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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:30 pm 
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I didn't know about it until one of the highest execs had a breakdown after her abortion...and even then it was only whispered about within her circle of friends, all the rest of the staff knew was that she and her husband were busted and sent to Happy Valley. (Int RPF). I was shocked and horrified, and it was a huge crack in my Truman show.

It was only after I got out that I realized how many people this happened to. - Ladybird


Do you think that Lisa McPherson's handlers "didn't know about it" too, then? What was going on in her "watches" I mean. Until it was too late.

This is my point, Ladybird: you didn't know, lots of others didn't know, people committed suicide because CoS Scientologists like yourself and others "didn't know."

Lisa McPherson and probably others not published - or others published who suffered in other hideous ways like Roxanne Friend, and Susan Meister, etc. etc. etc., who lost their lives BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU DIDN'T KNOW.

I find it very odd that you and others insist that Claire and Terril are some kind of criminals as human beings.

I have no argument with you regarding the tech.

You and others were once willing and able accomplices in Hubbard's heinous practices. I don't see where you get off insisting everyone coming out of CoS has to take your route and criticize in the same ways you do, in your timeframe, and rejecting everything. And in so doing, personally abuse those who don't folow your particular path out the door of CoS.

I see you thanking Andreas for providing you with the sapce to air your views, but what I don't see is your respecting Andreas's ROC for this mssage board.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:23 pm 
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BG, I DID do something about things when I did figure it out. That is why I got kicked out in the middle of the night with nothing. I was "enturbulating" people by trying to handle what I saw as a totally out-ethics, out-tech off policy situation. This was not the scientology I signed up for. Many of the people I "enturbulated" are out now too, and can verify that. What I found out about while I was IN the cult was only the tip of the iceberg...and I am even more outraged at what I was a part of now that I am out.

The problem I have with people who DO know the whole story about LRH and DM and what goes on in scientology is just what you are accusing me of.

I DIDN'T know, they DO know and they continue to promote it and lie about the benefits of it and try to whitewash the ugly truth about the tech and the cult.

I do get really angry sometimes, especially with people who SHOULD know better and keep doing and saying the same crap over and over for years and years.

I have been very nice to Fluff and complimented her many times for some things that she writes. I don't just pick on her for no reason. The last little blow up was about her saying auditing "cured" her heart problem and writing over 50 posts defending herself and complaining about me. Do you agree with that?

Now if you don't mind, I think this thread is too important to turn into a flame war. Please PM me or start another thread about me if that is what you want to discuss.

I have talked to alot of people who were involved with this coerced abortion thing while in the sea org (I was not) and they have alot of guilt about it. I am very sorry for many of the things I did, too, and I have apologized many times.

Abortion is pushed by heavy ethics and threats and making already deluded adherents of the cult do conditions about "what is the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics" and all that crap.

I would not be surprised if one reason so many scientologists commit suicide is in part because they realize all the rotten things they did in the name of scientology.

Accusing and blaming the victims as you did above is not helping anybody recover.

Ladybird

PS: Read this: http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?p=172609#172609


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:55 am 
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I'm not interested in a flamewar, Ladybird, but that is a pretty funny statement, I must say. A lot of threads were and are too important to turn into flamewars, but I don't see a lot of folks trying to stop them, including yourself, unless, as above it suits you. (Not excluding myself in this particular case, either.)

My view is that ex-CoS critics have a truckload of knowledge to share, and I get that Hubbard is a sensitive subject - man, don't get ME started - and that there's a variety of positions and histories from these exers, and I want to hear them all whether I agree or not.

And most of all I'd like to see people respecting the ROC of this board. You're worried, I think it was you saying that, that nubee exes will be turned off/feel unsafe/ reading the board if freezone or indie scn is "advertised" here. I reckon many more will be turned off/feel unsafe to witness the nastiness that goes on here these days - how can it not remind them of the sh*t they went through in CoS?

As for coerced/forced abortion in the Sea Org it is nothing short of a heinous crime. Are Sea Org women still getting free abortions in government-funded clinics? Do Scientologist doctors perform them? What is the most recent knowledge you are anyone has on that?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:39 am 
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"As for coerced/forced abortion in the Sea Org it is nothing short of a heinous crime. Are Sea Org women still getting free abortions in government-funded clinics? Do Scientologist doctors perform them? What is the most recent knowledge you are anyone has on that?"


I don't know. I really hope that some people this did happen to will be able to read the stories here and know they are not alone, and that we are here to help them heal.

I think this is one of the worst things scientology does to people, and would make recovering from the cult that much harder.

I also know of instances where young people have permanently sterilized themselves in a misguided attempt to "prove their loyalty" to the Sea Org and the Billion year contract, only to find themselves kicked out or blown without the option of having a family when they realize they really wanted one and were wrong about the cult.

It breaks my heart. I don't want any one else to be mislead by the cult in this or any other way.

Ladybird


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:56 pm 
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A little history regarding children and the Sea Org:

In the early 80s, there were no rules regarding having or not having kids; at least not if you were posted at the non-confidential Sea Org bases such as Flag or PAC. I don't remember what happened if you were at Int, but I think a lot of those people would get reposted at lower level Sea Org orgs if they got pregnant. I think some of the Int orgs had nannies posted in PAC to take care of their kids.

If you consider that the average age for someone joining the Sea Org was early 20s, and that people had to get married to have sex, you have a ripe situation for a lot of pregnancies.

And pregnancies there were. Many women had multiple pregnancies. For example, one girl who was an AOLA staff member had seven kids in a period of about nine years.

Since there was a childcare org to care for the kids (yes, they did a terrible job, but that's not the point I'm making here) and the parents were on post all day, there was really no reason to not to procreate. For one thing, if you had kids, you got a bigger berthing space than if you didn't. In PAC in particular, berthing is a very hot button, since there are so many people there. In a way, it kind of rewarded people for having children.

In Los Angeles in particular, it got to be a totally out of control situation. The management orgs that had previously been located in Clearwater moved to LA in the 1980s, bringing all of their kids with them. The Int staff kids (this was before there was an Int ranch) were also in the PAC child care org. The PAC orgs staff themselves were having more children.

It also appears that Flag was trading staff to PAC who had numerous children for staff that had no kids.

An additional thing that was ocurring is that staff who had chronic medical conditions were also being traded to PAC. So, in addition to all of these kids, you also had staff who needed expensive medical treatment.

By the late 80s there were a few hundred staff in PAC and close to 700 dependent children.

It was rough on everyone. It was rough on the kids, it was rough on the orgs, it was rough on the parents.

If you were staff at Int or in middle management, you might not realize how bad it was. The PAC service orgs took the brunt of the problem. They paid for pretty much all of the childcare for all these kids, directly or indirectly, and it was usually the service orgs that wound up having to give staff to the CEO to take care of them all.

Though I don't think that forced abortion is OK, I also personally don't believe the Sea Org is any place for children. I think it's better that recruits are told up front that they can't have kids (god, I hope they're being told that up front, but who knows?) than to have them and have them being brought up there under those conditions.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:49 pm 
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Jeez, what an education in horrible priorities from the most ethikal group on the planet! Can't spend any money on buildings and staff for childcare centers! How stupidly shortsighted is that?

So where are the next generation CoSers of the most ethical beings on the planet supposed to come from since they can't come from the elite of that organization? The rich public? The famous public? If so, where the hell are they?

Are these present 2nd generation elite Sea Orgers guarding scieno celeb catches like Jessica Rodriguez and others are guarding Katie Holmes? Minding Cruise and other cult celebs 'round the clock? Minding their children? Homeschooling them?

Given the dwindling numbers of new recruits, I'd say the Mother Ship, Int Mgmt better reverse that order and let the Sea Org start multiplying quick smart; otherwise there aren't going to be any Scientologists left in the cult.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:06 pm 
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Braveheart's Girlfriend wrote:
Jeez, what an education in horrible priorities from the most ethikal group on the planet! Can't spend any money on buildings and staff for childcare centers! How stupidly shortsighted is that?


Just so you know, the childcare situation in the Sea Org is pretty much identical in every religious cult. It's not just a "Scientology" issue.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:46 pm 
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Quoting from the Admin (green) $cn dictionary, I offer you this LRH definition of "GENOCIDE":

" Any of the following acts commited with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group as such: (a) killing members of the group; (b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its destruction in whole or in part; (d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and (e) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (LRH ED 28 INT).

Seems to me DM is doing ALL those things.

DM and his "rat pack" are mostly 2nd generation raised in $cn fanatic nutcakes.

DM reminds me of the story of Moses in the bible, where King Herod ordered all the male babies born to be killed because one of them might overthrow his crown.

He also reminds me of the story of Hitler hiding in his underground bunker during the last days of the 3rd Reich, screaming orders to non-existent troops.

Ladybird


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:06 pm 
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Just so you know, the childcare situation in the Sea Org is pretty much identical in every religious cult. It's not just a "Scientology" issue.
- Lulu Belle

I'm aware of that. What's your point Lulu? Not sure I get why you mention that.

I'm mentioning Sea Org children here because it's a website about Scientology issues. What CoS did and to children of Sea Org members, and presently to staff members amounts to human rights violations, IMO.

"I took my children with me to the Org so that I could be on post. My kids got there at 12:00 PM and did not leave until their mother was done some six hours later. I was forbidden to leave my post to check on them or get them something to eat, because that would be treason according to Jeff the Executive Director. And if I left to go check on them, he would immediately put me into that condition." - Rich Dunning

http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/dunning1.html

And a bigger picture:

http://www.taxexemptchildabuse.net/

This particular cult, CoS, has HEAPS of money they could have, and still could put to use to accommodate members having children. Apparently Hubbard decided the money was more urgently needed elsewhere, and that a couple's wish to have children was not up to them if they wanted to be the "elite" saviours of Teegeack.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:08 pm 
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P.S. Ladybird, didn't Hubbard to those same things? Wasn't Hubbard behind the "no children" policy in the Sea Org?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:22 pm 
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Braveheart's Girlfriend wrote:
Quote:
Just so you know, the childcare situation in the Sea Org is pretty much identical in every religious cult. It's not just a "Scientology" issue.
- Lulu Belle

I'm aware of that. What's your point Lulu? Not sure I get why you mention that.


Because it would surprise people to know how weirdly similar the situation is with childcare in different cults. That it's a cult issue, not just a Scientology issue. I can tell you, it surprised me.

I was reading Margaret Singer's book "Cults In Our Midst." She had a chapter dedicated to children in cults. She was giving a scenario: inadequate childcare in horrible facilities, parents never seeing their kids, kids not being allowed to go to public schools and being "off the radar" of Child Welfare agencies. I just assumed she was talking about Scientology; it was identical to the conditions there. Turned out to be the Children of God.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:50 pm 
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It's a horrible horrible thing, wherever it exists. Thanks for the reference, I read that quite awhile ago, and "cults in our midst" has become a catchphrase - and a good thing, too.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:52 pm 
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"In 1950, Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard was published. The book contains an
curiously high number of references to abortion and attempted abortion.
Here are a few samples:

"And in the case of the ulcers, here was baby poked full of holes (Mama
is having a terrible time trying to abort him so she can pretend a
miscarriage, and she uses assorted household instruments thrust into the
cervix to do it)..."

"Fathers, for instance, suspicious of paternity, sometimes claim while
trouncing and upsetting mothers that they will kill the child if it
isn't like Father."

"The standard attempted abortion case nearly always has an infanthood
and childhood full of Mama assuring him that he cannot remember anything
when he was a baby. She doesn't want him to recall how handy she was, if
unsuccessful, in her efforts with various instruments..."

"Attempted abortion is very common. And remarkably lacking in success.
The mother, every time she injures the child in such a fiendish fashion,
is actually penalizing herself."

"The basic proved to be a mutual abortion attempt by the mother and
father. The mother said she would die if anyone found out.... The father
said the baby was probably like her and he didn't want it. Eighteen
penetrations of the head, throat and shoulders with a long orange-wood
stick - probably in third month. "

One would think that Hubbard was a man who was opposed to abortion,
until evidence surfaced that showed Hubbard was writing from his
PERSONAL experiences performing abortions on his own wife. In 1983 an
interview with L. Ron Hubbard Jr. was published, and it contained this
horrorific description of Ron Jr.'s witnessing his father attempting an
abortion on his mother:

"Hubbard: ... I have a memory of this that goes back to when I was six
years old. It is certainly a problem for my father and for Scientology
that I rememoer this. It was around 1939, 1940, that I watched my father
doing something to my mother. She was lying on the bed and he was
sitting on her, facing her feet. He had a coat hanger in his hand. There
was blood all over the place. I remember my father shouting at me. "Go
back to bed!" A little while later a doctor came and took her off to the
hospital. She didn't talk about it for quite a number of years. Neither
did my father.

Penthouse: He was trying to perform an abortion?

Hubbard: According to him and my mother, he tried to do it with me. I
was born at six and a half months and weighed two pounds, two ounces. I
mean, I wasn't born: this is what came out as a result of their attempt
to abort me. It happened during a night of partying --he got involved in
trying to do a black-magic number. Also, I've got to complete this by
saying that he thought of himself as the Beast 666 incarnate."

If Ron Jr.'s memory was accurate, Hubbard was a hypocrite. While he was
denouncing abortion in public, privately he was busy jabbing at his
wife's uterus with coathangers -- and it is my conclusion based on the
evidence presented here that he had apparently been doing so for years.
It was a miracle she survived."

From: http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/relig ... n-hubbard/

Quote:
"Another startling realization Hubbard made during his years of research was that people with serious physical or mental problems were almost always the victims of dozens of abortion attempts. As he explained it later, "attempted abortion is very common." Each such incident left a mark on the unborn fetus, along with the mother's engagement in sexual intercourse, masturbation, douching, morning sickness, and constipation. This revelation was so unsettling that it drew fire from many critics. For instance:

Hubbard's extensive discussion of things sexual, his concern with abortions, beatings, coitus under duress, flatulence which causes pressure on the foetus, certain cloacal references, all suggest to me a fascination which borders on the obsessive, as if he possessed a deep-seated hatred of women. All of them are being beaten, most of them prove to be unfaithful, few babies are wanted."


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:24 pm 
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Wow, Ladybird, I've never read that before. How creepy.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:07 am 
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Ladybird,

I had read a lot about the crazy stuff that Hubbard did, after I left this mind control cult. But I never read THIS one. This is sickening!


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