I went to read your links and I find them very long so I am going to attempt to deal with your questions without referring to them. I'll go look at the links later and if there is anything more I find there that I think I should comment on I will.

Please, keep in mind, that what I will say here is the expression of my opinion and that other people may disagree with me. That's fine. If we ever reach a judgment day I won't be the one judging you and as far as I'm concerned you are entitled to have whatever opinion you decide to have.

For a period of time I was away from scientology. I had the opinion that the 'tech' worked, that L. Ron Hubbard was mankind's greatest friend, and that if there were problems in scientology they stemmed mainly from 'out tech,' 'unapplied tech,' the presence of SPs and from 'green' staff and public that had only been exposed to some of the 'tech'. I haven't really touched on that period of time in the "My Stories" section or even really looked into how that period of time has affected me but I think it may be of value to do that.

The one real problem I see to being in that situation is that you run the risk of going back to the so called church, which I did. I'm letting some time roll by before I tell that story. In a way, scientology did not disappoint. The organization began to take me for a ride again. I was lucky enough to get out and really get 'out' this time before it had the opportunity to ruin me completely. I avoided this, I think, by a matter of weeks. That is still another story and I am still figuring out whether I am going to tell that one and how best to do that.

So I believe in God. How else would I be rescued from such an evil fate? I digress.

In Take Back Your Life there is a section that deals with cult members looking at things and thinking about things in black and white. In other words they tend to think in terms of extremes without intermediate shades. Things are hot or cold and never warm. We have day and night but not twilight. There is red and yellow, but not orange. I am saying this as a preamble to how I have defined my situation.

As far as I am concerned I am 'out' of scientology. What I mean by being 'out' is that I have come to the opinion that all the troubles in scientolgoy stem directly from the way L. Ron Hubbard constructed the various aspects of that organizatin; that overall the 'tech' doesn't really do anything of benefit to anyone except by accident; if there is anything worthwhile in scientology it also exists outside scientology (and for less money); and if there is a way to spiritual enlightenment scientology is not it. That's what I mean when I say I'm 'out' and this time I will not be going back.

Then there are the people who are 'in.' They are on staff, or taking courses. They hand over their money. They buy books and on and on.

The third category I call 'away.' People who are not exactly 'in' but still have some love for Hubbard or use the 'tech' or one day hope to become clear/OT/a higher level auditor and so on are 'away.'

Those are my definitions and there is a slight problem with them. They add only one shade of gray to the black and white way of looking at this. I may be uncomfortable and feel anxiety when someone says they are 'out' and in the same breath describe the incredible wins they had while they were 'in' or when someone says they are 'out' but they set aside two hours a day for TRs. (The second statement there is hypothetical. I never heard anyone claim that.) Part of recovering from having been in a cult is learning to tolerate and live with the shades of gray in life.

That leaves a paradox in a way. Getting completely 'out' of the cult and recovering completely requires being able to be comfortable with those who say they are 'out' but manifest behavior and opinions that indicate otherwise.

As to people being on the message board being agents from scientology working for the office of special affairs and carrying out whatever program the office of special affairs has set for them, my opinion is this: People are people and if they come here with such a hidden agenda they run a very high risk of my running an intervention on them and getting them 'out.' We know that this kind of thing can and does happen. It happened with Tory and it happened with me. I was 'in' when I first visited Operation Clambake.

SEE if you havent
http://www.lermanet.com/cos/8steps.html


One of the last hurdles is to get over the depopularization of entire segments of society. Including psychiatry, hypnotism, and mental health.

Wieber,

What a fabulous post.

I especially like this line:

Interesting reading. "OUT" of a cult (like $cn) is indeed a gray thing.

For FZers and ~indies~, merely no longer being a church member to them means "out." However, for many of us it's MUCH more than that -- beaking away completely from the whole
cult mind trip, habits, patterns,
etc.

<<<>>>

Out doesnt mean running away

*I* did that, between 1978 and 1992
and running away did not work, I KNOW, I tried.

A tremendous post Wieber. I liked this part:


One of the problems with some critics is that they cannot create space for the paradox you describe. I think that ESMB has succeeded in doing this and it is one reason that board has grown at the expense of OCMB. Having said that, OCMB exists as a tremendous place that has far more freedom for the emotional extremes that certain people experience when they are here defending the Cult -- or after they have exited the Cult and need to demand and insist that all of Scientology is complete and utter bullsh*t.

For all of his nonsense, lies, and button pushing, Pitbull got what was good about Scientology, He saw that what was good had to exist outside of CoS because CoS is irreparably damaged. I see CoS as being not only irreparably damaged, but irreversibly damaged and in collapse in PT. The collapse will take time, but internal collapse is also an inevitable outcome of any fascist dictatorship.

*****
Laughinglion said in another thread:



I suggest that this affirmation also applies to Scientology: It is in the world and will never completely vanish. Scientology will persist as a function of the resistance to it. Scientology will also persist because it is a transpersonal form of Black Magick that is efficacious in attaining an altered state of mind that some people want and need.

Here is the problem for all Scientologists past, present, and future: Once you have experienced the Altered State called Scientology, you cannot go back. Hubbard said it well: The only way out is through. What Hubbard omitted was to say that there are two ways out:

1) Stay in CoS until one experiences body death. This option puts one in the Bardos with some heavy Karma that has to be hallucinated off in what surely must be an insane post-death experience that no OT process will ever prepare one to handle. I say this because when we are alive, we create Mind. When we die, Mind creates us. The only exception is if we have learned to transcend Mind and its mechanisms. Mind is identification and if one is utterly identified with LRH, then after death they will be created by the LRH Mind. This virtually guarantees reincarnation into a Scientology family. Thus, "the only way out is through" becomes, ""the only way out is through unending lifetimes." LRH wires Scientologists in PT for the Afterlife and Reincarnation. Scientologists are LRH's form of immortality. LRH the Archdemon lives off the life force and the suffering of Scientologists. This is his food.

The only way to dethrone this Demon Slumlord of Souls is to:

2) Blow CoS and forfeit all rights to processing by Scientology. Spend some years unwiring your head. Because Mr. Lerma is an electronics technician and a Master Esotericist, he was able to unwire himself and describe the process of how to undo the Altered State called Scientology. I have also spent considerable time mapping and reverse engineering the Scientology Demon Circuit, a complex mindfuck that one can get to vanish almost instantly when they realize it is an altered state. The technique is to be outside of the altered state and see it as such. Then Scientology disappears with this fast method. Others have said the same basic things in other ways. Hence, "the only way out is through" becomes, "The way out is through the nearest door."

*****
Here is an optical illusion, an esoteric pathway, one decoding of the CST symbol:



///

An extremely interesting analysis of Hubbard Evil by Mr. Lerma:

http://www.lermanet.com/exit/CST-miscavige-and-satanism.htm

////

Quite true! Leaving an abusive group like $cn, but without addressing many of it's lingering issues through education, self-examination, and possible professional help, can lead to huge voids.

I think Steve Hassan and other cult
exit counselors refer to these as
the "walking wounded."

<<<>>>

A Picture of activists in Clearwater - left to right -
Tilman Hausherr in back row, then David Cecere - President of the LMT, Jessie Prince - VP LMT, Kim Baker, Duncan - Treasurer for the LMT, Grady Ward - System Guru for the LMT and then me explaining to the Scientologists across the aisle all about xenu and the space cooties.



I think "Out" would be defined by which side
of this aisle you would be seated at??

Tom is that you with your head turned toward Jessie?

J Swift said "Laughinglion said in another thread:

Quote:
Please Understand, they can silence me, or they can kill me. But because a part of Me exists in You, I will still live. And if they silence you, and or kill you, a part of You will still exist in Another (of Us).


I suggest that this affirmation also applies to Scientology: It is in the world and will never completely vanish. Scientology will persist as a function of the resistance to it. Scientology will also persist because it is a transpersonal form of Black Magick that is efficacious in attaining an altered state of mind that some people want and need.

Here is the problem for all Scientologists past, present, and future: Once you have experienced the Altered State called Scientology, you cannot go back. Hubbard said it well: The only way out is through. What Hubbard omitted was to say that there are two ways out"

End of J's quote.

----

Beginning of the Lion's quote: What Hubbard ommited to say was that are three ways out J. 3 ways. Not 2.

You perceive (rightly so at a certain level of being) that to Blow scientology or to Stay in scientology represent the totality of the options available to the man/woman inclined/forced into making such a decision. And though, with all due respect I find your options lacking. Lol.

To wit: there is a third way J. Which is to neither affirm nor deny, but to transcend.

Look, Black or White thinking is common place. I understand. To affirm or deny is the staple and substance of the masses of humanity. So be it. But those few of us in humanity whom have suffered/experienced scientology have evidently (though seemingly unwittingly) taken ourselves to a level of Spiritual Being that demands a Greater Possiblity of Thought, and of Emotion, and of Understanding (to hold onto our own Individual Sanity). So to speak. Wherein black or white thinking has lost all it's power.

It's not us against them J. It's us against ignorance. It is us against ignorance. And so long as you imagine otherwise, and teach otherwise, the war will go on and on, forever and ever.

For so long as a man or a woman imagines the world they behold as being somehow separate from themselves (as the beholder) the war will go on. And on and on and on. You Understand.

And an appeal to the appeasement of polarity is not good advice my friend. It's not good advice.

For taking sides is Spiritually Futile (though Emotionally refreshing).

In sum, one needn't necessarily condemn scientology, nor justify scientology, in order to become free of scientology.

One need merely wake up.

Which uncovers the absurdity of calling for war in the name of peace.

Me.

P.S. Thank you for the way you characterized my statement. You could have been brutal but you weren't.

Could be. Hard to tell though. I do remember this grouping/gathering and being there.

Most of it was good times with good folks. Lots of "hope" in the air back then. Some times it got creepy though when large numbers of angry $cienos congregated to counter our presence.

<<<>>>

GREAT THOUGHTFUL POSTS EVERYONE.

I have two takes on this:

The practical.

The spiritual.

In the practical take, Scientology is a MLM model business enterprise which is exploiting people through the covert use of well established and documented mind control techniques:

Hypnosis

Peer Pressure

Exit Cost (Freeloader debts, Family, Friends, Having to admit putting a huge effort into feathering DMs nest)

Escalating Investment

Mileu Control

Embarrassing Confessions

Demonizing Non Cult Helpers

Loaded Language

In this take, any "shade of grey" stance taken by someone trying to exit will be futile. Let's take hypnosis for starters:

The Scientologist has been subjected to constant pressure to induce trance. That is a FACT. During these trance periods, the Scientologist has had their world view altered. They have been given "triggers" and "cues" to keep them restimulated into trance. This is the LOADED LANGUAGE and general culture of Scientology, and the interpersonal behaviour of Scientologists to one another.

If a person has been hypnotized, and can be triggered by external cues, the only way to DEPROGRAM the hypnosis is to FULLY REMOVE THE INDIVIDUAL FROM ANY CONTACT WITH ANY RETRIGGERING CUES until the person recognizes the cues and cannot be restimulated by simply hearing, seeing, thinking, smelling or tasting them. There is NO OTHER WAY to do this.

Some hypnoprogrammers use cues in the environment of the targeted individual such as MIRRORS, CLOCKS, ALARMS, TELEPHONES- that they cannot avoid on a daily basis. "Whenever you see a mirror, you will go through the looking glass and down the rabbit hole" for example. Such a command is designed to re-induce trance and restimulate obedience to the handler.

Let me give you an example of how this can apply to Scientology:

BULLBAITING.

I worked for a group of people who INDUCED DISSOCIATIVE STATES (aka hypnosis) in volunteers by getting in their face and yelling abusively at them while beating a table with a rubber hose a few inches from where the participants were told to sit without responding. This invariably resulted in the person going into an altered state, and VERY QUICKLY I might add. The goal of the handler was to create a core group of loyal "robots" to do his bidding, but he TOLD the volunteers that he was training them to raise their consciousness. The opposite was the result, their consciousness departed and they became maleable to the will of the handler. After one session of this, the person could easily be re-induced. Everytime someone raised their voice or said something abusive, the volunteers were restimulated into a dissociative, compliant, suggestible state. This is BOTH hypnosis and PAVLOVIAN TRAINING (see STOCKHOLM SYNDROME). The person DISSOCIATES because they did not escape THE ABUSE. The person complies because they feel THREATENED.

Now, how many HOURS did each of the Scientologists on this board spend getting BULLBAITED- that is, trained to become entranced and compliant at the cue or trigger of verbal abuse?

Now ask: Why is verbal abuse, screaming and acting out violently so very prevalent in Scientology?

Because it triggers the trained behaviours of trance, compliance, desire to appease the aggressor, and blind obedience.

Here is a question some of us wogs ask: Why are some claimed ex-Scientologists coming onto this board and VERBALLY ABUSING AND BULLBAITING PEOPLE at the same time their posts are advertising a group where no bullbaiting is allowed? If bullbaiting is so bad, why do they do it here themselves?

A more insightful question would be:

Why would a person apply Hubbard Trance Induction and Restimulation Tech to members of this board?

It won't work on the wogs, they didn't get the training and therefore won't obey. But Scientologists MUST BE restimulated in order for their handlers to keep control of them. Remember what I said above- the only way to get someone out of hypnotic control is to separate them from the TRIGGERS AND CUES that they are TRAINED to become ENTRANCED to.

So, in terms of accepting "shades of grey" regarding behaviours one is subjecting oneself to while associating with Scientologists and ex Scientologists, I have to stand firm on the opinion that Bullbaiting should be avoided at all costs if one is trying to break out of Scientology. You may not notice you are being controlled if someone bullbaits another member of this group, but you ARE being RESTIMULATED into an entranced, compliant state. One which you are also trained not to recognize as such. This is EXACTLY how hypnosis works and why it is so insidious. And why certain culture, language, behaviours and techniques of Scientology must be avoided if one is to truly exit.

Bullbaiting isn't the only trigger Scientology uses to keep the trance state active in it's participants, but it is one of the most obvious ones.

More later.

Love,

Os

It is really important to point these tactics out and keep pointing them out the way that Arnie has focused on the issue of hypnotism, because they are SO prevalent, SO covert and SO destructive.

When I was in the cult, (not the Co$) the training I was given was primarily keyed on tone of voice. When things went to a certain place that way, I became the good little robot and did what I believed was expected of me. This was rarely specified, and I believe it was not specified so that I would always have the uncertainty factor hanging over my head and would therefore try harder and harder to please. I was denied the comfort of knowing that I had actually pleased my handlers (who, in the long run, were just not capable of being pleased). I learned years later that there was more to it than tone of voice because some of the old word patterns that were used on me in the cult were able to generate the same effect of making me docile and compliant. I was unable in those periods where induced to think objectively for myself. If someone approached me and asked me WHY I did things when in that mode, I was often either unable to give a reason, or would give a reason that was illogical to the point of being ridiculous.

No one in the cult ever said they were hypnotizing me or doing anything that was for my spiritual benefit. I can't even tell you HOW I was trained that way, but it happened as surely as the sun rises in the east. There was no rubber hose, but there was a lot of yelling and ultimately all it took to restimulate me into the compliant state was the tone of voice. It took forever to recognize the cues, and I still can't say that I see them all, but I now know how to recognize the emotions that they stir in me and I can deal with them through recognizing and dispatching those emotions. The more time passes between me and contact with the cult, the more irrational those emotions feel in relation to situations in my day to day world. It becomes easier and easier to recognize and deal with them.

This sort of behavior creates a fertile field for the playing out of what I see as variants of the Karpman drama triangle.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle)

I spent many years playing these out before I knew there was a name for the game and I see a lot of the bullying and ad homs that occur here as an unfortunate but predictable sort of Karpman triangle response by former cult members to the bullying and bullbaiting they experienced as cult members. A sort of act of compensation in which they can justify and vent some of their frustration and anger by treating others as irrationally as they themselves were treated.

Cheers,

Smitty