Gee, you sound like a scientologist. Evidence of absence doesn't always equate to absence of evidence.

Sure sounds like your saying in wogonese what is true for you is true for you as you observed it



LOL. Just leik you saw OSA on martyrs blog and started flailing your arms wildly, only to then be told by me that it was me and not OSA OSA OSA.


Martyr shows exactly what it is that makes Scientology itself the problem and not the church.
WTG martyr and WTG his arse-kissing sycophants.

Of course individuals use parts of scientology to justify abuse. I've seen it with my own eyes.

This is true of any ideologically driven group (including your own group), that ideas justify actions. Christians have used parts of the bible to justify war, genocide, beating children, slavery, etc. Look at what some Muslims use the Quran to justify. Should we now force all Christians to repudiate the guilty Biblical passages and strike them from the Bible? Or should we mandate that: Christians may no longer use any part of the Bible as an excuse or justification for committing crimes or abusing others (?).

Regarding scientology: which approach do you think would more effectively discourage abuse?

Caroline and Gerry: your battle against Indies (imo) = Ideology v. Ideology:


The mod named this thread "Discussion of..." and I understand why you took "discussion" out of the title: because you never actually discuss anything. What you do is you promote your own ideology (per the description above). What I see are attempts to recruit and gain support for a movement, Gerry and Caroline's movement that is based on your ideology and separate from critics, OG, Anons, etc.. I have observed your actions (as clues to the objectives of your movement) to be something along these lines:

1. Gain support from the general public for Gerry’s position regarding his extensive legal history and case(s). Anyone not "in concert” with Gerry receives very specific treatment usually including one or more of the following: ignored, accused of further victimizing you and Gerry, accused of being a liar, implied they are OSA, or simply put down, etc.

2. Through that support, get the public to help you put pressure on Marty to participate in legal maneuvers to try to reverse legal rulings in Gerry’s case. This pressure includes a campaign to profile Marty as an abuser today, but based on his actions from the past.

3. Create support for the Gerry/Caroline ideological perspective that (parts of) scientology itself are the cause of much or all of the abuses that occur at Int Base and elsewhere in scientology. This position requires that individuals (indies, exes, critics) “admit” that scientology ideology is the true cause (the why) and renounce the sections that are mandated to be renounced by Gerry and Caroline’s movement. Example:

This ^ is your response to someone for failing to be "in concert" with Gerry.

4. The flavor of your movement is a vision of the future where the abuses in scientology will only be stopped or prevented if those who forward scientology as a helpful practice renounce and delete an entire section of the canon that is deemed ideologically corrupt (from Gerry and Caroline’s perspective). Somehow this ideological position supports Gerry's legal goals, but I'm not sure how exactly.

Because Gerry and Caroline’s movement is (imo) ideological in nature, I don’t see it as much different from Marty’s movement. It is a self-serving movement that claims to be for the good of everyone. That is why I call your ongoing battle: Ideology v. Ideology.

On the other hand, I have seen the majority of critics, exes and OG support the idea that the various factions of the critics' movement work together to end the very real abuses of scientology. For example:



Because the Gerry/Caroline movement is ideologically at odds with this consensus and what the different groups have in common, I reiterate:

Supporting Indies is ideologically at odds with the Gerry/Caroline movement. It is seen as an enemy activity. Therefore perpetrators must be squashed, guilty persons labelled "sympathizer", "dupe", "apologist", "scientologist", "sycophant", "liar", etc., by you and persons you have convinced to join your movement.

There's no crime in starting your own ideological movement. What I take issue with is pretending to be something you are not, such as "for the public good". Your movement goals have little to do with my personal goal for the larger critics movement, which is more along the lines of what Graham Berry (see above quote) and many others have said/written. It's not that I don't support you and Gerry as victims of scientology same as I support Indies as victims of scientology, but I can't join or support your ideological movement because I am not "in concert" with Gerry, which to me equals not "marching in lock step" with Gerry thus making me ineligible to join your movement anyway even if I wanted to.

In addition to the above I am not "in concert" with Gerry because I was unable to get some very important questions answered about several of his (unsubstantiated) claims regarding his legal cases. I was dismissed in much the same way Marty dismisses people from his blog who ask questions he cannot or will not answer. I did not buy the excuse that you'll be fined $10,000 for every question of mine which you answer. I thought that was hilarious. It was so funny, readers here actually thought you were playing a game!

Regarding the title of this thread, anyone claiming to know the "source and causes of Scientology abuses around the world", or the source and causes of any "abuses around the world", I say is a charlatan same as LRon, because that is exactly what he claimed to know!


What makes someone abuse, do evil, harm others, is not yet fully known. Caroline, apparently, according to you, you yourself abused people when you worked for OSA. In your point of view, was it scientology ideology (Fair game, SP Doctrine) that made you, or was the cause of you committing those acts?

Dorothy, your post is very lucid, powerful, and spot on.

What we have in the Armstrong Agenda is an ideology that, while laudably exposing Scientology's lies, simultaneously perpetuates the lie that Gerry is somehow a victim for having signed a gag agreement for which Scientology paid him $800,000. Gerry is thus in the odd position of perpetuating his big lie in order to expose Scientology's bigger lies.


/////

Your reaction is not unusual. However, Scientology calculates their "liquidated damages" at $50,000 per utterance, per recipient, not $10,000 as you say. Scientology's rep Lynn Farny did the math in depo in Armstrong 4:



Also see YouTube: Gerry Armstrong, Berlin 17. Sept. 2011
(Many thanks to DxxAnonymous.)

Simply expecting me to watch a two hour promo piece for the Gerry/Caroline movement is not a helpful response nor an acceptable contribution to a discussion. Perhaps you could supply me with excerpts that are relevant to the "discussion" thread, or a transcript that I can skim for relevance... I won't hold my breath.

Back on topic: "Source and causes of scientology abuse around the world".


I’m glad to hear you are no longer abusing people. If rejecting Hubbard’s tech is what it took to get you to stop abusing people, I suppose that is still a good thing. What concerns me is that you have taken no personal responsibility for your actions. Honestly I’d be suspicious of you for that. Advocating that you take at least some or part of the responsibility does not come from scientology doctrine. It comes from a perspective that as a human being, you should have enough empathy to avoid hurting others, even if you’re indoctrinated to harm others. This is not just my view, it is the view of the International Criminal Court as well when it deals with crimes against humanity, globally.

In 2002 the ICC was formed and it adopted findings in part from the Nuremberg Tribunals that "redefined the force of norms in groups and organizations", for humanity in general. This redefinition covers three main issues:

1. “Members of organizations are responsible for knowing what formal ends are being served by their acts… Goal displacement (excessive focus on the rules) can no longer be used as a moral or legal defense of the ultimate outcomes of one’s acts.”

2.”Members of organizations who are required to act in functionally rational ways to achieve formally irrational ends have the legal right and the moral duty to disobey orders.”

3. “Members of organizations, and members of societies in which the organizations operate, are responsible for knowing what the ultimate goals are and for amending them if they are irrational… organizations are subject to the will of the people, not the other way around.”

(Paraphrased from Social Change by Jay Weinstein, 2010)

Translation: “I was ordered, brainwashed, mind-controlled” or otherwise indoctrinated or coerced into committing immoral acts is no longer acceptable as an excuse. It was not acceptable for Adolf Eichmann at the Nuremberg trials and it will not be acceptable when David Miscavige or any scientologist who is placed in front of a Jury for violations of human rights, abuse, human trafficking, etc. It does not matter (at least to the ICC) that 65% of humans will inflict pain upon another human simply because they are ordered to do so (see Stanford Prison Experiment).

I have little interest in hearing Marty Rathbun or any other Indie announce that he repudiates SP Doctrine because it is what convinced him and drove him to be a bully, a criminal and to abuse people. I would trust him a whole lot more if he confronted the inherent flaw within himself, within every human being, to potentially fail to show empathy towards the suffering of another human being, and to fail to act upon that empathy.

Whether the tech "works" or not is another subject. All the FPRD in the world is no guarantee that a person will do the right thing in any situation. But to say that "the tech" is the source and cause of the abuse is the same as selling snake oil to me.

ditto post

I am in concert with Caroline and Gerry and I'll tell you for why. I do not condone the fact that Gerry took $800,000 to keep quiet about Scientology. No one should keep quiet about the abuse that was administered under the name of L. Ron Hubbard and there was plenty of it, long before indies, freezoners were ever even heard of.

However I can understand why he took the money and also why his conscience got the better of him.

When I left the sea org in 1969, at the age of 12 years old, I possessed one medium sized suitcase, my whole life thus so far and an e-meter which I had been persuaded I needed and in order to maintain the impression , I was coming back, I indeed had to buy it. I didn't even have enough money to pay the full fare to the taxi driver from the airport to my new home. And, I was lucky, to have some kind of a home to go to, even if it was a scientologist one. Many did not.

Whilst we are on the whole Indie/freezone thing, there are videos of Independent Mike Rinder, whilst still supposedly totally embroiled in Scientology creating a set up of Gerald Armstrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gm7ATqW4p0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bY_ZEXMai4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExmUOIc3Om0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLpAMRvufIc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcjjZbQRTSU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcjjZbQRTSU

These videos are difficult watching, as they are old and difficult to keep abreast of, however, I recommend if you are interested in this, then perseverance is the order of the day.

My question at this point has to be 'WHY did Scientology feel the need to give Gerry Armstrong $800,000 in the first place?' FOR SILENCE!

I never got offered anything, I was a 12 year old kid and was threatened with a mental institution and because of all the shit I endured aboard the Apollo, I believed that. I'd just gotten myself out of one mental institution, did I really want to go to another one?As it happens, I did, sort of. But, on reflection, it was far better than Hubbard's floating mental institution.

Gerald Armstrong was married to my best friend's sister, my best friend, her sister and brother spent decades in this mentally, manipulated institution. I'm sorry, but we are talking people's lives here and how many more lives have to be ruined because you choose to be SILENT? I know you are reading, I can't do this on my own. I'm trying, but I need backup!

Remember, the Royal Family?

I am starting to wonder, just how many people were paid to keep SILENT! And, how much? Let's all keep silent, we will talk about the abuse of David Miscavige, but, LRH, pfttt - too much money involved?How much money was paid to keep this charade going on?Billion year contract, or billions of $ made to live a life of prosperity, flourish and prosper. Hope you can sleep at night!

I can, because I work god damned hard to earn my money, it's hard but it's honest. How hard is it to let mere mortals suffer, because to tell the truth means opening up an entire lifetime of perpetuated lies?It is not your fault, I know this, but, it will be if you don't speak out.

How do you think I feel, having kept silent for 38 years?

tamasin-sp:

I would love nothing more than to see the people who committed the crimes and abuse against you as a child- go to trial and answer for their actions. That includes LRon if he were alive.

In that perfect world though, if it were to happen, and if I were sitting on the Jury, I dk if I could accept an excuse such as the one Caroline gives, that "the tech" made them do it. What would be LRon's excuse? What if he claimed "in my black magic days, someone put a spell on me and made me do all those crazy things". As a victim, would that make you happy?

I was in scientology too, for 20+ years. I admit to having been indoctrinated, mind-controlled, etc. So I understand what you're talking about. Accepting the hush money, such as the 800K Gerry accepted, is nothing more than a continuation of the abuse. To then take no responsibility for it or otherwise failing to accept the truth of one's actions, is unacceptable in my opinion.

This is a straightforward contract into which Mr. Armstrong entered. The agreement calls for liquidated damages of $50,000 for each breach of contract:


ref: http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50k/legal/a1/625.php

/////

In my heart of hearts I know that what happened to me as a child is unforgivable, in the name of a supposed religion, which I might add it never was in my day.

I struggle continually with thoughts about my half sister and her children, whom I gather are all in the sea org of which I was once a member of.

I listen and watch all the latest goings on in this organization and am continually in despair because people like Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder get continual recognition as being the forefront in this alms against abuse in Scientology.They perpetuated the abuse for years. Years, and Years.And, yet suddenly they are the new kids on the block.

And, we all have to believe them.

What utter bollachs!

Having seen Sponges thread onhttp://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=41930 I am of the opinion that this is all a waste of time.

I wish it wasn't, but it is.

Scientology, is shit, from the bowels of the ship and up and onto the OT levels and whilst you are up there on Target 2, LRH, I sincerely hope every single body thetan attaches itself to you for the next billion years.

There is no justice in this world, because the Scientologists have taken it over.

My dear lady, did you notice that those papers you linked to (Sponge's post) are from 1998? 14 years ago? Scientology has shrunk to less than half it's size since then. I'm one of a group of people who left since then. Scientology has virtually no influence in the world. It is so tiny, compared to other groups, there are so few scientologists, that it is scientology that hardly matters.

But there are people still at Int Base and other sea org outposts that have RPFs and places where sea org members can still be held against their will, as well as other abuses that need more exposure. So don't despair over this. It's not worth it. Your story is important, so I hope you will keep talking about it and encourage others to do the same. And I would also encourage you to seek Justice, not revenge. Revenge was LRon's game.

deleted ditto post

Soderqvist1: Marty Rathbun claim that Gerry is responsible for his own victim hood!
Marty even claim that Gerry sold out to the enemy, a thing Marty himself will never do because he is not a victim or so he brags! But the thing is that according to Gerry’s talk at Berlin 1:38:56 Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder Fair Gamed him to sign this contract under duress so Marty and Mike is legally responsible for Gerry’s victim hood and want these to step forward and tell the court about their crime so Gerry can be free from his victim hood!
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.p ... ember-2011

Soderqvist1: this also a piece of cake!
The offender is always responsible for his crime never the victim!
And it doesn’t matter if the Nazi claim that he only obeyed order, or he was brainwashed to do the act, because of his Age of Majority he is always responsible for what law he broke! But I think that nobody will claim that the Nazism is innocent to the Holocaust but on the other hand it is not possible to prosecute a ideology for the simple reason that it is not a juridical person, but it is quite possible to prosecute the authors for the plotting and instigating crimes against humanity as they did at the Nuremberg Trials. With the same way of reasoning it is possible hold L. Ron Hubbard responsible for his act if Caroline Letkeman or Marty Rathbun was instigated by Hubbard to do their crimes. Nazism defeated democracy in Germany because Hitler rose to power by selection and stayed at power because of his coup, and therefore Nazism is outlawed in Germany since every Expression of it is forbidden in order to prevent this coup to ever happen again, and same it is possible in principle to do with Scientology!
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/1 ... fair-game/

Dear Caroline, and Gerry:

I watched Gerry’s 2 hour video, I transcribed some parts that apply directly to this topic (source and causes of abuse in scientology), and i slept on this.



After watching Gerry tell his story, seeing him break down and cry, I can understand why and how Gerry would come to such conclusions about the entire subject of scientology. It is his experience, and he is being true to that experience. I feel very bad for Gerry and what he’s been through. I agree he had one or more psychopathic hounds and goons paid to terrorize him, on his tail who were following orders from or paid by the “group”. But let me clarify that. In scientology there are many groups within groups. When I say group, I do not mean the larger group of “scientologists”. I mean the tiny Gestapo-like group (Guardian’s Office, OSA) within the larger Jesuit-style organization called sea org, within the larger, overall group of scientology members. 99.9% of scientologists don’t even know who Gerry is, and have never acted psychotically as Gerry describes.

This is a “true for you” situation, but not in a scientology sense, in a critical thinking sense. The inductive reasoning, empirical generalization that Gerry uses: "drawing a conclusion about a target population based on observing a sample population", is what Gerry observed for himself. Gerry makes other such leaps when he insists that Indies are (today) doing the same Loyalist Op that was done to him in 1981. Also when he says that (paraphrased) because Rex Fowler, OT 8 committed murder, it is quite possible that a psychotic scientologist might try to murder Gerry. Of course it is possible a psychotic scientologist might be capable of committing murder: scientologists are neither immune to psychosis nor morally superior, as they claim to be. But Gerry concludes that the cause of such an act would be due to psychosis being “installed” via "the tech". Such a conclusion turns every single scientologist into a potential "Manchurian Candidate" style murderer.

I never said I did not think Rathbun and Rinder should help Gerry, as he asks. They "should" do the right thing. But here’s the problem: due to the faulty thinking about scientology (overall), Gerry will always be an “SP”: one who spews generalities (Gerry’s above conclusions) about scientology and scientologists as a whole, across the world. An SP, according to LRon, is not someone who is just critical but who denies the rights of others. There is some truth to the fact that by disseminating these faulty conclusions, Gerry could be denying the rights of others. If the German government were to buy into Gerry’s conclusions about scientology and scientologists as a whole, imagine the outcome. Every single scientologist is seen as a psychopath in the making, the psychosis program having been necessarily “installed”, as Gerry (and Caroline) say, by the tech, in every single scientologist who has “ethics, tech and/or admin” applied to them. As long as Gerry maintains this position, Rathbun and Rinder, because of their belief system, will never be able to help him. So... I can see their point of view as well.

I also observed Gerry’s own remorse in having signed the unbelievable gag order. He knew what he was doing but he also did feel heavy pressure to sign it. I see that in hindsight he realizes he made an unbelievable mistake, but felt he had no choice given the circumstances. Unfortunately, I see Gerry making a mistake again, through faulty thinking (as outlined above) and cutting himself off from the possibly of getting some relief.

I realize that Gerry is not the only one who believes LRon was psychotic, and that all scientologists have “installed temporary psychosis” from having the tech applied to them. Personally, I think those people who share this faulty thinking and conclusion, are not helping Gerry one bit, but rather are helping to keep him from resolving his situation. That may be a tough pill for some to swallow, it's my observation, take it or leave it.

Thanks for laying this subject to rest for me personally. I apologize for calling the video a “promo piece”. That was hasty criticism on my part, and I no longer think it's true.