Ladybird, I have argued with Fluffy far longer than you have and she's smug about the tech but sincere about opposing CoS. For curiosity sake, I looked up the earliest post I could find that Fluffy made, at I believe that if all clears and higher voted, page 4, December 4, 2001.
QUOTE:
While I agree that the major problem with CofS is that it is lightyears away from being democratic and that introducing some democracy (over DM's figurative dead body, one assumes) would certainly help CofS, I think using Clear or OT as voting criteria would be divisive and lead to elitism.
The organization is ALREADY very very elitist as it is. That's one of the outpoints with it.
END QUOTE
So Fluffy has been consistently thoughtful about discussing actual CopS managment issues and philosophy. She did this today by discussing the Freezone Survivors. Years of posting, weathering an amazing amount of sarcasm (I plead guilty) and insults (I insult the idea, not the person), and she's still here. Go back to the earliest page of Opinions and Debate and there she is, fighting the fight. She DOES get points for longevity.

I didn't have to look up the argument when you started arguing with Fluffy because I know this argument well, having made it myself years ago. Fluffy defends the tech while she heartily attacks CoS. That's Fluffy, she's not leaving; you can see our polite but firm arguments back to 2001. If years of reasoned argument won't sway her, criticizing her for adding a counter-picketing comment to a counter-picketing thread won't sway her.

You started so promisingly, Ladybird. A search for your posts only goes back to July, and your first posts were helpful with a gratifying blend of thoughtfullness and snarkiness. I was trying to figure out where you parted company with some of the critics - I see in the thread Rebuilding Your Life where Tory criticized you on page 14, and you (when you still used the name Tammy) thought umike was secretly accusing you of being an SP on page 18. That was a murky thread which I stayed out of until I could figure out how to treat Alan, who seemed both misguided AND in possession of highly valuable information about early CoS days.

I see where you and Tigger started fighting when, baffled by the Minton mess that Tigger (probably unwisely) brought up, you dug up the Andreas and Tigger - Stop It. My heart really sank when I saw that thread resurrected, since Andreas and tigger stopped fighting years ago, Tigger left the board, and finally came back. Mercifully Andreas didn't jump in - he's hard to get into a fighting mood! On the same page, you also started a fight with umike! I could have warned you BOTH of them aren't turn-the-other-cheek types.
I didn't see any arguments between you and Lerma and or between you and Tom Padgett. A word of warning - these guys will argue for years, too.

I would recommend doing an author search on any of these people on this message board, and reading the overall content of their posts. Umike had a cranky period and I decided to go back to earlier posts of his to use against him, but when I read the old posts I realized (and then remembered) that he had a lot of good thought in the old days, and that helped me get past a period where he was more combative.

It's not plagiarism when Tigger posts news and gossip since she cites the source. It's a little opportunistic about the copyright laws, but I post similar items and the minute any paper or magazine protests, I'm happy to get the offending post deleted. It's some chore to DAILY do a search for Scientology news and then post it for years and years. You got upset that she was posting CoS press items but the regulars know that Tigger is definitely not endorsing these guys. I have occasionally put Hubbard or CoS quotes in purple to make it clear that they are CoS remarks and not mine, but it's time-consuming to do and sometimes the color goes in the wrong place and makes the post more confusing. I go by the "let them hang themselves with their own rope" philosophy - CoS frequently says something that is embarassingly revealing or provably wrong. If later, we need a quote, we can dig it up using the search function here.

Tigger is also an asset since she knows the Oklahoma Narconon situation and she will write letters to authorities using her own name. Fluffy (and Terrill, I'll admit it and even (I guess) Pitbull) are useful for their past knowledge of CoS and their present contacts in the indie-Freezone community. umike makes warm and understanding comments to many ex-Scientologists, he's got a lot of passion, and of course HE knows people inside and outside CoS. Tory and Arnie Lerma are good for TV, newspaper and magazine interviews.

I need long term, thoughtful posters like these people (even if some are kinda long-winded) because I don't know ANYTHING about CoS except one visit to Fort Harrison, some talks with my very-controlled CoS relatives, and...what I read on the Internet. It's such a shame that these people fight each other at the drop of a hat; it set a bad example for you, Ladybird. I'm not Merlin, who officially moderates the Opinions and Debate(moderated) section so I can't yank posts off, and this isn't a moderated section anyway. I'm not going to be like Rodney King and beg everybody to get along - some of these critics have deep wounds. All I do, and I recommend you do, is to try to post non-fight-related new threads and posts that will, one hopes, generate good conversation and nothing worse.

Thank you Don Carlo for your post. I am here to help, and part of helping in my opinion is to expose cult think and tactics by the OSA or cult apologists who post on this and many other boards.

I do realize I am angry to the bottom of my heart about what scientology has done to me and many others. I am impatient to get my own family out of scientology, as I am sure you and many others are.

How many years do we have to wait? How many more have to get sucked in and have their lives turned upside down? Children are only children for a few short years, and our older relatives have this bad habit of dying before we have a chance to tell them goodbye and how much we loved them, not to mention how sorry we are for the years of heartache we caused them by joining a cult and disconnecting from them, and dashing all their hopes for us, the same hopes we have for our own children.

The cult has a bad policy of not even allowing us to attend our loved ones funerals, which further alienates us from whatever family we might have left in the real world.

I did read Fluffy and Torys tribute to their mothers, and how grateful they were to be able to spend those final days with them. I was not so lucky, and I know many others who were not either, directly due to scientology disconnection policy.

You can call me snarky, whatever that means, but I just call em like I see them, from my unfortunately vast background of life in the cult.

I rely on people like you to be the voice of reason (NOT "reasonableness") because as you say, there are many deeply wounded people here.

I don't want to hurt anybody who is already hurt, but I do want to stop pretended critics from hurting others or leading them astray down the dark dead end alley that is the scientology bridge to Hubbardsville.

Ladybird

Thanks, Don Carlo, for saying what you have said. You are ever a clear, calm voice and a rock of integrity in this forum, and I take heart at the sanity you bring to it.

Ladybird, I do not fault your passion, but I would ask you to remember that the burden of responsibility for pointing out error, righting wrongs and policing OCMB does not fall solely upon your shoulders. You are not alone in this fight. You have support and assistance here. Recognise and appreciate it. Don Carlo did you a solid favour of great value by criticising your mode of criticism.

An effective critic is one who changes minds. See J Swift's posts when he first appeared on the board as "Kent Questions Everything", see the responses he received to those posts, and listen to the songs he's singing now.

Thanks, Ladybird, I also have been finding more of your earlier posts as Tammy, so you have been posting here longer than I thought (and many good posts at that). I didn't realize you had children in CoS. No wonder you're fiery. People in this spot deserve a special recognition. I'm actually trying to be respectful, and add a littttle lightness to a sad situation, by adding an award for parents to "wear" on their mythological SP level, the "Remember-the-Children yellow ribbon" for those with children still in CoS, and the "Star of Joy" for those whose children have left Scientology.

Here's the list of SP levels.
SP1 - you become a public church critic (posting, picketing, whatever)
SP2 - the church reacts to your actions in some way
SP3 - you get a personal response from the church
SP4 - you are threatened with a lawsuit or Fair Game
SP5 - you are sued and/or Fair Gamed
SP6 - you win their suit or stop the Fair Gaming
SP7 - you sue them
SP8 - you win your lawsuit
SP9 - you collect damages
from http://scn.martinobrien.com/ABUSE/xenubat/SPLEVELS.HTM , but link no longer works.

Note: if you have been cloned on this Message Board, you get to jump up to an SP 3, since presumably CoS is taking pot shots at you. That is one of the underlying jokes in the "Only the Clonely" thread. I cloned all the posters from the previous week into a skit about cloning, which made everyone on it a level SP3 by definition. Fortunately and unfortunately, now that registration is required, nobody can clone anybody anymore, so that "easy SP3" is gone, unless someone clones you on ars!

Beyond the SP levels, there is presently at least one person with a self-awarded "Clam Cluster." Other Ideas for SP awards, with three new ones added in red:

Remember-the-Children Yellow Ribbon (for those with children still in CoS)
Star of Joy (for those children who have left CoS)
Empty Money Clip
"Question Authority" Quiver-and-Arrows Medal
Now-Compliant-with-U.S.-Law Pennant
Seen-the-Light Shoulder Patch
Occam-was-Right Oak Leaf
Objective Reality Ribbon
No-Longer-Conned Medal
Success-AFTER-CoS Laurel Wreath
Snarkiness* Velcro Patch (for those whose aim is high-level wisecracking)
Skeptic Bronze Question Mark

Andreas, who has been fair gamed, could dub himself an SP 5 with an Objective Reality Ribbon.

Those who quietly left the cult after spending megabucks, and have started posting here, could be an SP 1 With an Empty Money Clip. They could work their way up to a SP 1 with a Success-After-CoS Star.

Nicole Kidman, even if she never posts or criticizes CoS, could be an SP 0 with a Seen-the-Light Shoulder Patch.

Any CoS lawyer who defects to the FBI and turns state's evidence could become an SP with a "Now-Compliant-with-U.S.-Law Pennant."

Although you have to EARN your SP levels, the ribbons/awards can be self-awarded and self-designed, for the artists among you!

Any other ideas? We could assemble them and make a formal presentation to the ARSCC (wdne) - the Alt.Religion.Scientology Central Committee (which does not exist). If it existed!

* Snarkiness (funny, biting criticism) is a desired state up there with mmm... nirvana (!?).

Hey it was on the topic of OSA picketing. Why don't you leave Ball of Fluff alone?

No,it's not the "end of story".....Let's count how many threads Ladybird has hijacked with her ad hominem attacks and bad mouthing that were so far off topic, they were on Mars.

Talk about discouraging people from posting here. If a poster dares disagree with Ladybird or says something she disagrees with....It's Attack, attack, attack....

The "ladybird" turned this thread nto a flamewar simply because Fluffybird posted on the topic of OSA pickets, which was on topic.


Don Carlo and Merlin have posted to put out the flames. Ladybird gets all meek and mild.....History repeats itself......How long will Ladybird mind her manners?.....My guesstimate....maybe 24 hours if we're lucky.

Tigger

Well, it's not your lucky day, Tigger. If Fluffly wants to be left alone, she knows where not to go.

Flame wars??? You start shame wars.

To Merlin and Don Carlo, I am giving this some thought. Thank you for your input.

Ladybird

Tigger,

Let's try an experiment. Let's just let this one be, eh?

Thanks.

Ladybird,

Please do give it some thought. Give it much thought.

Thank you.

Here is what Ladybird is thinking right now:

If Ladybird ran away to Ocho Rios and spent the rest of her days climbing up and down the falls at Dunns River under the warm tropical sun would the world stop turning?

Would the nasty spiders bite her there like they bite her here?

Maybe not. Maybe I should just enjoy the rest of my life, and let the OSA bots take over, who cares really? Scientology is it's own worst enemy and LRHs own words are the most damning evidence that exist.

Sooner or later it will all be history, a mere footnote in history right up there with Madame Blavatsky, Alistair Crowley and Jack Parsons. Hubbard will be way behind Joseph Smith, and even further behind Mary Baker Eddy, C.T. Russell, and Myrtle Fillmore.

Forgot who they were?

Look it up. They were important cults in their day, and remnants of the cults they started exist to this very day, in YOUR neighborhood.

Ladybird

Oh, and BTW, I have an original signed copy of "Early Writings" by Ellen G. White from the 1800s.

Just ask your local 7th Day Adventist what that is worth.

Sorry. That's fine with me. I've let a lot of ones be....one more won't kill me.

Hope you're staying healthy, wealthy and wise, Merlin.....

Best,

Tigger

Sorry I cannot post images here... i assume, because of complaints by
folks on dial ups..
so here are a few words

And no I havent webbed this yet

San Francisco Police Report 030769038

Incident narrative report page 3 of 3


R-1 Gorman and R-4 Gorman Jr came to co. 1 and told me that last night they were celebrating gotrman jr's and his sister's birthday. Gorman said that at about 10:30 last night, he received a call on his cell phone. Gorman answered the call. Thecaller was a man with a deep voice, the caller asked "Tom"?

Gorman said "yes"

The man then said, "S.P.s (supressive person) don;t live long!

Gorman said "What?"! Who is the SP?!

The man said: "Your son and his wife Jennifer will be dead soon"



Excerpt from San Francisco Police Report #031403528:

"On 11/26/03 at 730 hours he was traveling in his car. CA Plate 2XPJ851, a 1991 Lexus ES250, driven by his wife J. Gorman, down Park Presidio near MacArthur Tunnel when the car suddeenlt became difficult toc ontrol. They pulled over and called for assistance. The Gorman's had their car towed to the J&R Automotive shop for a repair. Today, the first full working day after the Thanksgiving holiday, their mechanic, (R/w) Vaknin, notified them that their car was missing all six bolts connecting the left axel to the transmission. Vanknin said this was highly unusual situation.....

....Vankin said the six bolts that were missing were probobly removed purposely.

---------------------------------------


Commentary,

Scientology is still protecting the perpetrator of the rape of Gorman's new wife, which he did when she was 16.. He was considered an UPSTAT by Scientology.

And Merlin, I think you need to practice what you preach and give this subject more thought.

coming soon to a newstand near you

You know, the more I think about it, the more I suspect that poor little fluffy whined long and hard and pushed the "but I have been here longer than her, she is picking on me" buttons, and has used you guys to further derail this thread, which is and should be about Tom Gorman spilling his guts about what he did under orders of OSA.

I don't care how long she has been posting or how many posts she made, or how polite she is. The pattern is clear. I have read her history, and I have noticed what she posts.

If you can't see a pattern, well, I guess YOU need to give it some more thought.

Scientology is much worse than you can possibly imagine. Tom Gorman's story is proof of that, and Tom's story should be the focus of this thread.

Ladybird

Tigger wrote:

Talk about discouraging people from posting here. If a poster dares disagree with Ladybird or says something she disagrees with....It's Attack, attack, attack....

The "ladybird" turned this thread nto a flamewar simply because Fluffybird posted on the topic of OSA pickets, which was on topic.


Don Carlo and Merlin have posted to put out the flames. Ladybird gets all meek and mild.....History repeats itself......How long will Ladybird mind her manners?.....My guesstimate....maybe 24 hours if we're lucky.

Tigger


Your guesstimate was high-I started a new thread and she is already
flaming it. (oldie but goodie thread)
...and I was just getting ready to make a sympathetic comment about her kid(s) that she says are in the cult. that is rough.

she just posted about being forced to live in an old trailer-loosing teeth
I mean I cant help but NOT feel bad for the woman.
not to mention that security becomes a big issue as we all age.
having the carpet pulled from beneath your feet after so many years of service-I have to be perfectly honest and say I could very well be
raging all over the place.

I also was not a victim,my experiences were mosty enjoyable in SCN. I never worked like a dog for them or lived in a room with 4 other people for a few dollars per hour. Nor lost family, friends to a cult. I was a fairly serious student-but that was only 6-9 hours per week primarily. I use to raise hell, had cute little scientology girlfriends- and was able to live in a cavalier fashion. After they refused to refund I said "screw you"-sued and won.

So-it was a win-win for me all the way around from beginning to end.

Contrast that with real heartbreak-those people dont want to hear from
me about some lovely experiences tra la la and that can create seething resentment. Maybe some of these people feel they can say whatever they wish-even if it's outrageous or only partially true and I should just be compassionate and keep my mouth shut
Because they paid dearly-and I DID NOT.

This is a (and my) Dilemma.

I recall Chuck Beatty saying that he enoyed posting where ex-sea org were. That may be an alternative for some.
Because what they did was similar to joining the french foreign legion, you know, if you think about it.
Sometime they need to vent, cry...just emote about their regrets

You walk thru the door and your life/past/family/friends/future/education/marriage is all in the hands of some very maciavellian folks.
your life forever changes and in some cases-some pretty shitty ways.

Then someone comes along talking about how they took the HQS course at a friendly quaint little mission-they can get broadsided-ambushed
by a "lifer" or someone accusing them of being an OSA plant....

Scientology never did anything to me personally that harmed me in any way whatsoever except for the PI following me. and even that happened
because of some senior people in the main church (and the TV show) which had nothing to do with the mission, supervisors, auditor or peers. I'm just not angry about it any longer.

sorry if i rambled here...


Mike

tigger, umike, fluffy - The gang's all here

and every one of their 'followups' is deflection of attention

Hubbard sez... double curve any attacks (on scientology)
back upon the attackers


If anyone reading this cannot see this pattern, then you
will be of no help fighting scientology, and should join
scientology, if you have not already done so.

You just dont have the intelligence to see the patterns,

I'd appreciate if you would stay out of my way, cause
I'm going to finish what I started ten years ago.

Cites: Emphasis MINE

HCOPL 21 Nov 1972 Issue I
PR Series 18
How to handle black propoganda"

"Here are some of the rules that apply:

1. Fill the vacuum of mitted data with factual data.

2. Prove all utterances heardare lies.

3. Discredit every rumor encountered.

4. Handle the interest level with any utterance.

5. Carefully study out the scene until the exact source is located.

6. Use the knowledge of source to impede or destroy the source of black propaganda by noncriminal means.

7. Continue to fill the vacuum of no data with good data using any channels available.

------------------


"The fact is that just going on PRing oneself does not remove the effects of the campaign, and all too soon one no longer has communication lines left in order to handle anything since reputation is so destroyed no one will listen..."


One has to fill the vaccum of the counter propagandists evil deeds. "



-----------------------------------


PR Series 7

Hubbard defines Black Propoganda as:

"Hidden source using lies and defamation to destroy"


--------------------------


HCOPL 16Feb 1969
Confidential
Targets Defense


8. Failing to contest for public opinion and public media.

9. Failing to identiify the enemy early and [url=http://www.lermanet.com/cos/wpost.html]hit him hard.
[/url]
A. Our best defense is that we are sincere, that we are effective and we commit no crimes.

B. Or next best defense line was being sure the public knew we were a church.

C. Our next best was being quick and able and using very fast comm lines.


---------------


The vital targets on which we must invest most of our time are:

T1. Depopularizing the enemy to a point of total obliteration.

T2. Taking over control or allegiance of the heads or proprietors of all media.



HCOPL 16 Feb 1969
Confidential
Battle Tactics


"The end product of war, according to Clauswitz, the authority on it is "to bring about a more amenable frame of mind on the part of the enemy"

"It is bad warfar to fight battles on your own terrain, in your own subject area. It is not good to fight in the terretory of allies. Fight whenever possible only on enemy terrain, in and about his subject and his people."

[b]"Never treat a war like a skirmish. Treat all skirmishes like wars."[/b


--------------------


Do you have any questions merlin?