~ the CULT of SCIENTOLOGY has a track record of GENOCIDE or unborn babies.

It gets worse. The action of having children is SPUN into a “crime” to be “hidden” in secrecy:

"... withholding the fact that there are pregnant SO members in the org, will result in a Committee of Evidence on the org PCO, Dir Routing and Personnel, HAS, Supercargo and Captain/CO as well as the SO members concerned."  

Yes, let's Comm-Ev pregnant women!

COMM EV = Committee of Evidence is a severe Justice procedure within the Church. The 4 committee members have the Power to RPF the person or implement as much penalty as they would like.

~~~to be continued

tamasin-sp I am so sorry to hear of you losing your entire family at the age of 11. My God how horrible!!! I for one appreciate your telling your story and getting the truth out as best you can as this is the kind of information the world needs to know. It is the kind of information that can help many others who have yet to work their way out of the darkness after being subjected to abuses and the like while involved with organized scientology whether carried out by Hubbard, Miscavige or anyone else.

I always liked this strategy which includes just continuing to get out the truth in every possible way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6eNyBrQUKs

Whether the story of abuse involves Hubbard, Miscavige or anyone carrying out their orders, the truth is the truth no matter how unpleasant it is to know it.

Thank you so very much for being here and helping to educate the rest of us on very important things you know. It must be really hard for you but I for one deeply appreciate it.

w/<3
Larry
SME

Babies and the Sea Org ~~ The Final SOLUTION ~~ Part One Addendum.

A "Golden Rod" issue came out around this time.
I can see it in my mind's eye.

I am paraphrasing the content, but what it said was that if a couple permitted a pregnancy they would be shipped out of the US to a boarderline quasi 3rd world country existence ~~ such as the boonies of MEXICO.

With no money to survive the first few weeks, they had to MAKE money $$$ for the Church before they could have bread on the table.

"Slummy Mexico" and the emphasis on MEXICO created a FLAP.

OSA PR saw it as OUT PR and the issue got withdrawn.

Oh my goodness gracious. This is truly shocking. I didn't know a lot of this stuff. Keep up the good work, Karen#1.

Karen, what is the point of posting this in a thread called: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside, when you are not willing to answer questions? (Like Martys blog).

This board has fractions yes, but you post like you put fingers in your ears and go nanaNANAnana. Not everybody here is in the Hollywood fraction (or the indies) and when we dont agree we ask questions. This is not a place we press facebook-Like to every post, and praise the OP. When you are hurting so many people, as you do now, with so different opionons than you, why dont you use a different tool to do it.

Andreas made this place for people to talk, but you seem to talk to just one side of the story and dont want listen about the other... LRH was an evil man and a nasty peace of work..

Oh God "The Final Solution", what a horrible, horrible ring that has.

Thank you so much Karen for this information as well as all the other information you have given on this thread.

Of all the many horrible abuses you have covered that are and have been carried out in organized scientology, the ones that affect children, born or unborn, are the ones that tear at my heart the most.

I know you far better than most here and know what a kind and caring person you are. I especially know how much this all tears at your heart as well. And while you and I have so many disagreements about scientology and LRH, we don't disagree on wanting to see all the abuses stopped.

I also know much of what is going on back channels that has huge legal potential of FORCING organized scientology to stop the types of abuses covered on this thread and even potentially bringing criminals like Miscavige to justice. And I know how much you help with this. You have been a big help to me in my getting important information to a major government body to try to get them to take appropriate action.

I don't think that most people know that, like me, you wish to see organized scientology dissolved with its vast financial resources going to people it has hurt and to worthy non-scientology related causes.

I also don't think many people know that you only want the freedom of individuals to practice what they consider "scientology" freely in a non abusive way and you wish to see no more regging of big sums of money for scientology services with "the tech" freely available to anyone who wants to use it. You also agree that it should not be subsidized by our governments.

Like me, you see the future of "scientology" being individuals practicing it at home or in small groups.

I know that you feel that most Indies only want the above and have no desire to take over or run organized scientology, with organized scientology being dissolved as above.

I know your intentions are very good, like your heart.

But, as I mentioned to you on the phone, I do not think that it is realistic that all of what we know as organized scientology will be dissolved from a combination of hugely effective criminal and civil actions against it. At least we should not count on that.

By all means let us keep up with actions towards that end, but I suspect that there will indeed be an organized scientology even when Miscavige is forced out and hopefully prosecuted.

And this means that an organized scientology will exist with the resources to carry out the same types of fraud and abuses as the organized scientology we now know, complete with horrid policies covering the RPF, the Sea Org, disconnection, hard selling, treating innocent people as criminals, destroying opponents, etc.

And all that means that someone has to run it.

Can we count on people of good heart who were never abusive running it, cancelling abusive policies and making sure no future abuses happen? If history has taught us anything I fear that we cannot count on that even though we both talked of people who were never abusive even though we were high up in scientology in the past.

Certainly it should raise concerns such as those raised by many on this thread.

I and I know others who are not Indies or believers in anything LRH are going to stand side by side with you and other Indie whistleblowers of good heart to expose and fight the abuses found in organized scientology.

I know that if anyone has the possibility of carrying out a version of scientology that does not contain the abuses and policies covering the above, it would be you and people who have a heart like your own.

But I suspect that it will not be as easy a job as some Indies may think. And I believe you are going to have to steel yourself for a lot of criticism from people, such as those on this thread, who have been hurt in scientology or by scientologists and who have valid and very real concerns that there will never be a non abusive scientology.

I hope that all of us with concerns concerning scientology are proven wrong and can just go our own ways on each our own paths.

But in the meantime I suggest that many Indies brace themselves for the fact that our beautiful karmetic vortex has not yet run its course and is still to run though much more of what is scientology as has been practiced by regs, ethics officers, "special affairs", RTC, CMO and any other parts of any form of an organized scientology that have hurt others.

Although I will first stand up for the rights of all to speak out, my deepest wish and my heart is with you to do well on this my dear friend.

w/<3
Larry

On that excellent note, I am going to move posts that don't have to do with the topic from here out to another thread, where people can continue to express their important opinions.

Karen#1. Do you have documentation to support your above statement that in fact thousands of forced abortions occurred?

Please don't. I believe that will further confuse the senior controversy in which Scientologists wish to generate confusion. Also there is a need to create the best possible record, and other legal reasons.

Your earlier thread splitting has created confusion and appears to be not neutral. If you want to create a new thread, where people can continue to express their important opinions, sure. But please do not split these threads. Or you should do it for the slightest objection of off-topicness or whim by anyone.

This thread is no more important than any other thread, and Karen is no more important than any other person here. Her disregard for other people's points of view is no more important than our disregard for her point of view.

I'm assuming my posts are among those which will be excised.

This doesn't seem to me to be about keeping the thread on-topic. The thread is functioning as a lively but broadly on-topic debate. Karen is continuing to present accounts of abuse within scientology (at Int and otherwise). Discussion of this abuse and of other cult abuse, and discussion of this discussion is occurring.

I don't know why I bothered discussing with you whether and why I should or shouldn't post on this thread (on the understanding that I was free to do so if I wished). What was the point if you're going to simply excise my posts (and those of others) anyway?

Actually I do know why I bothered: it was because I didn't imagine you'd do something like this. I actually believed I had the freedom to post on this thread if I so chose.

Karen is no more entitled to conduct a monologue than any other poster on this board. She should not be assisted to do so by a moderator.