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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 4:35 am 
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Dr. Bruce Perry, CHILDREN IN CULTS

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Dr.%2BBruce%2BPerry,%2BChildren%2Bin%2BCults%2Bgroup:alt.religion.scientology&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=14620-3C98B3CC-16%40storefull-2271.public.lawson.webtv.net&rnum=1

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:44 am 
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Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas: The Role of Experts During the Standoff

http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacofour.html

(Psychiatrist) Dietz thought that the FBI should try to undermine Koresh's leadership role within the compound; for example, by driving a wedge between Koresh and Schneider, impeding communication within the compound by creating h -1h volume external noise, or by communicating information to Koresh's followers that would make them question Koresh's infallibility.

Dietz next contacted the FBI commanders on Wednesday, March 10, 1993, to advise that he had seen a television interview with self-described "cult expert" Rick Ross. Ross stated during the interview that he hoped Koresh would prove to be a coward who would prefer to write a book and sell the movie rights from prison rather than end up as a corpse. Dietz thought Ross' televised equation of surrender with cowardice could set back negotiations substantially if Koresh had seen the broadcast.

During the next few weeks the FBI's Behavioral Sciences Unit at Quantico contacted Dietz occasionally to seek his advice about the progress of the negotiations. On March 11, Behavioral Sciences told Dietz that Koresh had refused to speak to the negotiators for two days. Dietz could not provide any explanation for the impasse. On March 25 and 30 1993, Behavioral Sciences updated Dietz on continuing problems in the progress of negotiations. Dietz suggested that the negotiators' strategy may have been inconsistent with other FBI actions, and that more frequent strategy meetings were needed. Dietz also suggested organizing a fake fan nail campaign to persuade Koresh to surrender.

Finally, on Saturday, April 17, 1993, the FBI requested immediate input from Dietz regarding the prospects for continued negotiations. (This was done as part of the FBI's compilation of all relevant information at the request of the Attorney General).

Dietz prepared a memorandum and faxed it to FBI headquarters. Dietz made the following points:

(1) It was still a mistake to allow ATF to participate in the negotiations, since ATF's participation significantly impaired the chances of a peaceful resolution;

(2.) The FBI's negotiation strategies were "repeatedly undermined by ancillary actions," such as shutting off electricity;

(3) Continuing to negotiate in good faith would not resolve the situation, because Koresh would not come out; Koresh would "continue to make sexual use of any children who remain inside" (for further discussion of child physical and sexual abuse inside the compound see pages 215-226 below); and

(4) the continued deterioration of living conditions inside the compound would eventually force the FBI to take some action to save innocent life well before Koresh would ever voluntarily surrender.

Dietz's April 17, 1993 memorandum was provided to the Attorney General as part of the binder of documents supporting the FBI's request for approval of the April 19 tear gas operation.


E. "Cult Experts"

The FBI did not solicit advice from any "cult experts" or "cult deprogrammers."
The FBI did receive a number of unsolicited offers of assistance from former Branch Davidian member Marc Breault (who has since published a paperback book about Koresh and the Branch Davidians).

The FBI also received input from two self-described cult experts, Rick Ross (who moved to a hotel in Dallas, and later to Waco, during the standoff and appeared on local television programs, as well as the CNN broadcast of March 10 that upset Dr. Dietz) and Kelli Waxman. Following are brief summaries of the input received from these three individuals:

Waxman: Waxman has assisted local police agencies in Arizona in dealing with Satanist religious groups. on March 1, 1993, she called the FBI, and requested that she be interviewed regarding her knowledge of cults in general and the Branch Davidians in particular. Later that day an FBI agent interviewed Waxman. Waxman said the FBI should be cautious in dealing with Koresh, because the Branch Davidians probably had a suicide pact or procedure already in place. Waxman said that if Koresh were to permit all the children to leave, then mass suicide would be the next step. She predicted that the FBI would "have another Jonestown on its hands."

Ross: Ross contacted the FBI on March 4, 1993 and requested that he be interviewed regarding his knowledge of cults in general and the Branch Davidians in particular. Ross said that he had been familiar with the Branch Davidians for several years, and had known several former Davidians. Ross provided information about Koresh to the Waco Tribune Herald for its series about the Branch Davidians. Ross also had been in contact with Steve Schneider's sister, who had asked him to help devise a strategy to "deprogram" Schneider. The ATF also contacted Ross in January 1993 for information about Koresh. Ross also telephoned the FBI on March 27 and March 28, offering advice about negotiation strategies. Ross suggested that the FBI attempt to embarrass Koresh by informing other members of the compound about Koresh's faults and failures in life, in order to convince them that Koresh was not the prophet they had been led to believe.

The FBI did not "rely" on Ross for advice whatsoever during the standoff. The FBI interviewed Ross only at Ross' request, and politely declined his unsolicited offers of assistance throughout the standoff. The FBI treated the information Ross supplied as it would any other unsolicited information received from the public: it evaluated the credibility of the information and treated it accordingly.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:46 pm 
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information Ross supplied..."

Thats a snitch.

Thanks Tom and Tigger for ruining the continuity of another thread.
Thats several this week alone.

Umike

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 4:04 pm 
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Tigger,

You seemed to have proven Umike's assertion that Rick Ross WAS at Waco and that he participated in some small way at least.

I don't get the point of belaboring this side discussion about Waco. It proves nothing, and distracts from the analysis of Bernie's website.

How about starting a new thread about Waco? I would be interested in reading several opinions about that disaster.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 4:09 pm 
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Thank you thank you Galileo. I've been away from my computer and the thread ran off to Waco. Let's get back to Bernie.

Umike, I am interested in your reaction to the minimum wage discussion.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:48 pm 
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Gee, all the BS UMike has spit on this thread and I get blamed for "runining" it?

What it proves, Dear Galileo, is that UMike was either lying or didn't know what he was talking about when he (UMike) said: "He (Rick Ross) was in favor of the compound being stormed which resulted in the deaths."

It was to psychiatrists and "religious" experts or cult apologists to whom the FBi turned and listened.

Many people think the F.B.I. would have been better off if they had consulted some cult experts instead of "religious scholars and psychologists who may have had little or no experience dealing with a cultic situation.


Don Carlo......Don't worry.....When I transfer your analysis to a.r.s.....I leave all the OCMB posts behind (including UMike's BS)

BTW the Ball of Fluff Girl has jumped in on this thread a couple of times on a.r.s.

And Arnie Lerma emailed "Miss Marple" to say thanks....."Miss Marple" explained who the real author was.

Most a.r.s.ers are too busy engaging in flame wars, but if one appears that you would like to answer.....clue me in, post it here and "Miss Marple" will deliver it. (i.e. put a big ATTENTION TIGGER.....at the top.....I am not reading most of these until I transfer them.....but I saw Waco and UMike and I knew some BS would be flying in.

Tigger

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:51 pm 
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Tigger,

You got blamed by Umike, not me. I just wanted you to take it to another thread.

"What it proves, Dear Galileo, is that UMike was either lying or didn't know what he was talking about when he (UMike) said: "He (Rick Ross) was in favor of the compound being stormed which resulted in the deaths.""

It proves nothing of the kind. I would like to see Umike's proof or corroboration of what he asserts about Rick Ross on another thread, and your rebuttal.

Fair enough?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:46 pm 
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Im sorry DC. Oh boy..well. Im not sure how to respond.
Of all the evangelical type organizations Im sure scientology ranks at the top of abusing ALL labor laws.
They always have and always will. This is not an area of my expertise at all. No doubt they have been rippng people off for wages and violated many laws. I just dont have any problem believing whatever you present regarding this.

Umike

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 12:46 am 
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"Umike'...

Can you post some specific examples that YOU know of "scientology ranks at the top of abusing ALL labor laws".

*I* Know they do in my book, but I'd be interested to hear some of your specifics.

Please fill me in.....

Tory/Magoo!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:54 am 
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Hubbard started the labor law abuse early by getting people to work for room and board and occasional courses. He especially favored uneducated and underage "messengers" in hot pants.

If the church bookkeepers claim ignorance of the law, that's bogus. One phone call would have acquainted them with the facts. Wouldn't it have been nice if Mary Sue had called the local US federal building and said, "We want to make sure our workers get their full Social Security credits. How do we include room and board and courses?"

A studmuffin or studmuffinette "volunteer" sounds more cool than an underpaid employee cheated out of Social Security credits. But the reality is the cheating.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 7:24 am 
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Next page: Bernie thinks the dead cat story is "hilarious."
I assume he's sneering at the lack of eyewitness evidence. But the circumstantial evidence is quite disturbing. Cats don't just walk onto a stranger's front doorsteps and die. They go home or hide if they are sick. Minton was in the middle of a fight with Scientology. If he were fighting with anybody else, and a dead cat appeared, I would suspect THAT person.

In a court of law, this circumstantial evidence would not be enough. But Minton is not pressing criminal charges; he is merely relating a story (which presumably DID happen), and he has the right of free speech to relate this story.

An abused-pet story shocks people, and they are quick to jump to a guilty verdict and rant. Their pre-judging does not mean the Scientology-dead-cat link is a myth; it means they are jumping to conclusions on an unproven and probably unproveable case of animal abuse.

I was repelled by Bernie's cutesy winking cat and other silly cat clip art. If the dead cat did happen, the logical conclusion is that a healthy cat was captured, suffered terror, and was killed. This is not "hilarious."

Bernie focuses on the weakest story, the Minton dead cat. Although one poster mentions the Swearinger's dog and the Young's cats, Bernie does not elaborate on those cases. But the Swearinger dog incident is highly incriminating to CoS, and the Young story shows CoS will use animal-abuse slander DIRECTLY against a person who is humanely caring for animals, JUST to punish that person.
QUOTE:
...Judge Swearinger stated that his dog had drowned in the family swimming pool during the trial of the Prior Action, and that the judge believed that he had been followed when in his car throughout the trial. The judge informed Horne that, while he was in possession of no evidence to corroborate the suspicions he harbored, he nonetheless felt that members of the Church of Scientology were responsible for such actions."
...
Fishman declared that in the late summer or early fall of 1986 another Scientologist told him that he had drowned a dog named "Duke" that belonged to a Judge Swearinger. END QUOTE from
http://www.casp.net/wollers1.html

Robert Vaughn Young accused CoS of falsely accusing him of neglecting and abusing animals:
http://www.religio.de/publik/arsreview/051097.html
CoS's "anonymous" complaint is, ironically, what Bernie accuses the critics of - jumping to false conclusions. Except that it's not just blah-blah-blah on a website. The Youngs were forced to choose between their home and their pets.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:22 am 
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This is a particularly disturbing subject to me. Equally disturbing is the footprint or smear this story left behind, in it's wake.
I'm of the ilk that believes suspicious feline and canine deaths be investigated as any homocide. Thats just me.

I cannot shed any light here. The scientologists I knew were warm,loving and compassionate people. Bernies images are in bad taste. I wish he would remove them.

Umike

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 3:25 am 
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The Scientologists I personally know would never harm an animal.
Next to Bernie's treatment of Lisa McPherson

Let's keep this immensely complicated story short and look at what Bernie left out:
1) The accident where Lisa took her clothes off in public
(makes CoS look bad to have mentally ill staff) although Bernie does have a link saying Lisa "exhibited bizarre and psychotic behavior."
2) The theory of the Introspection Rundown (silence in front of the insane person, seclusion, no contact with family)
3) Pouring prescription drugs down Lisa's throat.
4) The failure to bring in a doctor (practicing medicine without a license)
5) The CoS staff logs commenting on how insane Lisa was acting.
5) The missing last few pages of CoS logs on Lisa.
6) Driving many miles to New Port Richey where there was a Scientology doctor, instead of taking Lisa to the nearby hospital in Clearwater.
7) Miscavige's callous quote in the St. Pete Times: “At the time I don't think it was really thought to be that significant an issue. She died. People die.”
8 ) The Church's refusal to apologize or accept any responsibility for wrongful behavior. Even the Nazis apologized.
9) The disappearance of key CoS staffers who were with Lisa in her final days.
10) Most damning - the roach bites, which Wood DID not retract. That means officially Lisa WAS covered with roach bites. So much for loving care.

To his credit, Bernie did include the page about Wood's bungling of the autopsy. On this Bernie page, Crow cited QUOTE: Wood's vulnerability to litigation in the case and a suggestion by Scientology that it could reveal information extrememly damaging to Wood's office and her career" END QUOTE

Bernie's only moment of so-called empathy is to call Lisa's death "tragic" as though a meteor had struck her. You never say to a murderer,
"How could you commit that tragic murder?"
You don't because "tragic" has a poetic feel to it, like Ophelia drowning. There was no poetry in Lisa's long agony. Bernie should have chosen another word, like "gruesome" or "cruel" or "horrific." I guess the truth wouldn't have been balanced enough for him.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 9:01 pm 
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There are so many people that know so much more about this case than me. These days I'm a neophyte on this topic as I don't read the court docs anymore. One thing I do know, is this is that a lot of people really meltdown when discussing it.

In some circles the LM case has been used as almost a perverse barometer of "loyalty to the cause" so to speak.
And I have observed critics judging one another based on the emotional intensity they feel (or don't) about this case.

Some critics with real life scientology induced trauma (which they are unable to recover from) have Lisa McPherson hard wired into their consciousness and live vicariously through the court case on a daily basis. It's almost scary. I try to avoid them.

God forbid anyone have a sense of humor about this case.
It's really forbidden you know. Why is that? Ever hear of "gallows humor"


I cannot judge the degree of culpability the CoS should bear, better than the judge or jury. But I sincerely hope that justice is meted out against anyone found to have been deliberately abusing that poor girl.

Don, I am not emotionally involved in this case. Is there some problem with that?


Umike

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:40 am 
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Nope. This thread is about Bernie. Just don't expect any pity from ME for being picked on (by, say Arnie Lerma) if you have no pity yourself.

Next Bernie page, on Greg Bashaw. The lead page for this doesn't say much, and the first link leads to a series of articles that I skimmed that seemed quite critical of CoS. The second link consists of several uninformed people arguing about what MIGHT have happened to Greg Bashaw.

For argument, let's assume that Greg's father did bring in two "OT's" to talk his son out of his torment. They talked to him. They left. He killed himself. Now Bernie is trying to equate this with Lisa's 17 days of so-called "care" that included pouring drugs down her throat and neglecting her while roaches bit her. A reasonable person would not equate the two.

Years ago I had dinner with distant relatives and their son, who had just lost his girlfriend and his job. He was so low (in a quiet way) it was scary. People were plying him with food, trying to cheer him up. He went home and killed himself that night. Were we guilty of "making" him kill himself? Of course not.

I assume those two men who tried to help Greg were equally well-meaning. Bernie's attempt to equate the Lisa case with Greg's suicide is lame.


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