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 Post subject: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cults"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:23 pm 
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From Australia:

I can't remember if I've read this before or whether the familiarity is simply because it uses all the classic baloney-filled logical fallacies that other apologetics articles use.

Quote:
Tolerance should extend to cults

Image Dr Rodney Blackhirst
Email: r.blackhirst@latrobe.edu.au

First published in the Bendigo Advertiser on 5 January, 2012

Australia has an admirable tradition of religious tolerance in a secular framework. Religious freedom and separation of Church and State are explicit provisions in the Australian constitution. Our society is religiously diverse, religious passions are generally muted, and there is little or no sectarian strife.

According to some, though, this landscape of freedom is blighted with hundreds, or even thousands, of sinister "cults". The Cult Information & Family Support group in NSW recently reported that there are "about 3000" cults operating in Australia. At a recent conference hosted by Liberal Senator Sue Boyce and independent Senator Nick Xenophon there have been calls for tough new laws to deal with a supposed proliferation of "cults" and "sects" who, we are told, prey on the weak in uncertain times.

The premise of this conference, and media portrayal of so-called "cults", needs to be challenged.

Firstly, what is a "cult"? The word is thrown around very loosely and can simply mean no more than a religious group that one does not like. Anti-cult or "cult-buster" groups tend to be extremely loose with the term, and this is how they arrive at alarming figures like the 3000 "cults" in Australia. Such figures will include groups like the Mormons, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Jehovah's Witness, the Hare Krishna, Sufism, Freemasonry and just about anyone else with a belief system deemed exotic or weird.

Secondly, the claim that "cults" are all around us and are tearing up the social fabric has no foundation in facts. The "problem" is largely media generated. The heyday of "cults" and wayward gurus was the 1980s. Membership in many groups, such as the Church of Scientology, has been in decline in recent decades. (Although both the CoS and their enemies would deny this. They both inflate membership figures for opposing reasons.) Small groups come and go at a rapid rate, of course, but the idea that the country is swarming with "cults" is simply untrue.

Thirdly, even among groups that do cause concern, there is little evidence of illegal activities. The "cultic deviances" of which the French speak are usually the product of custody battles over children, but such battles are rarely more vicious and traumatic for families in so-called "cults" than for non-religious people. And a religious conversion to Catholicism, or Buddhism, or other mainstream faiths, can cause as much trouble in families as conversions to fringe groups. Converts to all sorts of groups will often shun their former life. There are groups that are more exclusive and secretive than others, but there is little evidence that they are endemic and having such a corrosive impact upon Australian family life that our governments need new, invasive powers to stop the rot.

Indeed, from a law enforcement point of view, it is often the over-zealous "cult busters" who cause more concern than the cults they purport to bust. There are celebrated cases where "cult busters" have kidnapped unwilling family members from so-called "cults" and then tried to "deprogram" them. Anti-cult vigilantes often have no respect for the privacy or property of supposed "cults" and no respect for the religious rights of "cult" members.

I recently spent over six months making a study of anti-cult literature on and offline. Some of it can only be described as witch-hunt literature. There is now a long history of anti-cult organisations inflating figures and bending the truth in order to bolster their case and create alarm. If you believe some anti-cult websites, the things that happen behind closed doors at your local Masonic lodge would make your hair curl! According to some, your local Steiner school is a hotbed of cultic evil. Increasingly, anti-cult groups (like other victims advocacy groups) have the ear of media outlets who know that cult-bashing makes good press. Increasingly, they also have the attention of politicians who think they are onto a popular cause.

It is worrying, therefore, that such "cult-busters" are now seeking greater legal backing for their crusade. And it is very worrying, under our tradition of secularism, when the State takes it upon itself to extend the policing of people's religious beliefs and practices.

There are undoubtedly a few dangerous cults in the mix - a very small number according to my studies - but this is the price we pay for an open, free and religiously diverse community. Such groups will almost always fall foul of existing criminal laws anyway. And there are, no doubt, cases of exploitation and manipulation, but by and large members of so-called "cults" are simply exercising their right to freedom of worship.

The fact that their families might not like their choice, and society at large might find their beliefs and practices strange, does not make the group involved sinister. The popular notion that there are hundreds of confused people struggling to free themselves from the clutches of manipulative cults is not supported by studies. Generally, members of groups routinely labelled as "cults" (the Hare Krishna, for example) are very happy.

There is no need for governments to acquire new, invasive powers to deal with a problem that is largely the making of the tabloid media. Certainly, history tells us that state intervention in religion is a dangerous path to tread. As long as religious groups - regardless of how "weird" they might be - stay within the law they should be tolerated and defended against vengeful and uncomprehending families and against anti-cult zealotry in all its forms.

Dr Rodney Blackhirst is a lecturer in religious studies at La Trobe University.


La Trobe University
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2012/opinion/tolerance-should-extend-to-cults
Claims to have been first published in the Bendigo Advertiser on 5 January, 2012 but I can't find it there.
It did pop up on the feeds today but at this site....
Healthcanal.com
http://www.healthcanal.com/life-style-fitness/25166-Tolerance-should-extend-cults.html

=================

OK, so who wants to do a point-for-point rebuttal?

=================

Parallel discussion on WWP:
http://forums.whyweprotest.net/threads/ ... ults.98396
Some interesting points raised there.

Recent related OCMB threads:
'Cults in Australia' - CIFS 2011 Conference - FULL VIDEOS
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=42910

2 US Congressmen ask French PM to disband MIVILUDES
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43883
Voice of Russia: Struggle for Religion (26 September 2011)
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=42619
[WWP] Scientology Religiosity? (Research Packets & Dox)
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=38941

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Last edited by Sponge on Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:28 am 
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What a straw-man. Kidnapping/deprogramming was disavowed by most critics decades ago, and court rulings make it clearly illegal. The regulars on this message board have never advocated kidnapping-deprogramming. Ted Patrick and Rick Ross did prison time for their crimes (which weren't against Scientologists). Patrick is now around 82 years old, hardly a threat to anyone. One man received a suspended sentence for false imprisonment and causing bodily harm to a German Scientologist - that was Cyril Vosper, who died in 2004.* I know of no other convictions for kidnapping / deprogramming a Scientologist.

While Dr. Blackhirst isn't exactly defending CoS, it is odd timing that his don't-pick-on-the-new-religions piece, mentioning Scientology, comes out just as CoS is reeling in humiliation over Debbie Cook's e-mail.
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Vosper


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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:41 am 
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'Deprogramming' is a term to which most cults have worked hard to make bad and to a large extent it has worked.

When I first left I didn't like it either. Then I deprogrammed myself. Ah, so that's what it is! Deprogramming is a procedure whereby a former cult member is educated about the methods that the cult they were in used on them to influence their behavior, information, thoughts and emotions.
http://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php
As a former cult member becomes educated on the methods used by cults, which is deprogramming, they become less susceptible to phobias, triggers, and other mental traps put there by the cult with whatever methods it has used to instill them.

The only possible down side to it, although I don't look at it as such, is that one cannot be selectively deprogrammed. Mind control techniques used on a person by a variety of sources other than the cult for a variety of other reasons tend to also get pointed out and their effects lessened as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:34 am 
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CoS's favorite scare stories told to its members was that critics were either kidnapper-deprogrammers or allied with them, and would catch and forcibly deprogram people. For awhile the favorite scare story became "Anonymous picketers are terrorists," and maybe CoS is swinging back to their old bogeyman.

CoS's story is the same - that only in CoS are you safe from those monsters outside. The irony is that IAS and CoS regges are extorting money from the members, and picketers are only sounding out a warning.


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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:53 pm 
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Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst wrote:
Membership in many groups, such as the Church of Scientology, has been in decline in recent decades. (Although both the CoS and their enemies would deny this. They both inflate membership figures for opposing reasons.)


Where the hell did he get that from? Critics ("enemies" in Dr.R.Blackhirst's opinion) have been pointing out the decline of membership of Co$ for years!

Peter

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:57 pm 
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Give us some sources and name your critics that inflate CoS membership, Dr. Blackhirst. Bernie claims to be an "unbiased" critic, and Bernie acts as though Scientology is still expanding. Dr. Blackhirst, if you are using Bernie's confused, inconsistent, and mostly-pro-Scientology site as a source, I debunked Bernie years ago, most recently at BERNIE’S JUNE 2009 WEBSITE AGAINST CoS CRITICS,at viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30866 .


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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:03 pm 
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I would love to kiss him on the mouth!

After one leaves the cult, they get an opportunity to reprogram what the cult has deprogrammed


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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:26 pm 
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I rewrote my above posts, to include the Cyril Vosper case, which did involve kidnapping/deprogramming a Scientology; Cyril died eight years ago, so no danger from him anymore. Also, I linked to my critique of Bernie's website, in case Dr. Blackhirst thought Bernie was "unbiased."


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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:28 am 
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Blackhirst said: I recently spent over six months making a study of anti-cult literature on and offline.

This "anti-cult" phrase is a Bernie trademark, and Bernie links to many, many stories and writings concerned about the supposed trouble caused by this "anti-cult" movement. It actually took me months to digest Bernie's tangled website, with its spaghetti tangle of links. Bernie wrote a lot himself, too. To read and re-read (due to double-and-triple links to the same document) could easily take six months. Bernie also presents a consistent patter that Bernie alone is unbiased, and that Bernie's minor criticism of Scientology makes him a "Third Way" critic that is neither pro-Scientology nor anti-Scientology. Bernie presents a number of "scholarly papers" which support his anti-anti-cult-movement position (1) Again, just those "scholarly papers" could take months to fully digest. Meanwhile, outside of Bernie's website, there is a torrent of news and opinion, often contradictory and half-baked. OCMB, whyweprotest, and ESMB message boards are always commenting on the latest news, we are often extremely snarky, and we differ and disagree, so it is hard to use us to prove any academic point.

Another odd thing is that Blackhirst doesn't QUOTE anybody. This would be consistent with quoting Bernie, since Bernie's sources are old and sometimes even dead!

The antidote to this sloppy written thing that Blackhirst has produced (I wouldn't even call it an article) is to read from many thoughtful writers at the International Cultic Studies Association,(2) and use a more neutral term than "anti-cult."(3) Many of the early authors who wrote about how bad the "anti-cult-movement" are discussed in my debunking of Bernie's site (4)
(1) http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/mc_astudies.htm
(2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... ssociation
(3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-cult_movement
(4) viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30866


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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:37 am 
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Blackhurst wrote:
As long as religious groups - regardless of how "weird" they might be - stay within the law they should be tolerated and defended against vengeful and uncomprehending families and against anti-cult zealotry in all its forms.

He offers NO solution as to how to keep these groups within the law, he just attacks those who are pursuing a solution to this problem. He doesn't even seem to realize this IS a problem- such as when their religious status places them above the law: groups like the CoS who routinely commit fraud, illegally practice medicine, deny civil rights and otherwise break the law. He offers no answer to a situation like that of Hubbard's who turned his fraudulent pseudo-science into a religion for no other reason than to have full control and avoid taxation.

I understand his rant against extremism and I don't disagree that there are issues with that. But that doesn't mean you ignore the very real problems we face from problematic groups such as CoS. While people like him want to err on the side of caution, real victims are really suffering and that's not ok with me. He's mouthing off a counter argument without having all the facts. He's minimally ignorant of the reality of CoS's crimes for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:12 am 
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Don Carlo wrote:
Blackhirst said: I recently spent over six months making a study of anti-cult literature on and offline.

This "anti-cult" phrase is a Bernie trademark, and Bernie links to many, many stories and writings concerned about the supposed trouble caused by this "anti-cult" movement. It actually took me months to digest Bernie's tangled website, with its spaghetti tangle of links. Bernie wrote a lot himself, too. To read and re-read (due to double-and-triple links to the same document) could easily take six months. Bernie also presents a consistent patter that Bernie alone is unbiased, and that Bernie's minor criticism of Scientology makes him a "Third Way" critic that is neither pro-Scientology nor anti-Scientology. Bernie presents a number of "scholarly papers" which support his anti-anti-cult-movement position (1) Again, just those "scholarly papers" could take months to fully digest. Meanwhile, outside of Bernie's website, there is a torrent of news and opinion, often contradictory and half-baked. OCMB, whyweprotest, and ESMB message boards are always commenting on the latest news, we are often extremely snarky, and we differ and disagree, so it is hard to use us to prove any academic point.

Another odd thing is that Blackhirst doesn't QUOTE anybody. This would be consistent with quoting Bernie, since Bernie's sources are old and sometimes even dead!

The antidote to this sloppy written thing that Blackhirst has produced (I wouldn't even call it an article) is to read from many thoughtful writers at the International Cultic Studies Association,(2) and use a more neutral term than "anti-cult."(3) Many of the early authors who wrote about how bad the "anti-cult-movement" are discussed in my debunking of Bernie's site (4)
(1) http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/mc_astudies.htm
(2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... ssociation
(3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-cult_movement
(4) viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30866


Don, can you bump your old thread about Bernies site? I can't currently find it. It is really important people get a feel for how apologists knowingly or unknowingly put forth absolute BULLSHIT leik blackhirst(he no longer deserves to have his name captitalized IMHO!) puts forth as documented fact.
I honestly believe his recent effort about anti-cult and scientology will moar than come back to bite him on the arse. The cult will try use him as a reference point in AU when the hammer falls on scientology in Terra Australis. Oh yes, there is no doubt 2012 for scn in the AU will be even worse then 2011.

Might be time to call on Bryan(balls-o-steel) Seymour...since our T.V ratings period is on the cusp of starting up again.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:35 am 
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Someone should ask Blackhirst if he was paid, and by whom, for his writing-thing which isn't good enough to be called an article. They shouldn't ask him "Did the Church of Scientology pay you?" because likely he could say no, because the $$'s were paid by a wealthy donor or a front group.


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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:44 pm 
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It's a pity Dr. Blackhirst can't spend a couple of weeks in the RPF. It would be a great opportunity for him to practice the tolerance he preaches.


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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:49 am 
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For anyone to claim 'tolerance should extend to cults' leaves me feeling somewhat dumbfounded.

Clearly the author of such a blatantly ignorant and uninformed claim wasn't raised in a cult, or forced to endure beatings, ridicule, scorn and alienation through their school years because of their parents religious choices, nor, clearly, did they experience the religious, cult practice of the psychological and spiritual raping of their young mind.

Tolerance? I don't think so.

The absolute and total annihilation of all cults? Now we're talking.


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 Post subject: Re: Apologist Dr.R.Blackhirst "Tolerance should extend to cu
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:48 pm 
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Quote:
The absolute and total annihilation of all irrational belief systems? Now we're talking.


FIFY


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