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 Post subject: Paging Ladayla . . .
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:38 pm 
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On the thread entitled "Free Zone?" you wrote:
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I think that scn deals with wholetrack better than any other practice, 'cept maybe hypnosis. I am not aware of any other practice that focuses on wholetrack.

That thread seems to have died, but would you please comment further?
Whenever I’ve raised the question of hypnosis, it has elicited agitation from FZers here - or they’ve refused to discuss, just repeating over & over that auditing is not hypnotic. This is baffling to me, since I've experienced both Scn auditing and hypnotherapy and see many parallels. I would like to know your thoughts on hypnosis, especially vis-à-vis auditing.


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 Post subject: Re: Paging Ladayla . . .
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:07 pm 
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songbird wrote:
On the thread entitled "Free Zone?" you wrote:
Quote:
I think that scn deals with wholetrack better than any other practice, 'cept maybe hypnosis. I am not aware of any other practice that focuses on wholetrack.

That thread seems to have died, but would you please comment further?
Whenever I’ve raised the question of hypnosis, it has elicited agitation from FZers here - or they’ve refused to discuss, just repeating over & over that auditing is not hypnotic. This is baffling to me, since I've experienced both Scn auditing and hypnotherapy and see many parallels. I would like to know your thoughts on hypnosis, especially vis-à-vis auditing.



My thoughts are just that. While I am an expert insofar as auditing goes. I have no training in hypnosis. I know only what a layman knows about hypnosis. I had ( deceased) a good friend who was a hyonotist, and I have seen them as entertainers, and I have read a few books on the subject, but that is as far as my knowledge goes.
My own experience has been that I have caused many many people to 'go exterior', especially while doing TR0, by simply intending them to do it. I have caused engrams in others to erase by my intending them to erase. I cam move mental mass off a person by intending it to move off. I have helped lots of PCs blow BTs by simply intending the BT to blow. Dozens of times I have created a floating TA on others by simply expecting the TA to float. I had a bit of a reputation for that at ASHO.
That may not be hypnosis, but I think it will do until the real thing comes along. When one person imposes his will on another person, and thus causes the other to act or believe in a certain way, I think that fits the definition of hypnosis. All the training that an auditor does is geared toward his being able and willing to direct others. Control them, if needed or wanted, and that seems to fit into the hypnosis category.
Thanks for asking.

la


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 Post subject: Re: Paging Ladayla . . .
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:09 pm 
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My thoughts are just that. While I am an expert insofar as auditing goes. I have no training in hypnosis. I know only what a layman knows about hypnosis. I had ( deceased) a good friend who was a hyonotist, and I have seen them as entertainers, and I have read a few books on the subject, but that is as far as my knowledge goes.
My own experience has been that I have caused many many people to 'go exterior', especially while doing TR0, by simply intending them to do it. I have caused engrams in others to erase by my intending them to erase. I cam move mental mass off a person by intending it to move off. I have helped lots of PCs blow BTs by simply intending the BT to blow. Dozens of times I have created a floating TA on others by simply expecting the TA to float. I had a bit of a reputation for that at ASHO.
That may not be hypnosis, but I think it will do until the real thing comes along. When one person imposes his will on another person, and thus causes the other to act or believe in a certain way, I think that fits the definition of hypnosis. All the training that an auditor does is geared toward his being able and willing to direct others. Control them, if needed or wanted, and that seems to fit into the hypnosis category.
Thanks for asking.

la[/quote]

Facinating la,

Thanks for your post. I was wondering if (and hoping) you might offer a few additional insights based on your experience, in reference to a bit of elaboration on a few comments you made above?

For example, you wrote that you "caused many people to go exterior... by simply intending them to do it".

My question is, did you ever experiencing "intending" someone to go exterior and they didn't do it? Or was your intention more or less 100%?

The same question would go for your (or any auditors) ability to cause engrams to erase, mental mass to move off, BTs to blow and TA's to float, based on intention (coupled with technique).

If such an intention were demonstratable, even at greater than 50% of the time it was engaged, that would be a most remarkable and profound testament to the presence of a near indisputable reality to, well, something never demonstratable before. Certainly something far exceeding the general run of the mill hypnosis phenomena.

Also, when you speak of someone going exterior, do you mean that phrase "going exterior" to be an objective reality? or a subjective state? or both? or neither? or some combination of the two?

Rephrased, what exactly do "you" mean by the phrase "going exterior" (without "directing" me to a Hubbard dictionary, lol).

I appreciate your experience and value your interpretations.

Thanks,
Augustus


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:20 pm 
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Thaks, Ladayla, for your reply.

This sentence . . .
Quote:
I think that scn deals with wholetrack better than any other practice, 'cept maybe hypnosis.

. . . plus your having mentioned involvement with other practices such as New Age, led me to think that you might have some specialized knowledge of hypnosis or might have trained in it. Thus my question.

Quote:
My own experience has been that I have caused many many people to 'go exterior', especially while doing TR0, by simply intending them to do it. I have caused engrams in others to erase by my intending them to erase. I cam move mental mass off a person by intending it to move off. I have helped lots of PCs blow BTs by simply intending the BT to blow. Dozens of times I have created a floating TA on others by simply expecting the TA to float. I had a bit of a reputation for that at ASHO.

Just curious ... how do you know that it was your intending which produced these responses and not the other person's? Or something else going on - such as sounds in the room during TR0?

Quote:
When one person imposes his will on another person, and thus causes the other to act or believe in a certain way, I think that fits the definition of hypnosis. All the training that an auditor does is geared toward his being able and willing to direct others. Control them, if needed or wanted, and that seems to fit into the hypnosis category.

I would describe hypnotherapy (of which there are many different types) as more of a cooperative process than a control one. Certainly, the hypnotherapist is directing the session, but there isn't the level of control that one finds in Scientology auditing. For example, a hypnotherapist would not physically prevent the subject from leaving the room during session (nor indeed restrain the subject physically in any way), whereas a Scn auditor will.

Another distinction that comes to mind: Whereas, in Scn auditing the reactive mind is viewed as a sort of enemy ("it's you and your auditor against the bank") in hypnotherapy, the subconscious is viewed as an ally in the quest for self understanding and self improvement.

My theory on why LRH took such pains to make hypnosis taboo for Scientologists is that he didn't want them to try hypnotherapy and discover the many parallels to auditing - didn't want them to know that they could achieve "gains" through other means, without the high cost and totalitarian control of CoS. :)


Last edited by songbird on Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:46 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:59 pm 
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This is a very interesting thread. I agree with Ladayla, but I would put it differently. I have translated the very real "wins" (floating TA, blown engrams, blown bts, etc) I have seen in my PCs to the very real wins people have in life. A good friend who really understands (duplicates) you, or a Doctor who reassures you, or anybody who really cares and really listens just plain makes you feel better and helps clarify and focus your thoughts.

You don't need secret rote processes or a fake lie detector to help people. You just have to be there and honestly care.

Ladybird


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:31 am 
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Spoken like an auditor LB.


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 Post subject: Re: Paging Ladayla . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:42 pm 
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Facinating la,

Thanks for your post. I was wondering if (and hoping) you might offer a few additional insights based on your experience, in reference to a bit of elaboration on a few comments you made above?

For example, you wrote that you "caused many people to go exterior... by simply intending them to do it".


My question is, did you ever experiencing "intending" someone to go exterior and they didn't do it? Or was your intention more or less 100%?

I was asked to do TRs with many new people who came into the Org. It would take about 5 or 10 minutes of TR0 and the person would say something like " O wow! This is incredible! I have never felt like this before."
Sometimes they would say that they were looking at their body, or some such. It was close to 100% of the time on TR0. Then, of course, they would go to the Reg.

The same question would go for your (or any auditors) ability to cause engrams to erase, mental mass to move off, BTs to blow and TA's to float, based on intention (coupled with technique).

I dunno about other Auditors. You'd have to ask them. One thing about this, is that I did not do this as a routine thing. Needless to say, it did not add to the stat of ' hours in the chair'. While working in the HGC's my hat was mostly as a Review Auditor. I got PCs who were already messed up. Sometimes I'd get a "red tag", or a "RAP" ( refund) cycle. Sometimes it was more on purpose to just blow one of these guys out of the mass he was stuck in than it would be to let him try to run his whole case in Review. My purpose being to get the person up the Bridge.

If such an intention were demonstratable, even at greater than 50% of the time it was engaged, that would be a most remarkable and profound testament to the presence of a near indisputable reality to, well, something never demonstratable before. Certainly something far exceeding the general run of the mill hypnosis phenomena.

Also, when you speak of someone going exterior, do you mean that phrase "going exterior" to be an objective reality? or a subjective state? or both? or neither? or some combination of the two?

Subjective, as I understand your question. Subjective to them. It was in a way , objective to me as they would voice something to indicate it, and if on the meter, their needle would go into a dial wide, persistent float. And they would be grinning or laughing, and, more than once, tears of joy.

Rephrased, what exactly do "you" mean by the phrase "going exterior" (without "directing" me to a Hubbard dictionary, lol).

There are some gradients on it, I think. I think that when the "awareness unit" moves out from the body, the person can be said to be exterior. Early on, some druggies will exteriorize into a drug bank. So while they can be said to be exterior to their body, they are not exterior to their bank. Some others with heavy bank will exteriorize into their bank. That is why the drug rundowns are done before major actions. ( This is just my think, BTW. I don't presume to say that this is written by lrh. Maybe it is, maybe not). Sometimes, early on, the PC will be running a process and he will suddenly go "out of session" with a comment about the roses outside on the sidewalk, the needle phenom will occur, and he will be happier than 'a pig in shit' ( as we say in the South). As one moves up the Bridge he becomes more and more aware of being exterior. He realizes that he is not his body. Normally the way he realizes that is that he goes exterior to it. To me, it seems a totally natural state, and the bruhaha about it is misplaced. Whatever. You will note that on the upper Bridge, such as NOTS, the PC is expected to be exterior in order to run the processes.

I appreciate your experience and value your interpretations.

Thanks,
Augustus[/quote]

Thank you for your interest.

la


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 Post subject: Re: Paging Ladayla . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:55 pm 
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songbird wrote:
On the thread entitled "Free Zone?" you wrote:
Quote:
I think that scn deals with wholetrack better than any other practice, 'cept maybe hypnosis. I am not aware of any other practice that focuses on wholetrack.

That thread seems to have died, but would you please comment further?
Whenever I’ve raised the question of hypnosis, it has elicited agitation from FZers here - or they’ve refused to discuss, just repeating over & over that auditing is not hypnotic. This is baffling to me, since I've experienced both Scn auditing and hypnotherapy and see many parallels. I would like to know your thoughts on hypnosis, especially vis-à-vis auditing.



Will you please comment further about the parallels that you have observed between hypnosis and auditing?
Really the only reason that I mentioned hypnosis is because I know that it is a method of regression ( whole track). However, I do know that LRH was a master hypnotist. I have seen him hypnotize fairly large groups of people.

la

la


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:04 pm 
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La,
I do not object to your beliefs.

I feel that Ladybird has broken down the true value of auditing very nicely.

I do want to point out that the Hubbard's theory of the reactive/analytical mind has been proven false. Thus 'engrams' a term he created have been proven to not exist. Thus you can not have 'caused' any engrams to do anything because engrams do not exist.

_________________
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:07 pm 
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songbird wrote:
Thaks, Ladayla, for your reply.
I would describe hypnotherapy (of which there are many different types) as more of a cooperative process than a control one. Certainly, the hypnotherapist is directing the session, but there isn't the level of control that one finds in Scientology auditing. For example, a hypnotherapist would not physically prevent the subject from leaving the room during session (nor indeed restrain the subject physically in any way), whereas a Scn auditor will.


While there are drills in which the auditor is taught to prevent a PC from leaving a session, I have never known this to happen in real auditing. Not to say that it has never happened, but it would be very very rare.
The PC has co-operated. He has agreed that there is no reason not to have a session. He has agreed that it is OK for this auditor to audit him. The pre-session patter is rote, and could easily act as an hypnotic, since the same patter is used prior to every session. Also the repetitive commands could act as an hypnotic. I say " could". Not "Do".

Another distinction that comes to mind: Whereas, in Scn auditing the reactive mind is viewed as a sort of enemy ("it's you and your auditor against the bank") in hypnotherapy, the subconscious is viewed as an ally in the quest for self understanding and self improvement.


That is a big difference, all right.

My theory on why LRH took such pains to make hypnosis taboo for Scientologists is that he didn't want them to try hypnotherapy and discover the many parallels to auditing - didn't want them to know that they could achieve "gains" through other means, without the high cost and totalitarian control of CoS. :)



I think that you are prolly correct. Same reason that he was adamant about the ( non) use of drugs.


la


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:53 am 
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Ladayla wrote:
Will you please comment further about the parallels that you have observed between hypnosis and auditing?

Yes, of course, I’ll share my thoughts on this. I want to make clear that I’m neither a Scn auditor nor a hypnotherapist. I have experience with both of these processes as the subject - not the practitioner.

I’ll give you a brief overview of my experience with hypnotherapy - you can judge for yourself whether you see similarities to Scn auditing. Then, I’ll share some of what I’ve learned in reading about & researching these subjects.

What would you call a process that goes like this: Identify a series of related trauma-inducing incidents by time, place, form and event, working in reverse chronology to identify “earlier similar� incidents. Run through those incidents until they are as-is’d and charge is gone ... postulates based on those incidents are changed. This was what I experienced in hypnotherapy; it was also what I experienced in Scn auditing.

The hypnotherapy, which I did a couple of years after leaving CoS, was targeted to deal with a specific issue: a lifelong phobia. To my complete surprise, in one, fairly inexpensive hypnotherapy session, this phobia was eliminated. Four years later, it has not recurred - it is permanently gone. I'm delighted, and family & friends who know how this phobia had interfered with my life are happy for me.

In the hypnotherapy session, there was no wide-ranging “list� as there is in Scn auditing. There was no wandering into other subjects or other lifetimes. We were there to deal with the phobia - we did the process that I've just described, focusing on that phobia - it worked. End of story. At the conclusion of the hypnotherapy session, I felt a sense of relaxation and well being, but not the euphoria that I had experienced while “exteriorized� at the end of Scn auditing sessions.

In a discussion on the Tech Outside CoS thread in October 2004, BasicBasic and I had this exchange:
Quote:
BB: For me it (hypnosis) means not being in control. I have always been in control in all my auditing. This usually manifested as agreeing to follow the auditing commands on a self determined basis.

SB: As I experienced it, hypnosis was not a gold watch swinging back & forth slowly as I was powerless, controlled, and conditioned to do someone else's bidding. It was as you describe auditing: an agreement with the commands (suggestions) on a self-determined basis.

I truly wish that you could bring yourself to try some hypnosis ~ I believe that the comparison would both deepen your understanding of auditing and raise some interesting questions for you.

BB: Next you'll be telling me my solo sessions are self Hypnotism.

SB: No dice. It's not up to me to "evaluate" your solo auditing experiences. However, I will suggest that you examine the possibility.


Sea Ogre, a former Sea Org member who is now a licensed hypnotherapist, posted this (part of the same thread) on October 21, 2004:
Sea Ogre wrote:
I have seen people handle their life ruin in one hypnotherapy session. They may have never handled it in scientology or if they did it would have cost a fortune and they would have given up their freedom to get it.


And this … same thread, October 2004:
Sea Ogre wrote:
Hypnotism is a relaxed state where you are in control but your mind (analytical) is relaxed so it doesn't get in the way. The amazing thing about it is how targeted it is. You ask a person to follow a particular emotion, feeling or pain and go to the earliest time and bingo they are there. The basic is handled and their life gets better. It is so much faster and more effective than Hubbard’s bridge. You've got a problem, the problem gets addressed and handled usually in one session and eureka you didn't need the comm course or 14 other things to get the problem handled. Now that is simple! That's what Hubbard said of scientology but you and I know that that is big quantities of bull shit. Truth is simple. The farther you get from simple, the farther you get from truth.


This exchange with BasicBasic (same thread):
Quote:
BB: Why is this called "hypnotherapy"?
It doesn't apparently involve hypnosis. What is the name of the therapy, if different to Hypnotherapy? Possibly you are describing "dianetic reverie". I didn't do book one but did NED. The PC in heavy incidents could seem to go to sleep in "boil off".

SB: Hypnotherapy is the use of hypnosis for therapeutic purposes. The main ingredients of this approach include: (1) deep relaxation, (2) intense concentration, and (3) high suggestibility on the part of the subject. During hypnosis, the hypnotist uses techniques that foster a very relaxed state in which resistance is lowered. Then, suggestions are given that are related to the purpose of the procedure, or the subject's mind or imagination is explored in order to gain insight or access to memories. Contrary to popular myth, a person will not engage in any behavior that is against his or her will, either during the procedure or afterwards. That is, the person is not controlled by the hypnotherapist.

There was no time during hypnosis (nor during Scn auditing) when I was asleep, though the term "reverie" would fit for some of my experiences in both Scn auditing and hypnosis. In both, what I was most aware of was a heightened concentration.


An important distinction between hypnotherapy and Scn auditing was that, in hypnotherapy, it was I and I alone who identified when the “charge� had been eliminated - whereas, in Scn auditing it is the auditor, via the E-meter. It works like this:
Quote:
What happens in an auditing session is that the auditor asks the preclear, or pc, to locate a moment of trauma in his or her life. The pc is indoctrinated to believe that similar traumatic or painful experiences (such as all the times when you hurt your knee, or all the times when you missed your mother) are linked in the mind. If the pc tells the auditor about a certain moment of trauma and there is nothing earlier holding it in place, then once the pc has revisited that moment, the upset connected with that moment will vanish. But if there are earlier similar moments of trauma, it will be necessary for the pc to revisit those earlier moments before the trauma connected with that particular "chain" will vanish. The auditor decides whether or not there are earlier similar experiences by the behavior of the needle on the E-meter. If it is free-floating, the chain is finished. If not, there is something earlier.

Now let's see how this plays out in an auditing session.

Your auditor asks you to recall a time when you lost a friend. You tell him in as much detail as possible about a time when your best friend moved to another state. The auditor thanks you, and then asks you for an earlier similar time when you lost a friend. From this you know that the auditor did not see a free-floating needle and therefore knows you still have earlier traumas connected with this question. Believing that this is the way the mind works, you dutifully search your memory for an earlier time when you lost a friend. You remember a time when you were six and you and your neighbor had to start school at different schools. You remember crying and begging your mother to let you go to the same school as Sally. You hadn't remembered that in a long time. You hadn't realized you still had so much trauma connected with Sally.

You think you're finished with that chain of traumas. But your auditor asks you again for an earlier similar incident. You can't remember anything earlier than that and you tell your auditor so. Your auditor is very understanding and tells you to let him know whatever comes into your mind. You want to do what your auditor says because you trust him, so you try to remember another similar experience. You close your eyes and let your mind float a little bit.

You see a picture in your mind of someone lying on the ground. Your auditor says, "What's that?" Then you know that there is some validity to the picture you just saw, because the auditor saw a response on the E-meter. Now you look more closely at this picture. You start to add details to the picture you saw. The auditor asks you when this experience happened. The year 1864 comes into your mind. You say this to your auditor. He acknowledges you and helps you fill in more details of what is happening.

Soon you can describe a full-blown scenario to your auditor. You are on a battlefield with lots of other soldiers. You are looking down at a young man in a blue uniform with blood all over his chest. You kneel down and cradle his head while he dies. "I'll miss you," he says, and you start to cry as he dies in your arms.

Oh! You tell your auditor tearfully, now you understand why losing friends has always been such a terrible thing for you. Your auditor smiles at you approvingly and tells you that your needle is floating.

In Scientology they call this "going whole track." The Whole Track is a reference to the entire history of the universe that goes back millions and millions of years.

In auditing, the preclear is utterly dependent upon the auditor to confirm that these incidents are real. It all depends on what the E-meter is doing. If the meter says the incident is real, then it is. Gradually it becomes easier and easier for the preclear to believe that these past life incidents really happened. The preclear's boundaries gradually fall away completely, until there is no limit at all on what might have happened. It doesn't matter, after all. No matter what the preclear says, the auditor always smiles and says his needle is floating.

Now you have had hundreds of hours of Dianetics and Grade auditing. Your idea of what is real has completely changed. You know you are different from other people, because now you know that you have lived for millions of years. You know it is true because you've relived so many experiences in your auditing. You feel set apart from other people who have not yet discovered the truth. You want your family to experience the truth too, but you can't tell them. They wouldn't believe you. They have to experience it for themselves. You're spending your time with other Scientologists now, because it's uncomfortable to be around non-Scientologists. They don't understand. Scientologists are the only ones who know what reality really is.

Now when your auditor asks you for an earlier similar incident, you don't have to be coaxed into finding a picture. You know what to do. Now, as soon as the auditor asks the question, a picture appears. There is no longer any difference in your mind between something that happened yesterday, and something that happened 300 years ago, or 25,000 years ago, or a million years
ago.

All Scientologists believe that these incidents they find in their auditing really happened to them. They believe that they have memories going back thousands of years, millions of years, even billions of years. This is encouraged by the auditing process, in which the preclear is repeatedly told, "What is true for you is true for you." In practice, this means that the auditor validates as real anything the preclear comes up with in session, no matter how far-fetched it may be.

Moreover, the preclear is not allowed to discuss all of this with anyone but his auditor. Husbands and wives are not permitted to talk about what happens in their auditing sessions. Friends are required to report on each other if someone talks about an incident from their auditing. So the preclear is left without any way of keeping himself anchored in the real world. There is no way to verify whether or not something is true or imaginary.

Preclears who do not give their auditors incidents prior to this lifetime are required to undergo a Whole Track Remedy before they are allowed to go onto their upper levels. So this belief in a personal history stretching back millions of years is a required part of the preclear's reality in order to progress up the Bridge to Total Freedom.

In my opinion, this insistence on letting go of any boundaries for what is true and what is imaginary, and the requirement that one is not allowed to compare notes with anyone else about what is coming up in the auditing sessions, is all part of a gradual indoctrination that prepares people for what they will be required to accept as reality on the upper levels.
-- Excerpted from the essay “My Perspective on Auditing� by Stacy Brooks.
I recommend reading the entire essay - it’s fascinating. Link here:
http://lisatrust.bogie.nl/scientology/e ... y-tech.htm

The Anderson Report included a thorough analysis of the similarities between hypnosis and Scn auditing.
Here’s the link:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shel ... /ar18.html

Other books and articles that comment on hypnosis & Scn are listed at the end of this essay in the section entitled “Suggestions for Further Reading�
http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/7.htm

Ladayla wrote:
The pre-session patter is rote, and could easily act as an hypnotic, since the same patter is used prior to every session. Also the repetitive commands could act as an hypnotic. I say " could". Not "do".

I agree with you that the rote patter pre-session and the repetitive commands can act as hypnotic. After just a few sessions, I didn't even need the patter. I'd enter the auditing room, sit down, take the cans and go into trance. Wow ~ was I a cooperative PC! :)
Re your mention of LRH doing mass hypnosis, was this Scn "group processing"? That was the most heavily hypnotic experience that I had in CoS - group processing.

I hope that answers, Ladalya.
~~~ Songbird


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:43 pm 
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A couple of other thoughts …
Quote:
Songbird: Another distinction that comes to mind: Whereas, in Scn auditing the reactive mind is viewed as a sort of enemy ("it's you and your auditor against the bank") in hypnotherapy, the subconscious is viewed as an ally in the quest for self understanding and self improvement.

Ladayla: That is a big difference, all right.

To me, Hubbard's scenario of the fragmented mind at war with itself seems very unhealthy. Carried to an extreme - which it is when people have been auditing on OT 7 alone in a room hour after hour, year after year - it has produced psychosis often enough that CoS had to develop a procedure to deal with it: “baby watch.� For this reason alone, I wouldn’t want to do any further Scn auditing.

By contrast, for me, working with the subconscious cooperatively in hypnotherapy was a gentle, comfortable process - much prefer it.

Quote:
Ladayla: My own experience has been that I have caused many many people to 'go exterior', especially while doing TR0, by simply intending them to do it. I have caused engrams in others to erase by my intending them to erase. I cam move mental mass off a person by intending it to move off. I have helped lots of PCs blow BTs by simply intending the BT to blow. Dozens of times I have created a floating TA on others by simply expecting the TA to float. I had a bit of a reputation for that at ASHO.

Songbird: Just curious ... how do you know that it was your intending which produced these responses and not the other person's? Or something else going on - such as sounds in the room during TR0?

I really am very curious about this. How DO you know that it was your intending rather than the other person's?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:51 pm 
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Quote:
Songbird wrote: ...Excerpted from the essay “My Perspective on Auditing� by Stacy Brooks.
I recommend reading the entire essay - it’s fascinating. Link here:
http://lisatrust.bogie.nl/scientology/e ... y-tech.htm


I had to read this whole article because when I skimmed through the exerpt before noticing who wrote it, I thought you were quoting me! NOT that I am as good a writer as Stacy, but I recognized things I have said, and this is a totally accurate description of my experience with auditing.

This IS a great article, thanks for reposting it! I agree with what you, Stacy and Ladayla have said so far...I would like to add some things about "False Memory Syndrome"

Quote:
Stacy Brooks: "Anyone who is familiar with False Memory Syndrome may be feeling by now that auditing is a classic example of it. That is certainly how I feel about it now. I think all of this telling me what happened to me millions of years ago and then getting me to "remember" these things until I "confirmed" it by the E-meter is nothing more than coercing me into creating memories to further someone else's agenda."


There have been a lot of new developements in FMS in recent years, I recommend looking into it.

Quote:
False memory syndrome scam leads to lawsuit and big settlement:

On November 6, 1997 the New York Times reported that while undergoing
psychiatric therapy at a big Chicago hospital from 1986-1992, a woman
says she was convinced
by doctors that she had memories of being part of a satanic cult, being
sexually abused by numerous men and abusing her own two sons.

She says that hypnosis and other treatments caused her to believe she
remembered cannibalizing people, so much so that her husband brought in
a hamburger from a family picnic and therapists agreed to test the meat
to see if it was human.

Lawyers for the woman said that insurance companies for two doctors and
a hospital, Rush-Presbyterian-St. Lukes, had agreed to pay $10.6
million, the biggest settlement in a lawsuit alleging that therapists
had instilled false memories in part of a growing legal
backlash against therapies that try to illicit suppressed recollections.



Quote:
"The issue for repressed memories is validation -- and validation in
every case when it appears...To treat for repressed memories without
any effort at external validation is malpractice pure and simple;
malpractice on the basis of standards of care that have developed out
of the history of psychiatric service -- as with witches -- and
malpractice because a misdirection of therapy will injure the patient
and the family.
-- Paul McHugh, MD
Chief of Psychiatry, Johns Hopkins Hospital
Paper presented at Memory and Reality Conference, April 1993


This might a good premise for a lawsuit against the cult, as their auditing and training techniques are clearly based on implanting false memories and hypnotic techniques.

Ladybird


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:48 pm 
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Ladybird,
I'm glad that Stacy's essay resonated with you. I consider it the very best explanation I've ever read of how & why Scn auditing is manipulative ... whether done in CoS or FZ.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:41 pm 
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Posts: 8290
False memory syndrome can indeed be dangerous.
During any type of of regression therapy, a client
should never be told that their past life or childhood
memories are the absolute unvarnished truth.

This is why most therapists take a neutral stance and
explain that memories are not always 100% accurate.

This is why the tech is dangerous.

Hubbard has people believing things that might not be true.


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