apollo13,

das sind Dinge von denen ich gar nichts wissen will!

Tigger,

even if this gets me banned:

YOU ARE A COMPLETE AND UTTER FUCKWIT!

Why? Because I won't let people get away with lies.

BTW....don't pm me. If you have anything to say to me, either post it or forget it.

Tigger

Tigger,

The E-Mail address that you replied to was not the one you published - which was compromised and discarded anyway.

What I find very interesting, is that although no names were mentioned, you assumed that I meant you.

I only replied that you had threatened to get Andreas involved in the past. I in no way had claimed that you had done so now. That was you and you alone who took on the mantle of defensiveness. Only Andreas can say who fed him the garbage which has led him, to make an utter fool of himself.

Your post also makes a mockery of my publishing the contents of a PM, which I know is based on utterly unfounded accusations.

You also have not done yourself any favours with your post. From now on your trust level will be zero.

So let us recapitulate:

1) Andreas has said that he cannot monitor the site, so he can only comment upon what he gets communicated to him.

2) I said to Andreas, that he should do the research (as Don_Carlo did), and not just blindly listen to whoever was trying to bend his ear.

3) You chimed in and said that it was not you, and that any accusation on my part with regard to that was a lie (an accusation I had not made)

4) I replied that you had made those kinds of comments in the past to me (with regard to getting Andreas "onto my case", and I had replied, "have at it".

5) Again I had not implied that it was you, I was just stating fact with regard to past exchanges.

6) Once again you did not read my post but went into PMS mode, and proceeded to destroy whatever shards of credibility you may have left.

7) The E-Mail address which you published was never one which was entrusted to you personally by me. The person from whom you received that address must really now ask themselves how much trust they should place in you in future.

The bottom line is that you cannot be entrusted with personal information, because who knows when, in a fit of unwarranted pique, you might betray whatever confidence was placed in you.

Your post will always be brought up when you want someone to trust you, because you have proven how you repay trust.

I did not accuse you, you accused yourself. I only replied that I could not exonerate you, because of previous correspondence (whether per E-Mail, or on the forum) where you had alluded to involving Andreas.

That Andreas is being used as a patsy is beyond doubt. That you have also managed to do a complete FUBAR unto yourself is also beyond doubt.

Another thing which is beyond doubt is the ugliness which I wanted to pre-emptively defend my girlfriend (MissDorfl, who I met on this forum) against, which has crept into OCMB has now been vindicated.

You have shown that I have no reason to trust posters here to not try to have a malicious go at her, just to try to get at me. I have to assume that nothing here is sacred anymore because you have shown that nothing is sacred here anymore.

Well done Tigger, why is it that you right-wingers (Co$ and people like yourself) always manage to find the perfect foot-bullet?

I made a hasty repeat of someone else's accusation that Nec made violent threats, and I retracted THAT after looking at hundreds of his posts and finding no direct violent threats.

However, I don't condone the THOUSANDS of lines of narcissistic game-playing that Nec continues to indulge in. If Miss Dorfl and Tigger have a fight and Nec verbally abuses and insults Tigger to defend his "girlfriend," where is the chivalry? where is the gallantry? It appears more MissDorfl's sensitive feelings are an excuse to do what he really wants, which is to use words to rip people up, line after line after line, post after post after post.

When your two week leave of absence ends, Nec, I hope you can find something to post about other than:

1. Yourself and how you are brilliant, brilliant, brilliant (snore).
2. Yourself and how misunderstood you are.
3. Your deep disappointment in not being able to order Andreas around.
4. Your "noble gallantry" about defending your girlfriend, combined with telling Tigger she's "worthless." Some knight in shining armor.
5. How we're supposed to be amazed and confounded that you posted both as Apollo 13 and Nec, and that somehow Andreas can't keep both of you off the board.

We have heard these topics ad nauseum for thousands and thousands of lines. You are trying to defend yourself by using my limited search for specific violent speech, when what's truly troubling is that you are like a greedy child grabbing space on the board, to talk about yourself, and especially to grab Andreas' attention and make him pay attention to you you you.

I see how it enrages people when someone else tries to stop certain kinds of talk, and that's why I leave most people alone. But when the major topic is Nec, Nec, Nec, I have to take Andreas' side here. It's irrelevant whether you made threats or not. You're dragging the board down with your aggressive and persistent narcissism.

Not passing judgement, saying how I feel just now: Man, after all these years here, this just breaks my heart. It truly does.

It would break my heart to see Andreas decide to shut this web site down ... although I could understand the reasons why he might decide that way.

The many posters here, their various posting styles, colors and flavors, and the many links and perspectives here relative to Scientology, CoS, and the freezone have been a life saver for me.

Boo, Tigger, Boo!

While tending to my broken heart this question occurred to me, so Don Carlo, can I have a word with you?

Quotes from OCMB's FAQ/Rules of Conduct: Do they not apply to everyone?



My emphases. And I respect Andreas's ROC, though I have, as you know, broken them many times and you have not. So I'm astounded by your post to Nec.

Since this is not an entirely transparent board, and understandably so and agreed to by me, I have no idea nor do I wish to know what went on privately in this, IMO, sad outcome regarding Nec.

My point is a rule should be a rule for everyone who crosses line line in the ROC. Flexibilites could be thought through, and posted, other than common sense, perhaps. Otherwise, when is a rule not a rule?

Empathies to Andreas that no one has volunteered with the time, the energy, the Scientology knowledge and/or experience with family in, and the skills and the je ne sais quois to fill Merlin's shoes, because this board sure saved my ass some years ago, before it needed moderation, before it achieved such heavy and time-consuming critical mass. Someone like yourself, Don Carlo. (I believe you have said you don't have the time; I said 'like'.)

Good point. It's complicated - there are narcissistic posters, but they're mostly brief. There are lengthy posters, but they're mostly acceptable talk, or copying text or they are issuing ad hominem insults, which the Andreas already has a rule against. There are long me-me-me posts by a few other people, but they're mostly about memories and feelings, not about hostility and playing king-of-the-hill.

There are people who want to argue with Andreas, but they're often brief, or flamefighting (see previous point) or they flat out quit because Andreas is firm but polite and it stops being fun.

The problem with NEC is that he saw a loophole on the board where he could spend thousands of lines talking about himself (and he did make vague threats, especially in "defense" of Miss Dorfl). When criticized, he wanted to argue with Andreas. Andreas being polite, tried to explain his position, but NEC grabbed the loophole (that he has not "technically" advocated violence) and used it to harange Andreas. The more Andreas calmly explained his point, the more Nec spiraled into a self-aggrandizing savior-victim flame attack. So, if Andreas didn't answer him, I think Nec would have trumpeted that he had won the battle, that he is the chosen poster about whom us common posters need to know more. Specifically, how very brilliant Nec is.

Remember that Nec was only banned for two weeks, not a lifetime. Also remember that this board is Andreas' private property, Andreas has a full time job on top of being admin, and the rest of us are his guests. We need Andreas to be the admin, not pinned down trying to reply to a poster who wants to attack him.

The one thing I can say in Nec's defense is that he never understood what his behavior problem was. Andreas didn't spell it out (probably because it was so #$%^ obvious) but I'm attempting this now. Andreas, if I've missed a major point, let me know.

Ideas are welcome on a rule to prevent this. Perhaps a weighted average of length + narcissism + self-aggrandizement + thin-skinned + hostility + frequency + increasing spiral. Ideas are welcome.

I'm really glad you were online to respond quickly to my post, and chose to do so. It's taken me more than an hour to feel good enough about replying appropriately, though I saw it on my email that you had my message.

When you responded, "Good point. It's complicated - there are narcissistic posters," I dont feel heard when you reply with a 'but' like that, which, to my way of thinking further emphasizes my previous point: "when is a rule not a rule?" Is the word 'narcissistic' not ad hom in the context we're discussing?

So while I admire you immensely, your response feels to me like a dismissal of my "good point," more a qualificaton/continuation of your own previous points.

From my position today it looks like, "OK, you have a point, but." And then carrying on to forward your own points, much like when two (in this instance) people are arguing, not really listening, just waiting for their "opponents" words to finish all the while forumulating their response.

I'm not going to continue this while my feelings may be ruling my head; equally I'm not going to employ logic to overrule my feelings to attempt to argue Your points: perhaps I can't "hear" you properly just yet, either.

Hi, B.G.

I know that Nec was one of your "special" friends and you, his. I understand that you are very upset. You appear to think that Nec wasn't treated fairly because he got kicked off the board.

I know you don't post here very much any more so you may not be aware of the sequence of events that led up to Nec being banned. Look up Nec's posts. You can see from them that Don Carlo is correct (according to what and how Nec posted).

I'm sure you will be fair minded enough to recognize that Nec was way over the line and the only thing Andreas could do was to ban him for two weeks. Even that wasn't enough. Within a week Nec came back as Apollo 13 to rant and rave some more and attack Andreas and the board.

I could say more, but I won't. I don't know what his problem is, but he certainly has one....maybe you can encourage him to seek some kind of therapy or anger management.

Regards,

Tigger

Perhaps Nec needs to route in to the closest org for his therapy. In about five/ten/twenty years or so maybe he’ll be better able to relate to those who had been in for five/ten/twenty years or so.

B.G., The 'good point" was me agreeing that there should be a rule that applies to all posters. The rest of the post was why one rule doesn't work. For example, forbidding posting too long and too frequently would cut me out. Forbidding posting about oneself would kill the "My story from Within Scientology" posts which are highly valuable. Forbidding flashes of anger would get most of us banned.

I went back and read some of Nec's posts and as long as he's discussing something neutral, he's helpful, witty, and brief. That's the Nec that I'd like to see more of.

I'm semi-involved in the argument between Nec and Andreas because Nec kept quoting my apology (that I looked at 500-600 posts and didn't find any violence threats), like it was an official Seal of Approval. But Nec still did admit making violent threats in defense of Miss Dorfl. Nec never, as far as I know, apologized for that or edited his own thread. Hubbard's Mushroom pointed out that Miss Dorfl appears quite capable of defending herself, so I don't understand the stubborness. The trouble escalates when Nec gets defensive. The thread title itself is very superior in tone and quite absolutist ( I reject your PM to me in its entirety.) and Nec shouldn't have quoted from a private instant message.

Nec could have issued a disclaimer that he would only use violence in physical self-defense or in physical self-defense of the dainty Miss Dorfl (who called Tigger a f#$%wit). It would have solved the whole problem instead of challenging Andreas. Once that didn't fly, Nec went off into off-topics like American foreign policy, annoying Compaq techy guys and how he solves computer problems so wonderfully. It seemed like we'd never get back to the board's original topic.

I should say that Nec has behaved in a narcissistic fashion, not that he IS a narcissist. It's harsh, whichever way I say it, and I know we're not supposed to be insulting each other. However, I'm trying to give support to Andreas, and give Nec a clear message that he shouldn't be SUCH a difficult person on this message board.