Yes, definitely. I know someone who would have loved to join Sea Org, but his early usage of LSD and peyote excluded him. This was back in the seventies, I believe.

I have often wondered about this; was it to protect co$ from being liable for mental breakdowns they feared from those who used mind-altering drugs? They don't seem to mind having those things happening now, and that's supposed to be with people who have NOT used mind-altering drugs. Or, was it to avoid having a psychotic person asserting to the general public to be a clam, thus bad PR - all the time KNOWING they had no solutions for psychosis?

LSD is deeply tied in to the psych conspiracy. Hubbard wrote a Professional Auditor's Bulletin no. 62, 30 September 1955, entitled "Psychiatrists" (can be found in the red volumes no. II) Some quotes:

"Neatly all the backlash in society against Dianetics and Scientology has a common source -- the psychiatrist-psychologist-psychoanalyst clique. Their patter doesn't vary. Behind the bulwark of authority these people, when asked about you, an auditor, or about the subject or about me, usually say that it is a hoax and that you or I are really just out of an institution for the insane.

Wherever some auditor stupidly decides to co-operate with psychiatrists, he has been gobbled up very quickly. One cannot co-operate with them any more than he can "do business with Hitler.""

"I could tell you about long strings of psychotics run in on the Foundation and the Association, sent in to us by psychiatrists who then, using LSD and pain-drug-hypnosis, spun them and told everyone Dianetics and Scientology drove people insane."

"Now, not to scare you but to inform you, psychiatry has armed itself with several new drugs. One of these, LSD, has the total goal of driving persons insane for 15 to 25 hours -- JUST long enough to convince people that your auditing spun the preclear. When you see a process solve a case, and then the case spins, don't even bother to look for the needle mark on the pc."


Clearly, he had already by this time established the psychs as the scapegoat on which to blame all scientology's problems, and LSD as the bad drug.

If there truly existed any such "LSD cases sent in by psychiatrists", who knows?

Freeborn,

Distilled water is flat. I don't fear fluoride in my tap water. The problem is that, as an adult, I brush my teeth quite well and use a fluoridated toothpaste. My children also brush their teeth but not necessarily so good. The fluoride given to them before they had teeth helps (I believe) to strengthen those teeth while forming inside the body. Yes, I know the baby teeth are already there at birth but the permanent teeth are not and begin to form after birth.

I think, from what I have read by the American Dental Association, that ingested fluoride improves the strength of those forming teeth.

Fluoride in toothpaste is surface only and doesn't even get below the gumline, whereas ingested fluoride does.

As I said before, this is a sore area for some and I have read much of the information put out by the anti-fluoride campaigners. I simply prefer the info put out by ADA as it has studies performed under conditions that can be replicated.

My grandfather, BTW, was one of those people that grew up where the water was fluoridated naturally, thus leading to the artificial fluoridation of our municipal water. He no longer has all of his teeth, but he is 88 years old and never flossed. He has, however, no significant health problems. My grandmother, same age, same home town, has health problems that can only be attributed to old age. Both see and hear perfectly and have all their faculties. My grandfather built the house in which he currently lives 5 years ago, gardens most all of his vegetables annually and my grandmother cans them each harvest.

My point is, even though not conducted by scientific method, my grandparents have had ingested fluoride all their lives as well as me, my siblings and all of our relatives after said grandparents. No one shows any of the adverse effects feared by the anti-fluoride people.

This is the most I have ever discussed the subject. I believe in fluoride, have seen evidence it works well for our children's dental health for a lifetime and give it to my children in the form of our tap water and our toothpaste. However, if someone is totally against its use, I believe they should do what they feel is best. It is sad to me when I see people doing such things based on fear instead of rational thought and research. Fluoride in our municipal water supply has proven overwhelmingly positive. It is sad to me that there are people out there that believe it is a big "Fluoride Conspiracy" to...do what? I feel the same about immunizations. Those that don't immunize their kids out of fear, instead of based on years of scientific research and the advice of their doctors (who only spent countless years in school and internships) because they somehow think they know better. Those that truly do so because of religious beliefs are better protected when the rest of us do the right thing.

I had the fluoride argument with Ron is Great in the other thread mentioned above.

Blondie

Another question: If you have taken "psych drugs" or street drugs, how high a level can you attain in COS?

Just think of all those people peeing upstream of the water supply of Los Angeles. How many are taking lots of medications? How many are doing heroin, LSD, cocaine?

This topic won't go away. Look at all the researchers working on this:
http://www.ngwa.org/education/pharmconf.html

It will become widely talked about, even in orgs. If COS decides to keep around all the Sea Org staff who have been drinking these "micro-quantities" of street drugs and "psych drugs" over the years, how will they "purify" them. Will they require new Purification Rundowns? Isn't that "squirreling" the tech? And what if you keep cooking with tap water? With every meal you are freshly contaminated. Do you have to spend two hours a day in saunas guzzling blobs of oil?

What if they decided to accept the micro-doses, and not require extra purification routines? Maybe they'd start applying logic to other bits of COS dogma. But how can they rant about drugs while allowing ANY inside their body? If fear of drugs is a major tenet, wouldn't it be tiresome for a new member to feel perpetually contaminated?

Suppose they told Sea Org staff to just take extra vitamins. Does that mean staff who NEED medication would be allowed to take that medicine and purify himself with a little vitamin. Sounds squirrelly to me!!!

Maybe COS would send all Sea Org staff off to a fresh Purification Rundown, then make everyone drink and cook with expensive spring water. I wonder if the staff would have to keep their mouth away from the water when they are taking a shower? And what about rice, soft drinks, coffee, tea, which are usually made with tap water? What about the final tap water rinse on the dishes? What about swimming pools? Plus, since most sewage empties into the ocean, the Pacific Ocean and the Gulf of Mexico would ALSO have micro-pollutants. Will ocean bathing be banned by COS? Imagine Northern Scientologists coming to Clearwater in November and being forbidden to use the pools or swim in the bathtub-warm Gulf of Mexico!

Catarina: Why would the same people who call the tech a hoax turn around and SEND their patients for help to the cult? My theory about why LRH hated psychs is that they couldn't help HIM.

Blondie: Most people agree that you have to acquire a taste for distilled (or reverse-osmosis) water. Some people use it exclusively for coffee, rice, orange juice, etc., as it does seem to make them better. In an economy measure, I usually add water to juice, to make it go farther; as a result, all restaurant drinks seem extremely sweet to me, and fries are much too salty - because I'm used to it another way. But your first taste of distilled water, after a lifetime of lots of salt, sugar, pepper, cigarettes, hot coffee, and well or "spring" water, may seem "flat," I guess. How well you acclimate your taste buds to "flat" water depends on how much you want what "runs down" into you to be "purified."

For a couple of years, we got a rent-free house on a huge old farm that had a cistern. Even though the crawdads who lived in the cistern were apparently very clean critters, we decided not to drink the tap water. Eventually, I got to where I prefer distilled water, even for drinking plain. I also have lived in New York and Philadelphia for several years, and I NEVER got used to the "city" water. Chicago water is nasty, too. No wonder they put lemon juice in it. Hey, there's an idea - lemon-flavored second-hand Prozac.

I don't have any particular axe to grind about the fluoride issue, or the iodized salt issue, or the anyotherkind of issue, where it boils down to arguments that can be valid on both sides or invalid on both sides. Often these things get argued about because of people who dislike Big Brother deciding to make us do things without our permission. (These same people don't seem to suffer much from making me breathe their exhaled smoke, but that's an issue for another message board, I guess.) Of all the "stuff" in municipal water, fluoride is not the worst. Dissolved toilet paper comes to mind. Somehow, even heavily chlorinated pee, snot, and sweat don't appeal to me, not even to swim in. (Purposely crude!) And SOAP! The purpose of soap is break up the particles of grease and oil, so they will mix with water. I've known people who routinely pour bacon grease, baby oil, and even used automotive oil into drains. Even if you don't do that intentionally, pause and reflect on what your dishwasher does with stuff like that. Laundry and dishwasher powders are so powerful that a thimble-size bit of powder on your wet hand will generate HEAT; try it. Someone, somewhere will drink that. Maybe even YOU! Whether your kitchen, bathroom, garage, or high school chem lab drain goes to a city water treatment plant or into your neighbor's well is immaterial, because you will drink it eventually, unless you purify the water first.

Now, to put this into perspective, amounts of this trash are so minute as to be harmless to all but the most sensitive souls. And most people have an operating liver. But if you had a dinner and invited someone allergic to peanuts, would you put "just a smidgeon" of peanut oil into the salad dressing? Not if you wanted all your dinner guests to go home alive. Most humans are pretty tough. But a few are not. The anti-fluoride people base most of their arguments on the relatively few fragile people to whom 1 ppb might be as powerful as whatever fluoride it takes to kill a rat.

But let's put all this stuff up on the board frequently, so the clams might see it and wonder whether they're being Prozacked or Ritalined without their knowledge! Has anyone heard that more and more people are becoming infertile from drinking all the excreted birth control chemicals?

Freeborn,

I've heard you can literally ingest enough of any substance to kill you. Vitamins, taken at Co$ levels are dangerous. The same vitamins I give my children each morning are poisonous if ingested in large doses and, therefore, come with a childproof cap.

I wanted to know if it is possible to ingest, in one sitting, enough pizza to kill you.

I neither agree or disagree with anything you wrote and think it is an individual thing.

The one thing I think people might be missing, those that drink "bottled" water, not distilled or reverse osmosis, is that water comes from a source that is likely as contaminated as our own city water. I might be willing to try distilled water, but think it is silly to pay so much money for something I get virtually free. (I don't pay for water where I live-Landlord does.) Now, if I was on that show Survivor, I would be boiling the heck out of my water twice over! Yuck!

Blondie

My specific question is, can you become "Clear" if you've ingested "psych drugs?" Can you do any of the OT levels? How high can a person go in the scam if he or she "did" street drugs?

To be consistent, the next Scientology priority should be to support more water-quality research and work to improve water treatment plants. How can they "clear the planet" if they can't "clear the water?"

Don Carlo, your last statement rates my AMEN!

The way you can become "clear" if you ingest psych drugs, is to not KNOW you ingested them, thus would be unable to lie about it. If the e-meter is a simple lie detector, and a person knows how to beat it, as some do, he could go into auditing sessions absolutely phosphorescent with drugs and still reach "clear." It's not likely to happen, of course, but drinking recycled drugs would not be known.

So I think it's our duty on this board to inform all the obedient little robots that they're seriously contaminated and must therefore stop wasting their time on auditing and OT levels.

Don Carlo,

Street drugs do not stop you from going Clear and OT. I know of several people who started out getting treatment at Narconon and eventually made OT levels (some all the way to OT VIII). (One reverted to heroin abuse well after Clear)

LSD and PCP stop you from being eligible for the Sea Org. You can still be staff at a local (non-SO) org. You can still pay for your Bridge, no problem. There are several "drug handlings" done along the way: Purification Rundown, Scientology Drug RD, New Era Dianetics Drug RD, OT IV which is a drug RD for your BTs.

(Then of course, if you get in trouble with OSA and get SP declared, it doesn't matter if you have stayed perfectly clean for fifteen years and have gone through every drug handling the CoS has to offer, plus all the OT levels, your declare will still say you're a druggie - happened to someone I know. The CoS obviously doesn't quite believe in the power of the tech. )

People who have taken "psych drugs" (incl. antidepressants, sleeping pills, sedatives) or have been getting care at a psychiatric clinic (even if just for one night) are not supposed to be accepted for auditing, and would not be able to go Clear and OT at an org. However, there used to be a possibility to write a petition to the org, where such a person gave up all rights to refunds or to suing the org (some former psych patients do have a bit of money they need to be "cleared" of...) As I recall, they could still have problems to be accepted for OT levels, depending on how heavy the "psych treatment" had been.

It's quite possible they are stricter nowadays on not accepting takers of psych drugs for auditing. They can still do courses, though, and be told to find somebody to co-audit with in private (not in the org). They would not qualify for Sea Org.

As Freeborn said - the key is that the person has to know and honestly tell about having taken the drug.

And I don't know exactly where the line would be drawn - isn't it usual for people to get sedatives before major surgery, for example? There are medical drugs which are used for both psychiatric and non-psychiatric conditions - an anti-epileptic such as Tegretol is used to control seizures (a neurological condition) but also as a mood stabilizer in for example bi-polar disorder. This is where Tory Bezazian had trouble - the org suddenly decided that her anti-seizure treatment was an evil psych drug. Later, this decision was reversed. The point is of course that in modern medicine, there is increasing knowledge of the physical body dysfunctions that are associated with psychiatric conditions, and there is no sharp distinction between body and mind. It's all extremely hard to align with the CoS world view.

Freeborn said "Why would the same people who call the tech a hoax turn around and SEND their patients for help to the cult?"

Because they are EvilPsychlos who plot to destroy mankind - they didn't send people to the org to get help, they sent them there with the sole intention of making trouble for Scientology, which they perceived as a threat to the intergalactic psych conspiracy. If you believe Hubbard, that is.

"My theory about why LRH hated psychs is that they couldn't help HIM."

Agreed. They didn't help him get rid of his delusions (he asked for but never got psychiatric treatment), and then they didn't accept those delusions were real (he strived for but never got public acceptance from the medical and psychiatric professions). Of course he hated them.

Catarina wrote: "People who have taken "psych drugs" (incl. antidepressants, sleeping pills, sedatives) or have been getting care at a psychiatric clinic (even if just for one night) are not supposed to be accepted for auditing, and would not be able to go Clear and OT at an org. However, there used to be a possibility to write a petition to the org, where such a person gave up all rights to refunds or to suing the org (some former psych patients do have a bit of money they need to be "cleared" of...)"

Petitions are still in use as far as I know - with large contributions of time and money, you can buy your way to OT heaven despite a psych history. A person who has been institutionalized pretty much won't get auditing, ever - I don't know of a single case where that was allowed, anyway. They're told to train.

There were cases where the person had taken psych drugs without having been in the care of a psych at the time, such as being prescribed the meds by a family doctor - there were a few exceptions made in situations like that and the person was not always considered to be an illegal pc as a result.

Nowhere did Hubbard define precisely how long a person would have to take psych drugs for them to be considered an illegal pc, so there are people on services in one org who would never be allowed services in another because it's largely left up to the case supervisor to determine how much is too much. You'd think that with something so important he would have given specifics, wouldn't you? Of course, you could take that a step or two further and wonder how a man so dedicated to saving the world could turn his back on people who have fallen prey to the vilest SPs ever to hit the whole track. But then I guess they must have deserved it, done something to pull it in - and nobody likes a victim in Scn. Well, that's not exactly true. CCHR likes victims because they can use them to wage war against the mental health profession at large and create good PR for Scn in the media by exploiting said victims and their stories.

Catarina is spot on with her witty observation that some psych patients need to be cleared of their money - there were a couple of cases of a person having *extensive* psych history - several years of it - and still being accepted for services with only a cursory notation of their psych history and no real string pull done to determine whether or not they fall into the category of "illegal pc" - however in both instances that I know of, those people were millionaires...

Freeborn wrote: "Yes, definitely. I know someone who would have loved to join Sea Org, but his early usage of LSD and peyote excluded him. This was back in the seventies, I believe."

They switched their approach on this in the 90's and the question became "Okay, so you took acid. But did you *hallucinate*??" Then you were shown the definition of hallucination in the Tech dictionary which basically says that if you hallucinate you wouldn't *know* that you were hallucinating.

I dropped acid a time or two when I was a teen. I saw lots of freaky crap - but I knew what I was seeing was a result of the drug I had taken. According to the recruiter I had this long, drawn out conversation with, I didn't hallucinate per the definition and so I was qualed for the SO.

Did a fat wallet help in that qualification for SO?!

I took Prozac until everything I saw had a blue tinge. This was 13.6 million years ago on another planet. Does this disqualify me for Scientological salvation?

Also I think maybe at one point during the history of the universe--er, I mean the whole track--I was actually two people instead of one. This perhaps is an error that can be corrected through a properly administered dose of LSD and an afternoon listening to Pink Floyd, so long as I ask an ashtray over and over to stand up and sit down.

Ron Is Xenu: Nah...you had a different body back then, and when it died, all the toxic stuff stayed with it. Oops, I guess that makes it unnecessary to audit body thetans. I don't know. I'm terribly confused.