The DEAD GUY of course. Hubbard created the rules, tools and environment which enabled Miscavige to act like the psychopath he is.
More so, because Hubbard made it possible through his manipulative mind control tech that people like Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder , but also Debbie Cook (and many others too) acted like they did. Even long after Hubbard "dropped his body".
Without Hubbard there wouldn't be a manipulative and abusive cult, with a psychopath at the top.

Peter

I must do with DM....
It is one thing to "invent" something,and make lots of people-in 1950s to give you money,life,family....
but it is completely different to make people ,to follow orders, from that insane guy and his sf writings (from 1950s) -in year 2000-2012.....
that guy has something-and that is not good....
Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia...

That may be true, but LRH did not make Scientology "go global' like DM has. LRH wanted the cult to remain. essentially, a family operation, continuing to profit from the various mission franchises where he got a cult of the proceeds.

It was DM and his many "friends" in the business world that took Scientology from LRH's vision to the manner in which Donald Trump and his "take no prisoners" approach to business. All of LRH's policies and tech bulletins took a back seat, while DM turned the cult into a money-making scheme that catapulted him to a dictatorial role.

Without Hubbard, DM would have nothing to take global. The structure, mind-control, and the torture all came out of eLwRONg. They will both rot in hell, but Satan will be more impressed with Hubbs than DM.

Yep LRH pooped out DM. The asshole that gave birth to a turd. Remeber LRH called for the R-45 of people! Just about everything DM does LRH did too.

Yes, the DEAD GUY started it, but he could not force anyone to continue the madness after his death. Hubbard WAS worse in the same sense that Hitler WAS worse than the Neo-Nazi's in terms of damage done. But I am not worried about Hitler or Hubbard anymore because they are both long dead. I'm worried about those who are still alive and want to carry on their legacies. To me it's like asking "Who is worse, a dead mad man with a gun or a living mad man with a gun?" I'm looking at who is currently more dangerous.


As far as who is/was worse in terms of total harm done, it think it was the DEAD GUY, with DM coming in a close second. But it looks like DM is playing "catch up".

Yes, Hubbard was full of shit. And DM is a "BM". LRH had a natural talent for pulling things (in this case a protege) out of his ass.

Agree with RP that everything DM does LRH did too. But DM seems to have sunk lower and enjoyed it more. And, as has been stated, continues to do so.

Ahh, but it's all about 'intention'

http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/ops/go732/go732.htm

It's really not possible to say what DM or anyone else would or would not have done without Hubbard. Without Hubbard, I wouldn't have been a $cienologist, but I may have joined some other cult. I remember a friend and co-worker while I was a $cientologist who was into Eckankar (not sure if that's how it is spelled). It sounded interesting to me, but I was already a $cientologist. If I wasn't, then I may have joined the Eck cult and got ripped off that way. I was young, naive and delusional enough to have done it without stopping to seriously consider what I may be getting myself into.

Point is, I don't think you can say that Hubbard was worse ONLY because he created the vehicle (CO$) for DM to take over (or highjack as some believe). Who knows? Without Hubbard, DM may have been a nice little manager at a local McDonald's, or he may have started his own cult, or he may have become a serial killer. There is just no way of knowing.

I think the DEAD GUY is worse simply because I think LRH did more harm overall than DM has (so far).

What if Scientology is currently in a process of diverting and leveraging global criticism by tying an elaborate knot out of the situation:

1) split a group of "independent scientologists" from the main organisation to join the protests and ally/align with apostates and outside members, channeling the criticism away from Hubbard's person and policies and toward Miscavige.
2) build up momentum, emotion and public attention through public lawsuits (e.g. Debbie Cook)
3) jettison Miscavige in a public and dramatic gesture
4) present itself as "cleaned and now accessible and OK"
5) go back to "business as usual" and continue to build the global parallel society it has been creating

Just a thought... probably not the case, but given what Co$ has been pulling off in earlier times, it might be a mistake not to expect that their deception reaches deeper than it appears.

P.S. I don't think this is the case, and I wish Debbie Cook the very best, but I believe it makes sense to keep this way of seeing it open as a framework of interpretation.

So who is worse, the dead guy or the dwarf?

The DEAD GUY - his essence lives on in the tech and in the suffering it causes.

I don't think that the question of "who is worse" makes a lot of sense - they are both highly problematic in their own way.
Hubbard was a master of deception and according the accounts of recent defectors, Miscavige is a tyrant/dictator type.

I think there is a real danger that Miscavige is build up to appear as so evil and abusive that it might distract from Hubbard who might secretly become whitewashed underneath.

I agree the question is dumb but it does spark some interesting discussion.

(Warning: the following is full of loaded language and is really addressed to current scientologists)

I would love to hear what Indies think about why Dave is the way he is, how he got that way and how he was able to rise to complete and total power in CoS.

I have for a long time agreed that Dave is a "product" of the scientology system as invented by LRon. Before little Dave arrived to screw it all up, it must have been in pretty good shape, right? I'd like to know what Indies think Dave is a product of, if not the scientology system? Do they think he is a product of the wog system? I don't think Dave had much schooling in wog systems. They can't blame psyches for the way he is . Would they blame his parents for raising him wrong and not teaching him standard scientology while he was growing up so that he wouldn't squirrel the tech? Or was it his supervisors and auditors' faults? Or would Indies see Dave's "DNA" as the cause of the way he is? If their explanation is simply that Dave is an "SP", okay, but then that leaves me with many more questions. That means he didn't make any tone arm action in auditing and it would have obvious from the first day he got auditing. How could no one see that? I would really like to hear some analysis about how LRon's "100% workable" technology allowed an "SP" to get control of the entire religion of scientology? Indies like to analyze "outpoints", well how about that HUGE glaring outpoint? Was no one around Dave trained on PTS-SP tech? No one was at cause enough or had enough integrity to act before it was too late? No one's communication skills or knowledge of the org board was good enough to organize a movement to successfully oppose him? Scientology training is supposed to give one the ability to OBNOSE which is scientologuese for "observing the obvious" yet no one observed what he was doing when he took over the church decades ago and began his "reign of terror"? In essence, what they are saying is that scientology tech is perfect, but everyone simply failed to use or apply it successfully to the Dave Miscavage problem. They don't even realize that when they do this they make no sense whatsoever. They all claim to love scientology and love their "church" but completely failed when it came to it's most important application- the saving of their church from an SP.

I challenge Ex Int Base Indies to tell me they did not justify the kinds of things they saw Dave doing as the kinds of things LRon would have done. For example, overboarding. It's probably common knowledge at Int level that LRon had a practice on his ships called overboarding. So when Dave was marching you down to that cesspool for overboarding, weren't you thinking that this must be okay because it's what LRon did?