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 Post subject: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:12 am 
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Somewhere I read a quote about what LRH said about how you find the truth of a matter.

I think it might have been Karen#1 who posted it, and it might have been on Marty's blog, but I can't find it.

It was something like, If there are two contradictory stories, you have to do the research to find out which is true. (I am sure this isn't even close, but that's the gist.)

I would really like to find this quote, because I think it's pretty interesting.

I keep thinking about how Scientologists, who are supposed to be the experts about knowledge, refuse to listen to both sides of a story.

If you watch the video "What is Scientology" the very FIRST thing in the video is a description of the meaning of the word Scientology, and it says it's the study of knowledge.

But, is that true AT ALL? Do Scientologists have a clue about knowledge and truth and how to find it?

If you go by their actions, it seems that knowledge is based on not doing research, not looking, not listening, not reading, etc. If their actions were quantified in words it would be, Knowledge is believing what we tell you to believe.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:17 pm 
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I'mglib wrote:
If you watch the video "What is Scientology" the very FIRST thing in the video is a description of the meaning of the word Scientology, and it says it's the study of knowledge.

But, is that true AT ALL? Do Scientologists have a clue about knowledge and truth and how to find it?


But of course it is true. L Ron Hubbard said so, and what he says is pure knowledge, pure truth. You cannot doubt anything that "Source" said. If you have any doubts, then you obviously need to fully word clear and clay table demo Keeping Scientology Working, and see an Ethics Officer immediately!

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:39 am 
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Hubbard claimed that he modeled Scientology after nuclear physics. Even when I was a Scientologist, his assertion made no sense to me, so I thought that he meant it metaphorically. When I became anti-Scientologist, I found out that the Old Fool actually believed in resemblance between Scientology and physics, which show his extremely low intellectual level.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Bump.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:24 am 
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You may be thinking about "contrary facts" from the Data Series in the Management Series Vol 1 p 64

CONTRARY FACTS

When two statements are made on one subject which are contrary to each other, we have "contrary facts."

Previously we classified this illogic as a falsehood, since one of them must be false.

But in doing data analysis one cannot offhand distinguish which is the false faQt. Thus it becomes a special outpoint.

"They made a high of $12,000 that week" and "They couldn't pay staff" occurring in the same time period gives us one or both as false. We may not know which is true but we do know they are contrary and can so label it.

64


In interrogation this point is so important that anyone giving two contrary facts becomes a prime suspect for further investigation. "I am a Swiss citizen" as a statement from someone who has had a German passport found in his baggage would be an example.

When two "facts" are contrary or contradictory we may not know which is true but we do know they can't both be true.

Issued by the same org, even from two different people in that org, two contradictory "facts" qualifies as an outpoint.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:37 am 
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I don't know...."They made a high of $12,000 this week"...and..."they couldn't pay staff"....is completely logical to me in the world of scientology?. Typical scientology logic would go something like this......."What?? You made a high of $12,000 this week!!!...WELL!..why didn't you make that amount last week then? Not only are all staff put in a condition of treason, but you will not even get beans this week!!...and you will not see another paycheck until you are out of treason and stats are all time high for 5 weeeks in a row!!!!" May not be factually true, but perhaps not so far-fetched for the mindset of the 'elite' Sea Org scientologist.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:45 am 
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Don't mind me...but I just had to leave with a little humor.....Elron's best quote is Tech. Vol. XIII....page 114, where he says...."Hey, Davey!....c'mere....pull my finger!"...he...he......(My apologies...all those years in scientology have finally warped my mind).

(I hope I don't get chastised for my weak attempt at humor....then I'll start wondering if I'm on a pro- or anti- scientology site????... :lol: God speed y'all. Nice work on your continued unmasking of that crime syndicate..scientology)


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:25 am 
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I'mglib wrote:
Somewhere I read a quote about what LRH said about how you find the truth of a matter.

I think it might have been Karen#1 who posted it, and it might have been on Marty's blog, but I can't find it.

It was something like, If there are two contradictory stories, you have to do the research to find out which is true. (I am sure this isn't even close, but that's the gist.)

I would really like to find this quote, because I think it's pretty interesting.

I keep thinking about how Scientologists, who are supposed to be the experts about knowledge, refuse to listen to both sides of a story.

If you watch the video "What is Scientology" the very FIRST thing in the video is a description of the meaning of the word Scientology, and it says it's the study of knowledge.

But, is that true AT ALL? Do Scientologists have a clue about knowledge and truth and how to find it?

If you go by their actions, it seems that knowledge is based on not doing research, not looking, not listening, not reading, etc. If their actions were quantified in words it would be, Knowledge is believing what we tell you to believe.


Maybe this is about the "Why Finder's Course"?
This course was given even at SCN Missions way back in the 1970s.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:12 pm 
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baltizaar wrote:
I don't know...."They made a high of $12,000 this week"...and..."they couldn't pay staff"....is completely logical to me in the world of scientology?. Typical scientology logic would go something like this......."What?? You made a high of $12,000 this week!!!...WELL!..why didn't you make that amount last week then? Not only are all staff put in a condition of treason, but you will not even get beans this week!!...and you will not see another paycheck until you are out of treason and stats are all time high for 5 weeeks in a row!!!!" May not be factually true, but perhaps not so far-fetched for the mindset of the 'elite' Sea Org scientologist.


We finished one of those 5X, 10X games with gross income at highest ever but there was no pay for staff, who had to my knowledge all achieved the 5X or 10X goal. Management decided to take all the available money and pay down the rent that was in arrears.

In spite of high production, morale fell out through the bottom. I think we can modify Ron's old saw a bit: Production is the basis for morale providing those that produce get a fair share of the proceeds.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:17 pm 
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LRH quote on knowledge: "Knowledge is certainty, not data."

Lore smiles. Data frowns.

I don't know where that quote comes from. It was one of the L. Ron aphorisms going around and it was in one of the $cientology magazines. They often throw out quotes followed with 'LRH' and don't give any reference as to where the quote is from. 'They' includes David Miscavige who has done that sort of thing when hosting his many garish events.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:32 pm 
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For non-Star Trek fans, Data was the android of the ship under Captain Jean-Luc Picard, and Lore was his evil twin android.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:12 am 
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Quote:
"Knowledge is certainty, not data."


Yikes. This explains a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:41 am 
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Quote:
You may be thinking about "contrary facts" from the Data Series in the Management Series Vol 1 p 64

CONTRARY FACTS

When two statements are made on one subject which are contrary to each other, we have "contrary facts."

Previously we classified this illogic as a falsehood, since one of them must be false.

But in doing data analysis one cannot offhand distinguish which is the false faQt. Thus it becomes a special outpoint.

"They made a high of $12,000 that week" and "They couldn't pay staff" occurring in the same time period gives us one or both as false. We may not know which is true but we do know they are contrary and can so label it.

64


In interrogation this point is so important that anyone giving two contrary facts becomes a prime suspect for further investigation. "I am a Swiss citizen" as a statement from someone who has had a German passport found in his baggage would be an example.

When two "facts" are contrary or contradictory we may not know which is true but we do know they can't both be true.

Issued by the same org, even from two different people in that org, two contradictory "facts" qualifies as an outpoint.




Thanks for this. I think this must be it.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:44 pm 
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I googled "contrary facts LRH" and found this letter from Michael Tilse that explains what I was thinking really well.

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Dear Scientologist,



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N.B.: This document contains no references to "advanced materials", OT levels, etc

Scientology books and lectures contain observations and technology on the subject of life in all its aspects.

In the technology, LRH stresses the importance of confronting what is actually in front of you.

The TRs are about confronting anything and being in communication. Being able to observe and to look without flinching away. And able to communicate to anything.

In auditing a PC who won't confront his bank is said to be rabbiting. Making up incidents is said to be "dubbing in". An auditor who cannot confront the PC's bank, no matter how entheta, is not much of an auditor.

Confront of such things is said to be without injury, as long as one is truly confronting.

Another aspect of the tech is "look, don't listen". An auditor is expected to look at the PC's indicators and meter phenomena and not just accept the PC's explanations or justifications.

Org Executives look at an area to observe things that shouldn't be. They look for backlogged communications or enmest, etc. Looking reveals clues to situations that cannot be detected from reports or falsified statistics. Looking to see what is actually there is part of the tech of management. Seeing for yourself and not just accepting someone's explanation about a problem is important. Looking for yourself and not "dubbing in" an invented rationalization is part of the tech of Scientology.

LRH went into detail about how data and reports can be false or distorted. This results in errors in thinking. The Data Series contains much of his writing on this subject. Using this tech, one can detect how reports or data or situations are illogical or wrong. Something that is wrong or illogical in some way is termed an "outpoint". This tech is where an outpoint guides you to an area that needs further inspection.

Outpoints can be things like "contrary facts". That's when two statements or statistics or reports cannot both be true at the same time. Or things are not in the proper sequence. There are a number of ways things can be outpoints.

You have probably studied some or all of this tech. Perhaps you have had the experience of seeing something that was just a little bit wrong and instead of explaining it away to yourself you "pulled the string" to find out what was behind the outpoint. You looked for yourself. Perhaps you, as LRH describes, pulled the string by looking, research and collecting evidence and found the "General Sherman Tank" behind the string of outpoints. You found what was really happening.

The tech of outpoints and investigation are for use in life, as any Scientology tech is for use in life. It applies to the world just as it applies within Scientology.

There isn't any part of Life that cannot be addressed with Confront, Noticing Outpoints, Investigation and Looking, not listening. If you found an outpoint and someone told you to NOT LOOK you'd be suspicious. Because being told you cannot look is in itself an outpoint.

That would cut you off from information you need to know.

You use this tech all the time in Scientology. Like when you notice your stats are down. Down stats are an outpoint. Rather than explain it away with "I'm just tired", instead you look for your Misunderstood!

So, I want to encourage you to use this tech. Look around at the things you experience in life and in Scientology.

When you observe things that make don't make sense or that don't add up, do something about it. Don't invent a reason that it must be alright. Don't "shine it on" and forget about it. Instead find out for yourself what is behind the outpoint. You might have to look in different places, read reports or ask people while you track down the source of the outpoint. Then do something about it. It sometimes takes a lot of confront.

Even small outpoints easily ignored can be indicators of far larger problems.

As examples, I ask some questions here. These are examples of things you might pay attention to in your environment. Don't 'list', but rather just look around for yourself and confront outpoints you might see.

Are there as many students on course as there used to be? In your org, on your schedule? As many as a year ago? As 5 years ago? 20? What is YOUR observation? And does that add up to expansion or contraction?

Does it seem a longer runway now?

If you have been in Scientology for years, is your "Ruin" now handled?

Are you redoing courses that you did years ago? If you got the data back then, why would you have to re-do the course?

Do you know people who have had permanent certificates for training and internships canceled because they did not pay for and re-do courses?

Are more or less auditors auditing in the field?

In the org, have long term stable and much loved staff members left or been removed? Who holds those posts now?

Are the staff you see more or less competent than a year ago? 5 years? 20?

Are you confident that your problems will be handled with understanding now or is it more rote? Is that different than in the past?

Is there now more pressure or less when you get regged? Does it seem more about the money now than before? What about the tone level? Are you being handled with stories of danger and threats? Is that different than before?

Do you accept the story you are told about the threats, or do you research it for yourself?

The events these days contain much loud music and flashing lights and pomp and ceremony. Does that seem right to you? Are you made to feel guilty for not going? Do you like the events now or did they used to be more enjoyable?

Do the reports of vast expansion seem to not apply to your area?

Why are the renovations of the Pacific Complex not done? And haven't been for years? Isn't that out PR? What happened to the building funds to finish it?

What about the OTs, people you know who have attained OT III, OT V, OT VIII? Are they well, happy? Do any get sick, die from cancer or other ills? Do the ones you know pay their bills, or are they in financial trouble?

Are you troubled by out-ethics in Scientologists who are "at the top of the Bridge?

Have you or any of your friends had unresolved problems with Ethics? Are you aware of "Justice Cycles" or WISE mediations that didn't turn out right? That didn't get corrected no matter what you did? How did what actually happened compare to what the ethics book says should happen? Did it seem like the person with more money, business connections or higher on the Bridge was favored?

What about the honor status lists in "Impact". Are there long time upper level Scientologists who have disappeared from those lists? How many? Why?

Does it seem like a lot of long time Scientologists are now out of the Church? Have you ever added it up to figure out how many?

Did you know personally OTs who left? Do you know why they left? From their own words?

Did you or others have to disconnect from people you used to admire?

Do you know yourself or from friends that young women in the Sea Org who get pregnant are pressured to get abortions? How does this fit with what LRH says about abortions?

When the Guardian's Office was operating, nine senior Scientologists went to jail in the United States. Do you know why? Does it make sense that these Scientologists, including Mary Sue Hubbard, went to jail for the reasons you were told? Did you know that they agreed to a stipulation of evidence that detailed many serious crimes? Is that what you were told or were you told they were convicted of "stealing copy paper"?

The former head of the Scientology Parishioners League, Tory Christman, left the church. She had been on OT VII for years. Isn't it an outpoint that someone who was a Scientologist for so long, who was so trusted and admired, left? Are you allowed to find out from her exactly why or do you have to agree with what someone else tells you? Would you get in trouble if you tried to find out?

Do you remember the Los Angeles Religious Freedom Crusade? The "Not one thin dime for Wollersheim!" slogan? The church settled with Larry Wollersheim, paying him over 8 million dollars. Why? What were the actual issues in the case? Is it different from what you were told? Do you know what the judge said in the decision?

Do you remember the church taking Time magazine to court over an article it did about the church? Who won that lawsuit? Do you know why?

The church settled with the IRS in 1993. It was heralded as a big win for Scientology. Why was the actual agreement secret? Why did the church pay the IRS 25 million dollars, if it was a "win"?

The Supreme Court upheld in "Hernandez vs IRS" that fixed donations for Scientology Services are not deductible. The IRS had sued over income tax deductions for Scientology services. They disallowed them. The case went to the Supreme Court of the United States and the disallowing of these deductions was upheld. It becomes ruling law because that is what the Supreme Court decided. That decision has not been overturned or removed. How then is it legal that the IRS, contrary to the Supreme Court, could later decide that fixed donations were deductible?

LRH's doctor, Gene Denk, recently died from cancer. Does that make sense to you?

Do you know about the long time Scientologist Reed Slatkin? He ran a "ponzi" scheme that defrauded many people. How long was he running that financial investment scam while he was auditing on OT VII? Why weren't his overts discovered at flag during the many "six month sec checks" he received?

Why did Tony Hitchman, an OT VIII, go to South Africa rather than face the courts about his involvement with Reed Slatkin? Does that seem right for a senior Scientologist?

Has the church paid back all the money it received as a result of Reed Slatkin's criminal scam? If not, why not? If they didn't, does that seem right?

After many years, the church settled out of court with the Lisa McPherson family. They paid the family money for what happened to Lisa at Flag in 1995. If the church was not at fault, why did they settle? Do you even know what really happened?

Super Power is going to open the door to world clearing. You have heard how important it is. Yet the Super Power building is not finished yet. It has not been worked on for years. Is that an outpoint? Why would Super Power require a building? Couldn't it be delivered with existing facilities to ensure expansion, while the building was being finished? After all, has it not been delivered to some people without the building?

How much money has been collected for Super Power? You could add up the contributions amounts in the published list to see how much there has been collected. It is nearly one hundred million dollars just from the large contributors. Isn't that enough to finish the building, or at least continue construction? Why are they still collecting that money? The church has told the Media in Clearwater that they have plenty of money to finish the building. Isn't it wrong to say to media that they have enough money to finish the building while they tell Scientologists more is needed?

The release of OT levels IX and X have been talked about for years. How many different targets have been given for their release? If they are so important to the survival of the planet, indeed the universe, why are they not being delivered to those ready for that level? Is it a case of "having to have before you can do?"

If the release of levels IX and X are dependent on creating 1000 "Saint Hill size orgs", how long will it be at the current rate? If it is that important, can we wait that long?

The books, policy and bulletins and lectures are being edited and changed from what they were during LRH's lifetime. Does that seem odd on the face of it? Have you compared word for word books like New Slant on Life, or the articles in the Ethics book with the original many times reprinted earlier versions? What chapters and words have been deleted? Added?

The Freewinds was originally built in an era when Cruise ships were insulated with tons of Asbestos. It is now known that Asbestos is very dangerous to one's health. Few, if any Cruise ships that had Asbestos in them are now in service. Was all the Asbestos removed from the Freewinds? Is there testimony that it wasn't and that the Freewinds is an Asbestos hazard to it's passengers and crew? Were you told that it was removed when you went to the ship? How would you find out the truth if someone didn't want you to know?

And finally, there is one important outpoint that I noticed myself. I didn't think that the explanations given to me about LRH's death added up. It bothered me for years. You are probably familiar with what the church says about it. Maybe it didn't all make sense to you either.

I was so bothered by it that I obtained official copies of LRH's death certificate, toxicology report on blood taken from his body and the text of the coroner's investigation. To prevent any interpretation or falsification of these, I got them direct from the San Luis Obispo County Clerk in person, and from the Sheriff's Deputy at the San Luis Obispo Sheriff's Office. By direct, I mean I went there personally and received them in person from the Clerk in the office and the Deputy/Coroner.

You can do the same. They are public documents. Don't believe what I say. Look for yourself and confront the implications.

The Death Certificate says LRH died from a cerebral vascular accident. In other words, a stroke. The Death Certificate was filled out by Dr. Denk, who was a Scientologist.

The Coroner's report says that Dr. Gene Denk, LRH's doctor, told him that LRH had suffered the stroke approximately 8 days prior to LRH's death. It also says that LRH was suffering from problems with verbal communication after the stroke.

The Coroner's report notes the condition of LRH's body, including a number of needle marks, covered by a bandage on his buttocks.

The WILL provided to the Corner was dated and signed the day before LRH died. Seven days after his stroke.

The Toxicology report on the blood taken directly from LRH's body by the Coroner shows the presence of "Vistaril". Please look up in the Physician's Desk Reference the entry on Vistaril and note what it is used to treat. Who or what kind of doctor would usually be administering it?

The vials of LRH's blood given to the Coroner for testing by Dr. Gene Denk did not contain Vistaril. Blood taken directly from LRH's body did.

Think about that.

All this is a lot to confront. I assure you, if you honestly follow the strings revealed by your observations by digging up the actual data wherever you might find it, you will find the General Sherman Tank of your own. But only if you are honest and don't make up reasons why they are not outpoints or you let them be explained away rather than find the actual information yourself. It will take a lot of confronting. The most you have ever had to confront in your Scientology experience. At least that was the way it was for me.

You should be able to confront anything and communicate with anything to find out the truth. Your TRs and training should have prepared you. To answer your questions you should be able to search out information on the Internet, in libraries or from anyone. You should be able to look at the information on both sides of any issue.

I would see it as an outpoint if someone or an organization told me I could not look somewhere because it was "entheta" or lies. An auditor has to confront lies and entheta all the time. His training protects him. Your training should protect you as you search out truth, no matter where you need to look. You should sort it out for yourself. It's your future, after all.

Two years ago, I published initial results of my own confronting of the outpoints I had found. It was a big step for me. It was my doubt formula. You can look it up on the net.

I wish you well, and I wish you good looking.

Michael Leonard Tilse

Copyright 2005, Michael Leonard Tilse



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 Post subject: Re: Looking for LRH quote about knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:27 pm 
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This is kind of similar. I see it quoted on a lot of peoples' Scientology page.

Quote:
One can always know something about anything. It is a wise man who, confronted with conflicting data, realizes that he knows at least one thing - that he doesn't know.

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