Xemnu of the Magic Planet

A place to post and debate the Church of Scientology.
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don_carlo
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Post by don_carlo » Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:29 am

Is the theory of body thetans central to your personal interpretation of Scientology? If so, could you respond to the 5:42 post? Thanks.

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:18 am

The BT thing was never central for me- or for most of my Scientologist friends, I might add. The real emphasis by any Scientologist I know- including myself- is the postulates behind the incidents.

As far as do I believe in the OTIII stuff? Well, I think there's something there, and my experiences with the subject indicate to me that there is. What that "something" is, I don't know, and I really don't worry about it. As I said, I'm willing to entertain the idea that it's an allegory and true only in that sense. I'm also totally willing to entertain the idea that it's literally true. Either way, it's fine because it's the postulates in back of the incidents that are central to Scientology. Not the incidents themselves, even these kind of incidents.

Re your post- well, Caroline Letkeman cuts no ice with me.. I've also read her stuff on colors and symbolism and I've read - and been posted to by- her stuff on a.r.s. Her interpretation is her interpretation and it's singular and unique to herself and to her own "case" and I am not interested in delving into someone elses "Case".

As far as confidentiality (of OT stuff and various other things) goes - I don't think it's necessary. The church is pretty het up on it, but I'm not. The FZ is split on it, mostly, but even those who are pro-confidentiality only want that for themselves and don't really care if others want to discuss it publicly. And many people don't feel there should be any confidentiality. The OTIII stuff's been out on the net for quite some time but it has not made any difference, in my opinion.

I respect other people's wishes there, though, and with Scientologists I know who don't want to hear about the OTIII stuff, I honor that.

And, out of personal preference, there's only so much I'll say about the Incident II stuff, publicly. People can have whatever opinions they like about that- it's my decision what I want to answer and how much I want to say and if there is anyone who would wax negative on that, well, that would, if it happened, be more of a reflection on that person than on me.

Bernie's right in what he says as far as he takes it, at any rate. The reason he's right is that for us, it's the postulates(and considerations) behind an incident that matter, as I mentioned. All of auditing hinges on postulates and considerations. All.

OTs don't consider it to be a big deal. Pre OT Scientologists don't, either.

And as far as being made some kind of laughingstock over this having come out publicly, well, I've heard of some pretty wacky beliefs that are widespread. Such as transubstantiation. the Assumption. Sacraments. Graces. Original Sin. Heaven. Hell. 144,000 chosen people. The planet Zolob. Visions of "God" or gods. The rituals of esoteric buddhism. Sati mata (most recent documented case 1985 in Rajasthan to Rhoop Kanwar), the resurrection, the Rapture, Glorified bodies, The Trinity, not just accepting Jesus as one's savior but accepting him as your PERSONAL savior, The Karmic Wheel, Nirvana...on and on...

On this planet, no Scientologist could ever become a laughingstock because of what he or she believed.

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merlin
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Post by merlin » Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:15 am

"The real emphasis by any Scientologist I know- including myself- is the postulates behind the incidents."

[FAIR USE: Ronspeak definitions from the Dianetics and Scientology TECHNICAL DICTIONARY © 1949 AND EVERY SINGLE YEAR THEREAFTER UP TO 1975 by L Ron Hubbard (!)]:

POSTULATE, n. a self-created truth. / v. to cause a thinkingness or consideration.

CONSIDERATION, n. a thought, a postulate about something. [END FAIR USE Ronspeak definitions]

What could the 'allegorical' postulates behind the Xenu story possibly be? Did Ron the Postulator simply create himself a "truth"? Maybe. The "thinkingness" he caused with it have certainly helped his "church" gain a condition of affluence in the mystery-sandwich trade.

"...for us, it's the postulates(and considerations) behind an incident that matter, as I mentioned. All of auditing hinges on postulates and considerations. All."

So, auditing is all about thoughts, thinkingnesses, and/or self-created truths. Yes, well, that is, unless Arnie is right and it's more about tiny endorphin-releasing electrical currents being run through one's body for hours at a time...

Hey, maybe it's ALL about releasing endorphins! But we don't need wacky beliefs for that - especially not those costing six-figure fortunes, most of our time and all of our minds.


"All right, m'breddah, time fa postulatin' dat Lambsbread up hyah DIS direction, please mon!" 8)

ltricha
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Post by ltricha » Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:55 am

I can't wait to see Fluffy's answer to you Loki! This is going to be good.
Tech is the carrot.
Admin is the cart.
and ethics is the whip.
Guess who the horses are...

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:55 pm

The word "consideration" I used can be found in any non Scn dictionary and I didn't bother defining it. Means same thing outside of Scn that it does in Scn. And everyone here knows what Scn'ists mean by postulates, meaning decisions.

Everything that happens to a person or is caused by a person has considerations and decisions connected with it.

That is what Scn is all about.

So incident content doesn't matter to any of us.No matter what auditing we've had or not had.

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merlin
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Post by merlin » Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:55 pm

"Everything that happens to a person or is caused by a person has considerations and decisions connected with it."

- Have you never caused something without considering and deciding beforehand? IOW, just acted, spontaneously? Must thought always precede action?

"That is what Scn is all about.

"So incident content doesn't matter to any of us. No matter what auditing we've had or not had."


- That sounds to me as if you're saying, 'in scientology, style trumps substance' - in which case I completely agree.

Tom
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Post by Tom » Sat Aug 23, 2003 11:09 pm

Here's a "consideration" ....

"To in any way encroach upon the Church or to distract one from moving up the Bridge to Total Freedom is the ultimate crime."

~ RTC Information Letter #1

========================================

Any substance here? .............Nope!

Any style? .........Gobs & oodles! 8)

tp

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:28 am

My apologies, Loki-- I was talking about painful, upsetting incidents and did not make that plain in my post.

But, in any case, anytime anything at all happens to someone, good, bad, aberrative, painful, pleasant, nice - the person will have considerations (thoughts) about it.

And if it pops up in any therapy, whether that be auditing or not, it will be because of certain important thoughts he had about it and/or decisions.

don_carlo
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Post by don_carlo » Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:05 am

Can you give me examples about the postulates behind the incident? How many postulates are there, and how are they different from each other?

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:43 am

???

Huh??

They depend on the individual.

(you didn't know that? I thought you were a former Scn'ist.)

??

haarek
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Post by haarek » Sun Aug 24, 2003 10:19 am

Fluffy:
"anytime anyting happens to someone,-the person will have considerations about it."
And
"the incident content doesn`t matter to any of us."

The point isn`t if the incident content are important or not, but factual or not.
For auditing to be valid, when you run incidents, the incidents must be factual, not imagined.
And we where talking about the OT III incident with the nuclear bombing and body thetans.
For that auditing on the OT III level to have any value, the story must be believed to be true.

It is hold as a truth though in $cientology, that the postulate is more important than the incident it self. Sometimes you run the incident only long enough to find the postulate. But you run only incidents that is hold as factual.
The thing here is that the $cientologist would never run an incident he thought was not factual.
If he found the incident not to be factual, he would tell the auditor and they would sheck it on the meter and let the meter tell them if the incident was factual or not.
If the meter says it is not factual, then they skip it and move on to something that are.

If the incident is not factual, the postulate behind it wont be factual either.

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:54 pm

Well, you have your opinions about what happens and what didn't. And a lot of people have opinions on whether the Creation story was true, etc.

Doesn't matter whether anyone else thinks it's true or false.

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Post by haarek » Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:37 pm

Fluffy:
"anytime anything at all happens to someone, the person will have considerations about it."

If something happens to someone Fluffy, the incident is factual.

The question is; Do you Fluffy think that the OT III story is factual?
You answered that above;
"I`ve often felt the xenu story could be an allegory of some sort. Doesn`t matter to me, however. It`s just not something to worry about."

If the xenu story is an allegory, then what about the consideration or postulate Fluffy?

Fluffy;
"If it pops up in any therapy, wether that be auditing or not, it will be because of certain importan thought he had about it and/or desisions."

Fluffy, on one side you say that the xenu story could be an allegory, then you explain that an icident that happens to a person have consideration, thoughts, postulates connected with it. And you say that the postulate is important, not the incident.
Fluffy, you are deliberately running in circles, trying to handle what comes your way in well known $cientology manner.
I think you believe in the OT III story, but it crashes with your handling to say it. So you say;"an allegory".
And then you start talking about things happening to people, and that the postulate is the important thing.
If something happens to someone Fluffy, it`s not an allegory.

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Post by Ball of Fluff » Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:48 pm

I already answered Don Carlo about the OTIII thing.

I'm not doing it again.

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Post by Girlfriend » Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:02 pm

Not really, but DC will address that if he chooses. Be good if you could answer Haarek now though.

Important to have the beliefs of Hubbardites, whoever they are, laid plainly black-on-white (as you see it of course). That input is necessary to the whole debate.

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