Dear AH,

I was only making a suggestion, based on a very well established theory of dream interpretation. I do not know why this is blown so far out of proportion, or why I am being characterized as somehow "telling Wieber" what to think. A suggestion is a suggestion, not an imperative.

The fact that anyone is still dreaming about Scientology after being out of it is proof that it is still manifesting influence over a large part of their UN or SUB CONSCIOUS inner landscape. Can anybody deny that?

I think that when a person stops dreaming about it, then that person will truly be "clear" of Scientology. If making this kind of statement is considered critical of the person who is sharing their dreams, I will retract it from THIS THREAD.

But retracting it will not diminish the truth of it.


Love,

Os

OS,

aaahh..now i ge what you saying. And I totally agree that once we are totally 'clear' of $cientology than the dreams will stop.

Makes total sense.

I have to say I also have kind of daydreams about 'bad things' that could happen in my life because I left $cientology. Even if on a conscious level I know its irrational, on another one I have a sort of fear. You know the 'pull it in' famous line. That one had a big impact on me because of how I already am in the first place. Dont feel to go into details as yet.

Thanks for the clarification
Whitedove

That reminds me of the line in the Lemony Snicket movie where Aunt Josephine tells Klaus to not go too near the fridge because it might fall over and crush him.

I'm not making fun of you. I get those feelings as well. I think there was a lot going on in scientology that we weren't being told about. I think there was stuff being loaded into our psyches on a very subliminal level. Some of that stuff has become our irrational fears of what will happen when we leave, and some of it leaks out in our dreams.

For those still in, this stuff is still being done to them beyond their knowledge, control or consent - never mind the agreements that were signed - and those signatures were all obtained coercively.

Yes, I will dispute that Mr. Os.

Let's say someone has been out for 50 years! Yet participates in following the cult's activities, post on messageboards re: Scientology, etc..

It would be VERY natural, even expected, for Scientology themed dreams to show up in their sleep.

I don't concur the 'benchmark' for a successful exit from the cult is when an Ex stops having dreams about Scientology. I think you are being simplistic, speaking authoritatively about something you shouldn't, and not demonstrating a 'hands on' awareness of how the dream mind 'works'.

I'm saying this knowingly in the face of your stated 'credentials' on your spin-off thread on Opinions and Debate using this threads title.

I'm going to shut the hell up about this dream subject as I dont see it helping much except creating fights.

And anyhow it seems i'm the only one who has said something about it except Wieber and now I feel completely foolish.

I found the subject interesting but I obviously am putting too much significance into it than needed.

so...i said my peace

Dear Whitedove,

The people who should feel foolish are Antique Hoax and myself, not you.

I have responded to your post about "pulling it in" on the other thread if you are inclined to visit there.

Take care, and don't stop posting your dreams. I apologize if I made you or anyone feel uncomfortable.

Love,

Os

Dear AH,

I'm sorry you feel that way and that you have chosen to intrepret my words in the way you did.

I'm sorry that you believe that I am unqualified to discuss how the dream mind works.

I am sorry that you want to be at odds with me over a well considered suggestion based on a lifetime of study of a field where thousands of techniques can be applied and be successful.

To clarify something, I think people who are discussing "Scientology dreams" here mean a certain type of dream which is charged with Scientology contamination.

For example, I dreamt about Arnie Lerma last night. I dreamt that we had met, and were having helpful discussions about the effect of Scientology and how to combat it. We talked long into the night. We fell asleep in my bed. When I awoke in the (dream) morning, I was very happy to see Arnie still sleeping there. However, this bed was not my big queen, it was the bunk bed from my childhood. It was still dark, I couldn't see much, but it also felt like I was in the bedroom of my childhood in Glendale CA. It couldn't be, because the parrot Siofra who lives in my current bedroom was chattering. I wondered if this was disturbing Arnie. I wondered what he would think of Siofra saying "Hello Daddy" and if he would know that she was talking about Smitty, not me or him. I was glad to see Arnie was sleeping through all the noise. He was dreaming too. I wondered if he could see the nakedness under my nightshirt and then thought it didn't matter because nakedness is a human thing. I felt a very warm camaraderie towards Arnie, and wondered if he had the same feeling about me. I wondered why we were sleeping in my childhood bed, not the one in my current home. While still in the dream, I tried to visualize my bedroom, but I could not remember for the life of me try as I might. So I decided to "RV" my home. I willed my consciousness out into the hall and looked down it's length into my current bedroom, where everything was as usual. I hoped that Arnie would not get upset at finding himself in my bed, and that we could continue our conversations about Scientology when he woke up.

I suddenly find myself in my Father's early 70s Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. It is all pimped out in shades of brown, with suede seats and a suede headliner. I notice there is something sprayed onto the headliner that I know came out of a person's head. It looked like some kind of plastic, shaped like cauliflower, but in a spatter pattern. I wondered who my Dad did there. Then I thought, "When Arnie gets in, I'll say, 'Now, THAT's a SPOOK!" (about my Father). Like from the movie "Crocodile Dundee" where he says "That's not a knife. THIS is a knife!".



I am laughing to myself about how dangerous my Father is compared to the Scientologist thugs Arnie knew and wondering if Arnie would be alarmed looking at the spatter on the headliner of Dad's Caddy. I thought Arnie would be arriving soon for the ride. My Mom gets into the car too now. We are going off to look for something in the Rosarito area of Mexico, and it turns out that it is a particular restaurant we seek. We can tell which one only from the menu items listed.

Suddenly, I am driving the Caddy myself. I am supposed to find a locker/parking space with a certain number on it. (I will not say what that number is here) On the way to that number I pass a spot/locker with a number significant to Smitty and myself (a mystical number) and wonder why this isn't the number I am seeking. But the number I am seeking has to do with my Father, Rosarito and Arnie Lerma and is from the past whereas the number for Smitty and me is from the now.

The locker/parking lot turns into just a parking lot now. I see Smitty there exiting a supermarket. I discover that I had found the number I was seeking. Suddenly, instead of being in the Caddy, I was in the parking lot of a supermarket pushing a cart with a very large piece of meat in it and two smaller parcels. I hail Smitty. I wanted to be with Smitty immediately, so I left that huge piece of meat and the cart in the parking lot and quickly walked in his direction to go home with him.

Now, THAT's a Scientology dream even though I was never in Scientology. I don't think it's about Scientology clinging to me, but it is about the cult and activities of my youth clinging to me. I don't think it's trying to tell me that Arnie wants to sleep with me or that I hope Arnie wants to sleep with me. I know myself, my backstory, my Dad's backstory. So, like you or Wieber or anyone else, only I can really analyze what this means. I know which parts are metaphor and which are to be taken literally only because I know the backstory.

Nevertheless, I am hopeful that somebody might want to comment on this without hearing the details of the relevant backstory. I am sincerely interested in how people would analyze this dream if they had it, or what they think of a non Scientologist having such a dream.

I do not believe there is any one way to analyze a dream. The idea I suggested is an old one, that Smitty and I have been working with seriously for about a year, an approach that was recommended to Smitty by a therapist. We have had good results applying it sometimes when it seems like a good idea. We apply it anyhow at all times, just to see how things look from that perspective. It's illuminating, otherwise I would not have stuck my neck out to make the suggestion that it might be good to apply it on Wieber's recurring dream.


Love,

Os

OW (I just made the connection of your initials ),
That is funny

You have not made me uncomfortable. Its the arguing between you and Antique Hoax that confused me and so I decided to stop as not to create more animosity.

I still like this subject very much.
Whitedove

To me it sounds like somebody needs a man cuddle.

Whitedove,

If I agree with Os, will you feel better about things?

Sure then, ...Os take it away!

Tell us about the dream-mind. You'll get no opposition from me.

............

.

Huh? Ok, is that sarcastic?

You guys can rip your head off if you want. I just didnt like it and said so.

Hahaha, thanks for the 'go ahead'!

...that's not going to happen though. We are both here the guest of a fine man and we are both here for the same reason.


...we need a life.

I want to address the problem that has me in this undesirable place...it may sound 'technical' or it may sound boring for all I know what you guys think...

This is not personal, on the other thread at the end of Os' post he says glowingly about the dream-mind..."it never lies"...

That is a very notable thing! Something you could count on!

The truth is the dream-mind not only constantly 'lies', its primary purpose is to 'lie' sometimes. On the whole the entire dream-mind is a 'lie'. It is a 100% fabrication.

When you are 'awake' and observing your REM dream-mind in action you see how it 'works'. I can describe it from an experience happening not long ago. For me this wasn't a typical dream, but the method of "re-writing history" being employed here by the dream-mind was typical of how it 'works' in my experience of many years as a (controlled) LD'er.

The dream source: I had made a mistake at work that day that 'embarrassed' me because it was pure dee dumb. Not only that, I did very poorly in how I handled it with my co-workers who of course all witnessed the mistake.

The dream: When I became lucid that night my dreamscape was my work-place and the 'mistake' was in the air. My dream-mind was 'running' the traumatic event. I'm not going to get into the details of how accurately this scene can be re-played by the dream-mind but it isn't an exact replication.

I was 'in' dream-body experiencing the dream as living it. (it's less intense when viewing yourself, feelings are not as magnified)

What I was doing was interacting with my co-workers the way in which I wish I would have after making my mistake.

It was working this way. It was a 'scene' that didn't seem to have an end. It didn't start over and 'play' again, it just kept playing and that felt 'normal'. It wasn't 'mechanical'. It wasn't mistake, me acting correctly, blip mistake, me acting correctly, blip mistake...


My very best friend was 'lying' to me. I'm ok with it.


The dream-mind deals with more real problems than embarrassment. What I find more and more lately is my dreams are helping me deal with my father's brain-tumor. I'm scared inside. I won't go into details of how, that is too personal, but it does involve my dream-mind 'lying' to me in various ways. So I can deal with it better.



Ex-CoS should have 'bad' dreams. Nightmares at first. It's in the water. To what level they are aware of them is academic to some degree. The dream itself is the 'medicine'. If I had become lucid after the dream scenario described above, I would have never 'known' about it. The intention was to 'trick' my mind into thinking I had acted better and avoided my embarrassment. Maybe so I wouldn't dred going to work the next day? Interact with my co-workers like I was my usual self, never making a mistake? Ha.

So what type of dreams are we hearing Ex's are having? Some not that bad, some totally horrible, some ill-defined and some border-line funny even. Whatever they are, if you look at them, I think you will find your very best friend trying to help you deal with a deeply traumatic experience. Even if it means 'lying' to you. In short, having you act more like you wish you would have, more brave, more whatever...

What I don't think you are going to find in your dream-world is that you've been programmed by the CoS to kill someone when you are given the 'trigger' word.


So there's what I guess I needed to post to feel ok. I hope everyone else feels ok too. I'm not wanting to tell you how much dreaming is right for you, or what your dreams mean to you. I'm wanting to tell you your dream-mind has the ability to alter your perception of reality (lie to you) and uses that ability to help you deal with your problems. Every night, multiple times, whether you know it or not.

Enjoy life. "Living well is the best revenge."

Hey, AH, do YOU think the dream means I need a "man cuddle?"

Love,

Os

Dear AH,

I don't think we are disagreeing on anything but terms and later possibilities of using dreams.

What you are calling "lies" I am calling "uncensored communications with the self". I believe that this is a communication with myself about the content. Rewriting history of an event is a communication with one's self about the content. AN HONEST COMMUNICATION, which may or may not employ symbolizm and metaphor.

But this is my method of dream work.



Well, I think this is a perfect example that we are only disagreeing on terminology, AH. For example, in my dream, the brain spatter showed up like cauliflower plastic stuff, but there is no doubt that this meant that somebody got their brains blown out there. BTW, I never knew why my Dad got rid of that car so quickly after getting it. LOL!





That's why I call it HONEST COMMUNICATION that DOESN'T LIE. Dreams always instruct, process, assist. That is what they are there for IMO. It is a great library of information for survival IMO.

But you can't really take all dreams literally. For example, I do not believe that my dream means I want a "man cuddle" from Arnie but I am talking to myself about how I perceive Arnie in terms of our relationship. In other words, my dream told me I can reveal myself to Arnie because he is fighting on the same side as myself.

Now, say Roan had the same dream. Firstoff, I don't think he would ever admit it or write about it because he is clearly an homophobe. I reckon that he would probably not assess this dream as wanting to be "mancuddled" if he had it. He would say "dreams LIE" (unless he knew what the metaphor meant) and take a bath in Lysol. In my theory, I did not cover up my nakedness because I wanted to be TRANSPARENT to Arnie, not because I wanted sex with him. In fact, I daresay that if Roan had the same dream and found himself half naked in bed with a man, he would COVER UP his nakedness.

And here I am posting the truth and am naked about something important to me regarding Scientology.

AH, this might be interesting to you:

I have a sleeping disorder. I go immediately into R.E.M. sleep. This means that as long as I am asleep (unless very ill or drugged with sedatives) I am dreaming. My dreams (which are lucid on demand after all this work) take up more time than my waking life. They are very important in my world. I can still remember specific dreams I had while residing in my CRIB before I could WALK. I started doing dream WORK when I was FOUR. I had horrible nightmares and other types of dreams of being in the body of adults which were unnatural for a child to have. This was a matter of great interest to my Dad's associates who included various Military/Industrial types and Spychiatrists.

This is why I did a lot of dream work and why I have my little opinions about dream landscapes. The people handling my case were also interested in how my dream mind processed hypnotic suggestions and other things (things that you probably don't believe in but they did) like precognition, telepathy and reconniassance. So, I was queried continually about my dreams. My brother was also in this program as well. We were shuffled into it at a very early age after aptitude testing and actually taken out of school once a week and for six weeks or more in the summer. My brother's dream work also involved sequential eposidic battlefield information retrieval and translation of heiroglyphs- two specific dream and mind research areas I don't recall being engaged in myself. We like to compare notes, as a lot of our amnesia about these events is coming unglued.




AH, before I depart for the day I wanted to tell you that I am sorry to hear about your Father's continuing struggle with cancer. Our family is also struck by cancer, so I have some idea how difficult these times must be for you. I just want to say that I care deeply about you, and pray for the kindest possible outcome for your family during these trying times. I know you are up to the challenge, but it's got to be a heartbreaker.


Love forever,

Os