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 Post subject: new research of ex-CoS members
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:13 pm 
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*Mod edit: scroll down for update (Jan 7, 2012) viewtopic.php?p=425411#p425411

Thread moved from Media to Opinions & Debate.
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http://avisen.dk/tidligere-scientologer ... 20407.aspx

new research by Lisbeth Rubin shows that many ex-CoS members keep practising scientology, either in another organisation or on their own.

............................................

The research is IMO biased as most of the people interviewed by Rubin were refered to her by people active in Rons org. I think it is impossible for researches to do a true study as they can't get in contact with those who have left both CoS and the scientology belief system.
When I was interviewed by Rubin she called me up later and told that she wouldn't use the data I had given her as I was the only one of the interviewed who didn't practise Scientology anymore.

D


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:08 am 
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Sounds like statistics the LRon way, skewed and not ever very meaningful.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:19 am 
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Kristi Wachter does some interesting stats analysis on her site:
http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/

Quote:
Note: Preliminary analysis suggests that about 60% of people who try Scientology do only a single course or service, that 80% of new members become inactive within 2 years, and that 65% of those who reach the level of Clear become inactive within a year after doing so. The older a list, the more likely that a person listed on it is no longer involved in Scientology.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:33 am 
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Sponge,

I don't see how Kristi Wachter can get reasonably good stats on those ex-SCN who went to various freezone practioners or groups.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:36 am 
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Dorthe,

Would you translate some of the important parts in that article into English?
I would appreciate it. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:21 am 
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programmer_guy wrote:
Sponge,

I don't see how Kristi Wachter can get reasonably good stats on those ex-SCN who went to various freezone practioners or groups.


She can't obviously. I'm giving Kristi's site a shamless plug ;) and I'm just saying that she's quite thorough in what she has done with the Co$ data she has collected over the years (as opposed to the journalist who doesn't have enough reliable data to start with and then apparently rejects Dorthe's because perhaps it doesn't fit in with their preconceived story).

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:26 pm 
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Okay mr programmer guy, You owe me a big cup of coffee for this translation

..............................................................

Flertallet af frafaldne scientologer lever stadig efter Hubbards lære, viser endnu ikke offentliggjort forskning. De frafaldne har fået nok af Scientologys pres og overgreb, men de har ikke fået nok af Scientologys principper.
The majority of ex-scientologist still lives accordingly to Hubbards teachings, shows not yet published research. The ex’es have had enough of Scientology’s pressure and attacks, but they haven’t had enough of Scientology’s principles.

Nogle fortsætter på alternative Scientology-kurser, som koster meget mindre eller er gratis. Andre bliver ved med i al diskretion at leve efter Scientologys principper. Det viser et studie af 59 danskerne, hvoraf 43 har været medlemmer hos Scientology, og resten er frie scientologer uden tilknytning til den officielle kirke.
Some continue on alternative Scientology courses which costs a lot less or are free. Others lives secretly after the Scn principals. This is shown in a study of 59 danes of which 43 has been members of Scientology, and the rest free scientologists without being attached to the official church.

48-årige Klaus Heimann var medlem af Scientology i 21 år, før han forlod organisationen.
»Langsomt kunne jeg se, at jeg var blevet manipuleret i en organisation, som truer, presser og stiller urimelige krav til folk. Det havde intet at gøre med åndelig frihed. Men metoderne, jeg har lært i Scientology, bruger jeg stadig i min hverdag,« siger han.
48-year Klaus Heimann was a member of Scn for 21 years before he left the org.
“Slowly I could see that I was manipulated in an organization which threatens, pressures and demands the impossible of people. It has nothing to do with spiritual freedom. But the methods, I have learned in Scn, I still use in my everyday life”; he says.


Under konstant pres
Under constant pressure


Lisbeth Rubin har lavet undersøgelsen i forbindelse med sin magisterafhandling i religionssociologi ved Københavns Universitet.
Lisbeth Rubin has made an investigation in relation to her masters in religionsociology at Copenhagen University.

»Scientologerne i min undersøgelse er frafaldet kirken, men ikke troen,« siger hun.
”The scientologist in my investigation have left the church but not the faith”; she says.

Alle de tidligere medlemmer har tilsyneladende forladt kirken af samme grund:
All former members it seems have left the church for the same reason:

»De føler, at de var under et konstant pres. Scientology krævede deres arbejdskraft. Før de var færdige med et kursus, skulle de melde sig på det næste. De blev overvåget, og hvis de gjorde noget, som var forbudt, skulle de straks angre - ellers talte andre scientologer ikke med dem,« fortæller forskeren.
They feel they were under a constant pressure. Scn demanded their labour. Before they finished one course they had to sign up for the next. They were under surveillance and if they did something not approved of, they should repent or else other scientologist wouldn’t talk with them", the researcher tells.

Fokus på penge
Focus on money


For Klaus Heimann var det en stor lettelse af forlade Scientology.
For Klaus Heimann it was a big relief to leave Scn.

»Jeg har fået meget bedre tid og økonomi. I dag tager jeg kurser hos en organisation, som består af tidligere højtstående scientologer, som tilbyder samme service. Her er det langt billigere, der er intet pres, og jeg slipper for den enorme fokusering på at skaffe penge, som er i Scientology. Samtidig kan jeg fokusere på det, jeg gerne vil opnå med Scientologien« siger han.
I have much better time and economy. Today I take a course at an organization which consists of earlier high standing scientologist, who offers the same service. Here it is a lot cheaper, there is no pressure and I don’t need to have a lot of focus on getting the money as I did while in Scn. At the same time I can focus on that which I want to achieve with Scientology”, he says.

Ifølge Lisbeth Rubin er Scientology en totalitær religion.
According to Lisbeth Rubin Scn is a totalitarian religion.

»Scientology søger at isolere og kontrollere deres medlemmer,« siger hun.
”Scientology seek to isolate and control their members”; she says.

Anette Refstrup, informationschef fra Scientology, anerkender ikke, at man kan være scientolog uden for kirken.
»Virkelige scientologer har lært at arbejde for en bedre verden og ikke kun se på, hvad de selv kan få ud af Scientology. Den slags initiativer mangler jeg stadig at opleve fra de få, der har stilet sig over på den anden side af hegnet,« siger hun.
Anette Refstrup, information chief from Scn, do not acknowledge that one can be a scientologist outside the church.
“Real scientologists have learned to work for a better world and not just look at what they themselves get out of Scientology. That kind of initative I still lack to experience from the few who have placed themselves on the other side of the fence”, she says.


......................................................................

If you read closely you will see that Danish isn't that hard to read ;)

Dorthe


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:38 am 
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Dorthe wrote:

If you read closely you will see that Danish isn't that hard to read ;)

Dorthe


Well Danish is double-dutch to me. :shock: <-slap ;).

Seriously though, I don't understand the purpose of this journalist's article if it is not being intentionally deceptive. It seems like it is stating that those ex-scientologists that have left the church who still pratice scientology...erm....practice scientology(?). Unless there is some other point I've totally missed then it seems, at the very least, to be a tad meaningless. At worst, it is just flat out wrong and unsupported from the get go; e.g. "The majority of ex-scientologist still lives accordingly to Hubbards teachings, shows not yet published research".

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:55 am 
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Dorthe,

Thank you very much for the translation! :)

One statement I didn't understand:
Quote:
The majority of ex-scientologist still lives accordingly to Hubbards teachings, shows not yet published research.


1. "Not yet published research" means Hubbard's research is not yet published?

....OR....

2. "Not yet published research" means they don't have any published research on how many ex-Scientologists go to the freezone when they leave the Church of Scientology?

Which is it? (Or maybe it means something else that I haven't thought of?)


Best regards,
Larry


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:06 am 
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hej Larry and Sponge

The research is that of Lisbeth Rubin. She hasn't published her study yet.

Maybe I should have translated it with the sentences in another order than the danish.

Does this make sense?
Not yet published research shows that the majority of apostated scientologists still live according to Hubbards teachings.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:20 am 
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Thanks for the reply.

So it is #2 - as I thought it was.

If you get more info (published studies) please post it here. I would like to read that.

Actually, IMO, I don't think that she has any valid statistics on this because many people are private about this and don't just clamour to get onto any polls about this.

Maybe I am wrong BUT I don't see how she could know this with any statistically verifiable certainty.


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 Post subject: Re: new researh of ex-CoS members
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:47 pm 
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Dorthe wrote:
http://avisen.dk/tidligere-scientologer-tror-stadig-hubbard-220407.aspx

new research by Lisbeth Rubin shows that many ex-CoS members keep practising scientology, either in another organisation or on their own.


The important quote is this one, and thanks Dorthe for posting it:

"Anette Refstrup, information chief from Scn, do not acknowledge that one can be a scientologist outside the church."

I've been hoping to find this for a while, an official spokesperson saying that only CoS members can be scientologists. It's the quote to wave at Protestant ministers who are trying to be 'fair' to the cult.

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 Post subject: Re: new researh of ex-CoS members
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:42 pm 
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Lisbeth Rubin (Elisabeth Tuxen Rubin) has a paper:

International Journal for the Study of New Religions, Vol 2, No 2 (2011)
Disaffiliation Among Scientologists; A Sociological Study of Post Apostasy Behaviour and Attitudes
Elisabeth Tuxen Rubin


Abstract:
Far too little literature focuses on the phenomenon of disaffiliation/apostasy, in particular when it comes to research on the exit process, the post-exit adjustment period, and what becomes of the apostates and their faith or lack thereof. In the contemporary sociology of religion it is a general perception that loss of faith is one of the primary reasons why individuals leave religious movements. However this assumption lacks an empirical foundation. This article highlights some of the conclusions derived from a study of a large group of Danish ex-Scientologists, with emphasis on their religious behaviour and attitudes immediately following their exit and, for some, more than 20 years later. Surprisingly, this study found that disaffiliated Scientologists were in fact still practising Scientology.

http://www.equinoxjournals.com/IJSNR/article/view/13524
Full Text: PDF (Price: £12.00)

-------------------

Blog:
http://rubins.dk
Twitter:
http://twitter.com/tuxenrubin

Recent (October 2011) article in Kristeligt Dagblad briefly quoting her:
Scientology høster penge gennem lektiehjælp
Scientology reaps money through tuition
http://www.kristeligt-dagblad.dk/artikel/436854:Kirke---tro--Scientology-hoester-penge-gennem-lektiehjaelp?all=1

Other discussion:
WWP: http://forums.whyweprotest.net/threads/ ... udes.98468

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Last edited by Sponge on Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: new research of ex-CoS members
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:28 pm 
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From the report:
“This is shown in a study of 59 danes of which 43 has been members of Scientology..”

This is statistically unsound conclusion because the group (59 members) is too small to draw any conclusion. In study like this one usually a group of 1000 members is used to draw a valuable conclusion.

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 Post subject: Re: new research of ex-CoS members
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:28 pm 
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DLRH, the media article is from 2007. The paper appears to be recent (2011?), probably after the completion of the study group you criticise.

Quote:
"This article highlights some of the conclusions derived from a study of a large group of Danish ex-Scientologists"

Whether the "large" study group ended up being larger for the final paper than was quoted in a four year old media article, I couldn't say. Contact the author and ask.

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