Discussion of Abuses and Punishments in Radical Scientology

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tamasin-sp
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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by tamasin-sp » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:39 pm

Karin Pouw wrote:
tamasin-sp wrote:
Karin Pouw wrote:From wwp:
Image
"Highwinds" # 5 from 1984. Evidently it is from the Appollo days."
That poor lass in the photo standing behind L. Ron is Julie Blundell.
Interview with Kima Douglas,
Oakland, California, 27 August 1986

Kima Douglas was very much a typical Scientologist during her years in the Church, from 1968 to 1980: she was young, English-speaking, well-educated and totally committed. She was well-qualified to join L. Ron Hubbard's naval élite, the Sea Org, which had been founded in 1967. Her past nursing experience in her home country of Rhodesia was discovered at a time when Hubbard's health was rapidly deteriorating and for seven years, from 1973 to 1980, she became a unique combination of nurse, aide de camp and confidante. When she was interviewed in 1986 by the British journalist and writer for his biography of Hubbard, Bare-Faced Messiah, she had an extraordinary story to tell. The following is a transcript of that interview.

These are just a couple of short excerpts:

"He'd always have 2-3 little girls with him. ......One messenger would walk with him and a couple went behind. They were little girls in white shorts. There was never any sexual link. Never touching, nothing. There might have been a little voyeurism, he liked them in their white tops and shorts. Budding pubescent girls in tight, tight jeans. I think it was just, if anything, slight voyeurism. but no innuendoes at all, nothing.

................

The chain locker on the ship was large, lit during the day through the hole where the chain went through. There was a bucket for a toilet. I know children were put in there and kept overnight.

I saw him physically violent twice. He slapped a boy who answered him back and slapped him across the face with an open hand, and knocked him off his feet."
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shel ... s/kima.htm
tamasin-sp, do you know if the unhappy looking girl in this photo is still alive? Her cheek looks swollen and her eye black. I hope LRH didn't slap her like Kima said she saw him do to a boy.
I never knew Julie Blundell or at least not that I remember, however, her swollen cheek may have been a tooth abscess, I had one on board the Apollo.They tried to audit it out. Have YOu ever been in agony from a tooth abcess? I have many times, anti biotics usually does the trick, auditing, NO!
The tooth abscess is probably the most likely explanation but Kima's account of LRH slapping a boy hard enough to knock him off his feet made me think it was a possibility. Another ex said her name was Julie Blundell and that she was 10 years old in that photo and a messenger. They didn't know her current status. She looks younger than 10.

Seeing a child given as a servant to LRH/Scientology makes me sad.
Karin Pouw,

I think it is a tooth abscess, I could be wrong,as for the blackish looking eye, it is possible it is a black eye, however it is also possible she moved slightly when the photo was taken. She has a very long dark fringe. However it is also possible she has been hit. Which ever way you want to look at it, why is a young girl in attendance with LRH when she is quite obviously in pain. A swollen face like that is agony.And, yes she does look younger than 10, more like 8. And, yes it is extremely sad. So many children abused by scientology tech and by L. Ron Hubbard.
Look at our brokenness.
We know that in all Creation
Only the human family
Has strayed from the sacred way.

Teach us love,compassion,honour
That we may heal the earth
And heal each other.(part of an Ojibway prayer)

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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Don Carlo » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:09 pm

Again, Karen can go off topic because she has spent months working on this thread. In contrast, comments attacking Karen for focussing on the near present, Gold Base, rather than the fifties, at sea, are eruptions of an old grudge. Plus, Tamasin is trying to MAKE Karen speak about the 1950's and Karen is not a puppet to say what Tamasin wants her to say.

Also, Karen is ADDING CONTENT as she posts the fatcats getting their certificates while others are persecuted. Tamasin, are you going to tell your story in your own thread or are you too angry to focus on the past. It is not bold and brave of you to attack Karen. It's lazy, repetitive and unhelpful. You didn't lose a fine young son to CoS and she didn't have your early trauma. You both are victims and trying to force statements out of Karen is making you the bully.

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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Karen#1 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:19 pm

Kookaburra (Aussie poster) on "my story" thread reveals that this new horror story will be on the Air today.
I will post the video....
This abuse is continuing through the years. It is SADISM. A global commission needs to be an oversight on Scientology Crimes and Criminality internationally
Young girl imprisoned, beaten and abused in Sea Org, Sydney

Image
Scientology propaganda

Actuality :
she changed her mind about the Sea Org when she finished the EPF and wanted to go back to Taiwan, so they locked her up under guard, drugged her, and staged fake phone calls from her family telling her they didn't want her, she should stay in Sydney and so on. She tried to escape, smashed a window with her fist, then used glass to defend herself against her guard who was using broken glass to try to prevent her escape. A neighbor heard the screams and called the police. Someone from Scientology claimed that she had tried to commit suicide and was violent, this was communicated to the hospital. She was also coached to lie and to say that she was "reaching for the stars" which made her sound totally nuts so when they finished stitching up her hands they put her in the psychiatric ward, where she improved for awhile as she was being treated for trauma, but then some psychiatrist decided that Scientology's story was fact so she must be delusional and drugged her with massive doses of Seroquol (Quetiapine) for several weeks. The resulted in a zombie like state which I suspect is permanent brain damage as she can no longer think and reason and this condition has not improved.
And Scientology INC pretends it stands for Human Rights !

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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Karen#1 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:38 pm

The Church Of Scientology in Sydney has been accused of holding a young Taiwanese woman hostage after she suffered a mental breakdown The Church of Scientology denies the allegations


ABC Lateline program in Australia:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/ ... 698162.htm


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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by I'mglib » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:32 am

"A man may build himself a throne of bayonets, but he cannot sit on it." -William Ralph Inge

Watch the Los Angeles press conference here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ScilonTV#p/

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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Pussy Riot » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:48 am

Don Carlo wrote:Again, Karen can go off topic because she has spent months working on this thread. In contrast, comments attacking Karen for focussing on the near present, Gold Base, rather than the fifties, at sea, are eruptions of an old grudge. Plus, Tamasin is trying to MAKE Karen speak about the 1950's and Karen is not a puppet to say what Tamasin wants her to say.

Also, Karen is ADDING CONTENT as she posts the fatcats getting their certificates while others are persecuted. Tamasin, are you going to tell your story in your own thread or are you too angry to focus on the past. It is not bold and brave of you to attack Karen. It's lazy, repetitive and unhelpful. You didn't lose a fine young son to CoS and she didn't have your early trauma. You both are victims and trying to force statements out of Karen is making you the bully.
Don Carlo I still don't get it. I understand that you don't allow personal attacks or bullying. I completely agree with that. I just can't see why people can't post about scientology abuses. Karen#1 has posted about abuse on the Freewinds, for example, which doesn't seem very different to me from talking about abuses on the Apollo or any other scientology boat. None of these boats are in Riverside County but why should that matter? And why should it matter if it's the 70s or the 90s? Having different people posting about scientology abuses doesn't detract from Karen#1's posts. It adds even more content about scientology abuses to the thread and gives different perspectives on what Karen#1's fighting against. I can't see why that isn't a good thing.
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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Don Carlo » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:24 am

Problem 1: Tamasin repeatedly tries to diminish Karen's loss of her son as "just one" person when so many had suffered. This is cruel. I deleted the phrase where Tamasin did this in the last day or two, in the off-topic area where I had sent one of Tamasin's earlier posts. This is the underlying problem of the interruptions on The Gold Base abuses thread, that Miscavige denunciation by Karen isn't good enough for Tamasin.
Problem 2: Freedom of speech includes not being MADE to denounce your own private beliefs. Even authoritarian systems usually leave private thoughts alone. It's The Hole in Sea Org that makes people confess that they weren't pure enough, and makes them say things against themselves. Tamasin acts like Karen can never be good enough until Karen says exactly what Tamasin wants, which is a massive essay on the badness of LRH and of Karen's badness and wrongness for neglecting this topic.

If you disagree here, it is up to you to OUTWRITE the other person preferably with historical fact, but that person is not bad and wrong just for having a different set of priorities.

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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Karen#1 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:25 am

The blatant lies of the Australian Lawyer denying that people are held in Isolation is mind boggling.

Once of the worst case histories ever is the Church of Scientology and Lisa Mcpherson.

Lisa Mcpherson soon after being declared "clear" died 17 days later after being kept in captivity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Lisa_McPherson

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/

Google Lisa Mchperson



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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Dorothy » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:57 am

Pussy Riot wrote:Don Carlo I still don't get it. I understand that you don't allow personal attacks or bullying. I completely agree with that. I just can't see why people can't post about scientology abuses. Karen#1 has posted about abuse on the Freewinds, for example, which doesn't seem very different to me from talking about abuses on the Apollo or any other scientology boat. None of these boats are in Riverside County but why should that matter? And why should it matter if it's the 70s or the 90s? Having different people posting about scientology abuses doesn't detract from Karen#1's posts. It adds even more content about scientology abuses to the thread and gives different perspectives on what Karen#1's fighting against. I can't see why that isn't a good thing.
Hi Pussy Riot, welcome to the board, and I love the name :D .

This whole website is about the abuses that happen in the Church of Scientology. That is a very general subject. All threads here are basically involved with that. The difference is reporting on certain incidents of abuses that Karen has some connection to as opposed to arguing over the causes or sources of the abuse in scientology, which is what Tamasin-SP tries to do. There are other threads that specifically cover that topic and I'll point you to them if you like.

Tamasin-SP will continue to attack Karen until Karen writes the "right" words that Tamasin-SP wants Karen to write. Until Karen and the people she hangs out with specifically attack LRon Hubbard, Tamasin-SP will continue to be upset with them. Until they talk about how evil LRon Hubbard was, she will call them liars, conspirators, etc. It is so important to Tamsin-SP to report specifically on incidents of abuse involving LRon Hubbard in order to prove how evil he was and get us all to agree with her. That is her agenda. That thread would be titled "Discussion of incidents of abuse in scientology that were specifically ordered by LRon Hubbard". That thread probably already exists. If not someone please start one.

There are plenty of threads here specifically about LRon Hubbard and what an evil man he was. PLENTY. I can point you to those too if you like and whoever wants to discuss that topic can discuss it. It just isn't the topic of this particular thread. Karen stated early on that she chooses not to go there. That is specifically what enrages Tamasin-SP into attacking her.

If all threads here turned into discussion about any and all the abuse in scientology and how evil LRon was, the board would become a monotonous monoculture of all the same threads and would be boring imo. I think it's a good idea to keep threads subjectively separate.

Anyone here can start a thread as a platform to get out specific stories that are important to them. Karen should be allowed to do that without personal attacks from Tamasin-SP. What T-SP is doing is against board rules imo.
“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.”
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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Pussy Riot » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:32 am

Don Carlo wrote:Problem 1: Tamasin repeatedly tries to diminish Karen's loss of her son as "just one" person when so many had suffered. This is cruel. I deleted the phrase where Tamasin did this in the last day or two, in the off-topic area where I had sent one of Tamasin's earlier posts. This is the underlying problem of the interruptions on The Gold Base abuses thread, that Miscavige denunciation by Karen isn't good enough for Tamasin.
Problem 2: Freedom of speech includes not being MADE to denounce your own private beliefs. Even authoritarian systems usually leave private thoughts alone. It's The Hole in Sea Org that makes people confess that they weren't pure enough, and makes them say things against themselves. Tamasin acts like Karen can never be good enough until Karen says exactly what Tamasin wants, which is a massive essay on the badness of LRH and of Karen's badness and wrongness for neglecting this topic.

If you disagree here, it is up to you to OUTWRITE the other person preferably with historical fact, but that person is not bad and wrong just for having a different set of priorities.
It is completely wrong to diminish Karen#1's loss of her son. I completely agree with you on that point.

I understand that Karen#1 and tamasin-sp disagree about how bad Hubbard was. I don't think it's about having different priorities really. It's more an actual disagreement about scientology abuse. And if tamasin-sp's going to "outwrite" Karen#1 on that, as you say she should, then she needs to be allowed to refer to Hubbard's abuses. Otherwise it would be as though the thread was existing in a sort of parallel universe where scientology abuses were a recent phenomenon, nothing to do with Hubbard. Given tamasin-sp's past it's understandable that such a fairy-tale picture of scientology would make her pretty cross. She suffered the reality and if people aren't acknowledging that reality then that must be pretty hard to bear. I can understand that someone whose suffering was diminished like that would retaliate by diminishing other people's suffering.

Trying to get people to acknowledge the abuse you've suffered isn't like being an authoritarian dictator trying to police people's thoughts. That's a false analogy in my view. Wanting recognition and wanting control are different.

If she can't make her case by referring to abuses under Hubbard how is tamasin-sp supposed to "outwrite" Karen#1? (Edit.) You say she should outwrite her "with historical fact" but you also say tamasin-sp can't post about Hubbard because it's too historical, not recent enough! That's a catch 22 if ever I saw one.

Dorothy thanks for your welcome. I think some of the points I've said to Don Carlo answer some of what you say too.
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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Don Carlo » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:45 am

She needs to start her own thread which then she could tell her story. She has poisoned her relations with Karen and she needs to get off of THIS thread, since every post she makes here is heavy with negativity about Karen's priorities.

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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Pussy Riot » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:51 am

Maybe. Or maybe she needs to tell "her story" (not how I would describe it) to the people she thinks most need to hear it. But probably she knows what she needs or wants to do better than you or I.
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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Dorothy » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:57 am

Pussy Riot wrote:It's more an actual disagreement about scientology abuse.
Good, it sounds like you get it then.

I don't think Karen has a "fairy tale" picture of scientology at all. Failing to call a man evil does not equal fairy tale. Some people choose a middle path on the subject instead of polarizing all the way in one direction or the other. It's actually pretty typical for ex scientologists to pendulum swing from "Hubbard is Great" quickly to "Hubbard is Evil". It's often a knee-jerk reaction. Some will choose to discuss it and some won't. T-SP has unlimited opportunities to discuss that topic if she wants. She does not have to turn Karen's thread into an argument about that.

That argument is psychological, philosophical and sociological in nature. It involves historical forensics, historiography, etc. That is not what the thread is about.

Here's an example of how that topic is so different from what this thread is for:

The Cause(s) of the Abuse in Scientology Organizations
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=45019

If that's a topic you're interested in, maybe you could discuss it with T-SP and others, there.
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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Pussy Riot » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:13 am

I don't think Karen#1 has a "fairy tale picture" either. It's the thread that would be/is like a fairy tale if all reference to Hubbard's abuses is removed. Maybe "fairy tale picture" isn't quite the right expression. I meant something like the thread would have an air of unreality. Maybe "surreality" is the right word. (I don't mean to diminish all the valuable information gathered in the thread.)

I don't want to try to discuss the causes of abuse in scientology. I'll happily leave that to people who understand historical forensics, whatever they are.

I really just wanted to say that I think tamasin-sp (and anyone else) should be allowed to contribute accounts of abuse not occurring at Int Base to this thread. Especially people who've suffered that abuse. They shouldn't be silenced (or told to tell it to someone else, somewhere else.)
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Re: Discussion of Abuses at Int Base, Riverside

Post by Demented LRH » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:53 pm

We could start a separate thread, Abuses Committed by LRH, or something like that. I do not want to start it because I am not one of his victims, but anyone who was victimized by CoS during the LRH years could do it.

I think that the Taiwanese girl will be fine -- although she was forced to take Seratonin, her “treatment” did not last long; soon the effects of the drug will wear off.
“This OT shit is driving me insane. On a positive side, I laugh a lot these days because I’m at a funny farm.”
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L. Ron Hubbard era un maestro de masturbacion fisica y mental.

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