Ahhh screw that. I'd much rather hear about the stories of times gone by, than work Alan over re proving any "OT" shit occurs or not. That's a different post, really, or maybe that IS this thread, and I need to create another one?

Let me know...I'm cool, either way. The proving OT I doubt can occur, and frankly, not so valuable, imhsho. It's very personal, and I doubt can be proved.

Let me know if I need to start another thread.

Tory/Magoo~

Undemonstrated win's/stories, feed over time, serve as another insidious form of bait for the trap! Otherwise we wouldn't keep having these discussions!

Anyways, it's Alan's turn!

As an outsider here I find all of this fascinating to read. I just thought I'd share that.

(exception: seaside's quotes are bit irritating...one or two are fine but so many?)

BH: Ya....I agree...if that's all we heard.
However, first off, I don't think Alan will only tell "Wins", as he's had his own run ins that are pretty interesting to tell.

Secondly, we're out, and happily so! No wins could ever convince me into diving back in that trap, and I doubt you, either. Perhaps you're thinking of people luring here? Well, I still feel hearing both sides is a good thang. When people only hear one side, it does sort of seem like perhaps something is missing. I know for me, it wasn't all the critics telling me how bad Hubbard was that did anything. It was actually Andreas telling me he didn't think Scientologists were bad, they were just "misinformed", as well as the rest he said.

I'm not really interested in 'wins'..I'm interested in the time track of what did occur with L. Ron Hubbard, and all that evolved during ALan's stint. I know Alan has told me a few years ago about how the Bridge changed.

Would you consider hearing about that more of the trap, or educational? I found it greatly educational.

I agree...over to Alan. Glad you're enjoying it, JooJoo.

Tory/Magoo~~

BH,

Undemonstrated win's/stories, feed over time, serve as another insidious form of bait for the trap! Otherwise we wouldn't keep having these discussions!

No kidding! Don't expect this to end anytime soon.

However, I would like to read Alan's personal experiences in auditing Hubbard.

TM,

Just my standard question line to the new commer/old timers, who generally answer with ambiguity.

And yes, I do this for the lurkers also.

PG,

I'd like to hear Alan's experiences with Hubbard also.

(Message edited by beyond_horizons on July 12, 2005)

Tori,
Sorry I don't have forgiveness for con men in my heart. I know it makes me less of a person, but I just CAN NOT DO IT.

Alan is as bad as Hubbard for continuing the scam. He didn't 'invent/discover' it but he has repackaged it and sold it.

Well, I guess we all have our own opinions, eh?

What IF the people he's worked with were helped, and are happy with what they got?

Since out, my main reasons for speaking out are due to the abuses Scientology insists on continuing. These for me are: Lying, stopping of free speech and the fraud connected with that (Selling "OT levels", not allowing people to hear or read about it before. Alan tells people about NOTS right away, from what he told me a few years ago), medical malpractice, and most of all, the breaking up of families, and the worst, the usage of children--roping them into the Sea Org.

As I know of, Alan doesn't do any of these, and has actually been quite against them.

I don't hold the same belief as you, re people and their beliefs, but I respect your opinion on it.
My best...

Tory/Magoo~~

Lets talk about reputation. I do not know Alan Walter. I have never studied knowledgism. I am not planning to study it.
If you spend some time in the "self help" Awareness training. processing community you will find he has a reputation built on word of mouth testimonial.
Even many people that just dont want anything to do with any of it will tell you- "He's too expensive" "It reminds me of scientology" but most of those same people will concede that he is one of the best at what he does.

This isn't some newly converted Freezone kook that went out and bought a meter and set up a website. That should be known. Alan is the real deal.

Don't hate Alan because of Ron Hubbard's abuses. He left just like the rest of us. In fact he was pioneer in that arena too.

SCN continues to consider him a big threat. These are facts that should be layed on the table.
He also was an activist/critic when some of you were infants.

You may despise anyone using "OT" tech-maybe you have family member that got screwed up by the CoS or auditing-whatever.
Even still this is a very rare opportunity to hear all about it from a guy who knew the people that designed all this stuff-30-40 years ago.

You might consider him a treasue-a chance to understand
a POV you may never get again.

So, if it makes you feel complete to drown out his voice then go right ahead. He's human and being new will get offended and leave. And won't that just be teriffic! wow. You sure showed him, huh?

(Message edited by umike on July 12, 2005)

This is not the only platform from which to speak.
He could write a book and call it,

"Bridge Over Troubled Walters."

I do not agree with Alan's perception of LRH as an humanitarian who wished to better the condition of mankind. I knew LRH some 10 years or so before Alan came upon the scene. I saw him as a con man and a crude piggish person, with only money, power, and greed as his goals. LRH is dead. Perhaps Alan will continue with his stories.
If Alan has managed to sift out the lovely bits of tech that worked for most of us, and Alan can present it in such a way that it is helpful, then I have only admiration for him. Were it only for Alan's statement that " double terminalling with BTs is as low as it gets" convinces me that he and I are on the same page when we hit the "top of the bridge".
Rock on, Alan!

la

Tori,
What IF the people he's worked with were helped, and are happy with what they got?

An extreme view of this is what about the people in Jonestown? Do you think all of them went kicking and screaming? No many of them happily fed themselves and their children that delicious Koolaid to take them to a better place.

If Alan wants to believe that he is infested with space cooties, who were blown up in non-existant volcanos, than really that is his right.

His statement about how we are all at fault just got under my skin. As if to say that becuase he left prior to 1982 than he was blameless.

Umike,
I would love to hear his point of view but I really can do without the sales pitch.

Tory,

no-one is telling Alan NOT to post his stories!

If he wants to post them - then he should go ahead and do so, it makes no difference what people are talking about in the absence of those postings.

Just think of it as a cocktail party - we're all sitting around sipping on the good drinks chatting to each other waiting for some other guest to launch into this blockbuster story we are all interested in..

I'd like to echo Mick's post. And <yikes> Pitbull's.

"To my knowledge none of the above attributes can be measured, seen, felt or touched."

So to what do you attribute a being's experience of those "attributes?"

"Domination of anothers Spirit, Mind and Body is the exact opposite of OT."

Not in CoS as you well know. How does it differ in knowledgeism? (Partly rhetorical, possibly you could start another thread).


"Yet almost all of you who joined after that period went in and furthered the tyranny...not only that you made our lives a living hell.... You contributed to that."

"People like you." What the phuque? How dare you condescend and judge like that? One might as well ask you where YOU were when AIDS broke out! Why didn't you cure that Alan? Where were you when people were picketing the gay-bashers with their virulent homophobic rants?

Rubbish Alan. Bad argument. Bitter and completely lacking in empathy. But what else is new under the sun in Hubbardsville.

Do you know that while your hero Hubbard was writing to Brian Livingston that my ex-sea org friend, a young child, was in the chainlocker of the ship you were on? That her mother was in daily talks with Hubbard? That she had something to say about her unfortunately lengthy experience of this man before she died of cancer while trying to audit it out of her meat body?

You don't appreciate the same things that sucked YOU in to the CoS sucked subsequent idealistic and vulnerable folk in?!? That's the red flag for me re you, Alan. Your blame and shame game with regard to that invisible group out there who, somehow, with all the cult-inspired lawsuits and suppression of information generally, and even when it might have been out there, (proof please, name of news outlets publishing what you claim) should have come running to your rescue?

"Blame Hubbard all you want but it took people like you to further the horrors."

Oh that's really rich Alan. Others, who continued to apply Hubbard's and or his "successors'" orders while he was "disabled" in his pre-death experience weren't furthering Hubbard's agendas, along with him, like the major players following the tech they learned from him? They had to have something pretty rotten to pervert and "improve on" in the first place IMO. So. It was all the ex-scieno evil SPs who really persecuted you, really let you down. Interesting. Well...crap.

I don't see any "empire" having risen or fallen here at all. What I see is you opining on the one hand re Hubbard, and rhapsodizing about him on the other. Legitimate historians will give a shit about scientology, say in 25-50 years time (or less)? Dream on.

Tory, why should I or anyone else put grievances against Hubbard aside for Alan Walter? I don't get it. He's been in the "tech" game for a very very long time now. If he can't "handle" the heat he should have known would follow his coming here, then he shouldn't have come in to this kitchen.

I'm glad he did because of the debate his comments have engendered. I'd like to hear all of his story. I'd like to see a Hubbard tech-practitioner make himself totally transparent here. I'm not holding my breath, but it would be incredibly refreshing if it were to happen, and given that Alan has the tech on his side, one would think he would be more aware of the weather.

Its my opinion that Freezoners are critics first.

Alan has been extremely critical. Both of COS and Hubbard.

Yet he tells it as he sees it about Hubbards
good points.

Is he right? or wrong? Iether way he has a
unique perspective and great personal knowledge.

From ARS he has spent a couple of hours speaking with Chuck. We know Chuck is interested in historical documentation. We know he is polite and friendly.

I hope that dosn't mean Alan wont post here
further. Few have his knowledge and viewpoint.
Of those who might have, Fewer seem willing to tell it as they see it