Hi, Cliff.

This is Susan/Glib. I guess you already know that though. It's been a while since you spent a good amount of time in front of my house, but something just reminded me of that, and I thought I would clear the air and say hi.

The thing is, Cliff, I don't begrudge you our anyone practicing their religion. I really don't. You can believe anything you want. I'm not even that bothered by your spying on me and watching my house for hours on end. I'm sure in your mind it was justified to stop my tearing down your church, or however it is that you see it.

But I don't really want to tear down your church. What I really would like is to see that people in the Sea Org are allowed to go home. That's it. Just go home every now and then, like on weekends say. Maybe even evenings. And by "go home" I mean "freely go home." Meaning, without having a minder go with them, and without being called every 5 minutes. That and having access to private phones and private mail would do it.

Would that be too much to ask? What would be so wrong with that? If the Church is so great, wouldn't Sea Org be anxious to return on their own? Wouldn't people be more likely to join the Sea Org if they could freely come and go, and have free contact with their families and friends?

There are other problems I see with the Church of Scientology, like the outrageous fund raising and focus on money, but I have a feeling that problem will solve itself. Obviously the abuse at places like Int Base is a big problem, too, but that would also solve itself if people were allowed phones and the ability to come and go.

I know you spent a lot of time looking for my crimes and for my ruin, but at the end of the day this is all I want. My crime is I would like some friends of mine to be able to see their daughters a couple times a year, and to be able to phone them. Is that so bad? Can't you continue to practice your religion, if these couple of things were changed? If no, why not?

Anyway, if you see this, Cliff, I'd love to have a chat with you. It seems like we could civilly discuss this matter. Wouldn't that be great if people within the church like yourself could meet with people on the outside who would like to see these things changed, and could come to an agreement? If not, why not? We're all just human beings, right? Trying to make the world a better place.

So, that's it. Drop me and email or pm. Or just think about it and work on it. Maybe if enough people bring it up, especially OTs like yourself, you would have the power and ability to make it happen. The result would be very positive for your church, as well as for the families who miss their kids.

Thanks in advance.

Hello Cliff,

I do not know who you are; currently I live in New York City, so, most likely, you won’t be able to talk to me. But some of your colleagues might be willing to meet me face-to-face if they have guts to do so.

When I was leaving in Los Angeles long time ago, I had a lovely meeting with a long-time Scientologist, Bob Stich. Perhaps, he could reveal the details of our meeting to you.

Hey Cliff, if you're reading this,
why don't you meet up for a nice lunch with Susan and Paulien Lombard? You'd have tons of familiar things to talk about and catch up on, and the lunch would be yummy.

Glib,

On the one hand it makes me extremely angry to imagine this supposedly "religious" person doing such a despicably creepy and borderline illegal activity like stalking you and your family at your home. I think if it were me, I would have called the police and placed harassment/stalking charges against this person and anyone else participating in such goon-like and downright UN-religious behavior.

One the other hand I truly respect your olive-branch/take-the-high-road approach.

Either way I'm sorry such a good person as yourself has to deal with this creepy and scary annoyance from a so-called "church". It's disgusting behavior, yet you are able to extend courtesy. It just proves even more what a good person you truly are.

I personally want to thank you for sticking around here at clambake for so long, for all the work you've done as a critic, as well as for moderating as wonderfully as you do.

Thank you.

Great letter, Glib. I took the opportunity to send your letter directly to Clif on his Facebook page. I'm sure he will enjoy reading it.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001370643248

Clif is a musician & member of the Tustin Chamber of Commerce. He sang at a fundraiser for the Chamber last January. Perhaps, the Tustin Chamber of Commerce might like to know what an esteemed member of their club does in his spare time. Did I send the link to the Chamber? Oops!



https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tustin-C ... 67?sk=wall

If you ever need to call the police, Glib....

Clifton B. Miller
130 Oval Road, #1
Irvine, CA 92604
(949) 551-5456 (condo was put up for sale in June 2011; listing was pulled on February 2, 2012).

Smurf,
Where does it say that a member of the chamber cant also be a stalker? LOL Great PR for the city and for the chamber!

I bet the Orange County Register would be interested in this. I posted it on their Facebook page, but they deleted it.

https://www.facebook.com/ocregister?sk=wall

Sherri Munsey
Executive Director
Email
smunsey@tustinchamber.org

Sherri Munsey
Executive Director
Email smunsey@tustinchamber.org

I'mglib, wherever you and members of your family work, look around at the other people working there with a critical eye. $cientology's office of special affairs (OSA) sends people into places to watch and report on what they see. This happens. I'm not being paranoid. (Unless you use Jay Leno's new definition for paranoid: "someone who has all the facts." (OK, I may not have all the facts but I know OSA does that.))

What do you do if you detect such a person? Try using Steven Hassan's technique from Releasing the Bonds. It would be really satisfying if you deprogrammed everyone they sent to watch you, and they walked away from $cientology.

I don't want to get Cliff negative attention with the chamber of commerce. I don't want his business hurt, or have him bothered at his home or on Facebook.

I wasn't harmed by the spying. I don't want revenge.

It's just, well, strange for a church, as Dorothy said.

I agree with Wieber that Cliff should check out the books that Wieber suggests. I am sure Cliff didn't get into the church, and get to the level on the bridge (I think OT5) where he is to end up sitting in front of peoples' houses for hours. I think it would be great if Cliff could see that this behavior is not what he signed up for, and could ask himself how he got to that point?

He probably thinks he's helping the cause by spying on a suppressive person, but I already gave my reasons for being a critic. I want to see the Sea Org be able to go home once and week, and have free access to their families.

I think that's pretty simple and clear...and believable.

Now, on the other hand, what are his reasons? What's wrong with my goal? Why does it need to be stopped? How is spying going to help? Did he ask anyone what the deal was? Why not? Scientology is about studying the truth. It says so in the big new ads they are running. How can he find out the truth if he doesn't ask people, and listen to their answers, and investigate all the sources? Like actually ask me.

I don't get why people just do these things like sheep, when they are supposed to be experts on knowledge and the truth.

Even LRH said somewhere (can't find the quote now) but it's something like, If there are two sides to a story, you should listen and investigate and find out.

For example, if a person says they got ripped off by a business, in order to find out the truth you would have to talk to the business owner AND the person claiming to be ripped off. Scientologists think it's ok somehow to just talk to one side. That is not how knowledge or the truth works. They should know that.

For instance, I asked a handler at the last protest if he read Debbie Cook's letter, and he said he didn't read that crap. But how could he know which side is telling the truth? What if Miscavige is lying? I told him that OT8 Geir Isene decided to find out for himself about the stories of abuse and he spent 1,000 hours talking to various people and reading both sides. We know the conclusion he came up with.

That's the one thing that we will just have to disagree on.. being proactive vs. reactive, or just doing nothing. Making the public aware of Clif's actions is not "revenge". You may not be bothered by it, but you don't speak for other people that ARE bothered by being watched, followed, photographed, etc.

Regardless of one's religion, the public frowns on men hanging outside a woman's home & keeping them under surveillance for ANY reason. Now, that Clif is aware that he's been exposed, it will be interesting to know whether he does anymore surveillance on your home.

OC Weekly: Scientology Protester on Allegedly Being Followed..
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=57764

With all love my dear, you should have known better. Did you think by posting that Cliff was going to come here and read it? When you post something like that expect Anon's to take all action they can within the law. You might not have wanted it but you stuck Cliff's penis in a hornets nest. Well he is the one that stuck it in, you just showed us where to sting.

As one who once participated in OSA ops keeping critics under surveillance & following them, I've seen both sides. It's one thing for Paulien to have spied on her. It's an entirely different matter when it's a grown man (I say that loosely) keeping a woman under surveillance & harassing her. There's no excuse or justification for that.