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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:03 am 
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I'm going to continue posting to this thread as things come up. the last posting was new. The one that is about to follow this one was written a few minutes ago. Things come up. Things bug me. I want to say things. I sometimes can't find a thread to put them, responding to a posting may derail a thread or starting a new thread seems inappropriate so I put it here.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:05 am 
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There is a peculiar thing going on with people who were “in” scientology and who are now “out.” The phrasing may vary but essentially every single person who has left the so called church says the same things.

I could rhyme off names of people who have spoken out, written affidavits, been active, and whatever. It doesn’t really matter their names or the degree of militancy they have. What they have to tell in their stories is amazingly similar. This is the case even when the people involved are worlds apart.

What former members have to say and have to tell those who are still “in” is so similar that one who didn’t know better would think there was organization, direction, and dare I say it, conspiracy among former members. Well, there isn’t a former member leader. There is no conspiracy. No one directs the opinions, actions, or expression (written, verbal or otherwise) of those people who were “in” scientology and who are now “out.”

I think it would be worthwhile pointing out this fact to those who are still “in” when those rare instances happen when one finds them open enough to actually talk and listen.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:12 pm 
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For entertainment I’m reading The Golden Compass by Philip Pullman. For education I’m reading Without Conscience by Robert D. Hare.

So let me put attention on people who have a conscience. People who have a conscience feel guilt, pain, remorse, sadness, shame, blame, regret, (where have I seen those three words before?) and other emotions of that nature. They also feel sympathy and contrary to what the liver lipped one said, sympathy is not a destructive emotion.

There is a behavior characteristic that people with a conscience tend to have. They often hesitate to take action. They hesitate to take action because they do not want to harm. This is not a defect. Fearing to harm another is not a defect. (However this behavior characteristic of those with a conscience is often used against them by those who don’t have a conscience.)

One of or a set of circumstances one tends to go through on exiting a cult is struggling with one’s spirituality. In cults that are styled as ‘religions’ a great deal of damage is done to one’s spiritual nature such that when one leaves such a cult one is left pondering a number of spiritual issues.

I’m not going to get into detail about this. I probably haven’t stated the issue very well, either, but I have a reason for bringing it up.

I believe that the attributes, emotions and attitudes that indicate the presence of conscience in a person are clues to how they are connected to and affected by divinity.

Some approaches to these so called negative and painful feelings would have us ignore, delete, erase, or avoid them. This is especially the case with scientology, where at a certain point in one’s journey into that nightmare realm having those emotions becomes an ‘ethics’ matter.

In my opinion those painful feelings are symptomatic of our connection with the divine and I think we need to pay attention to them and see if we can discern what it is those painful emotions are telling us.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:32 pm 
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What do scientologists believe?

At the moment when that question comes up the answer has to do with Xenu, space aliens, body thetans and other things that come out of the material for “OT III,” (operating thetan level 3.) In actual fact, most scientologists don’t even know about that stuff much less believe it. I suppose those who have completed “OT III” must believe that stuff or pretend to, but I never got that far so I don’t know.

I think that scientologists do have beliefs and I will attempt to ferret some of them out from my recollections and set them down here. These may come out in random fashion.

Scientologists believe that L. Ron Hubbard is mankind’s greatest friend. They believe that only L. Ron Hubbard is capable of doing any research into any subject and making any kind of useful sense out of anything. Most scientologists believe that L. Ron Hubbard is alive as a ‘thetan’ and that some day he will return, having done research into the very upper levels of knowledge that anyone can possibly or impossibly know.

Scientologists believe that the world is in really bad shape. They believe that the all of the world’s society is on a “downward spiral” and that a bad end of the world is imminent. They believe that the only way to stop this decay and to avoid the bad end is by furthering the aims and goals of scientology and by applying the “technology” developed by L. Ron Hubbard. They believe that if it were not for scientologists’ efforts and the application of L. Ron Hubbard’s technology that the world would have already ended by now.

Scientologists believe that distributing copies of the book, The Way to Happiness, will result in society becoming ordered, law abiding and peaceful. They believe that the order that results from the distribution of The Way to Happiness, that scientology will then be able to move in and raise people’s abilities.

Scientologists believe all the promises on the “Grade Chart.” Every major service, and most minor ones, offered in scientology are listed on the grade chart. Each of these services has with it a brief description of an “ability gained” from those services. One example of this is the ability gained from “OT III” is “freedom from overwhelm.” The ability gained at “grade IV release” is “the ability to do new things.” (A discussion and analysis of the grade chart promises would be worthwhile but it is beyond the scope of what I’m dealing with here.)

Scientologists believe that whatever they give to scientology will come back to them with interest. They believe that scientology is the only thing that will save this planet and this sector of the universe from total obliteration. They believe that everything scientology does is the very best thing that can be done for everyone concerned. The aphorism they have for this is, “Scientology is the only game where everybody wins.”

Scientologists believe that their bodies are not them. They believe that they are a spiritual being called a “thetan” and that their bodies are an animal that they train and discipline. They believe that it is good for the body to be pushed to the limit and to be kept at the edge of anxiety, as that keeps the body in “present time.”

I am starting to experience jack in my system. I’ll continue this later.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:06 pm 
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Thank you Wieber. I always get so much insight from reading your posts. I miss my dear friend and everytime I read something insightful, it gives me hope that my friend will find her way out too.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:58 pm 
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Thanks, freethinker01. There are people who are "in" finding their way out, everyday. I think there are people inside who want out but they won't listen to themselves. I hope when your friend gets out that the two of you hook up soon after.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:16 am 
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Scientologists believe that scientology is the most important thing there is. At some point in Hubbard’s writings he says that scientology is “senior to life.” People who are just coming into scientology in the early stages don’t believe this. As they progress and become more and more involved this belief is pushed on them and over time they absorb it and it becomes their belief.

This is “shoved in on” people and reinforced in so many ways. Hubbard actually states this in different ways in his writings and lectures. It shows up in the pejorative regard Hubbard, and subsequently his followers, have for civilization, society, mankind, humanity, science, medicine, education, religion, government, judicial systems, police, military, nutrition, exercise, entertainment, art, fiction, journalism, history, mathematics, electronics, business and every aspect of life as it is lived outside scientology, not to mention psychiatry, psychology and pharmacy. Scientologists believe that all of those things are relatively unimportant and not worth pursuing. This is probably one of the reasons that people who become involved in scientology soon after terminate their education.
(It just occurs to me now that a survey of what scientologists believe should be accompanied with a survey of what they do not believe. Consider this a note to think about that. I may or may not come back to it later.)

Scientologists believe that the eco-system is unimportant. They believe that most animals do not have souls; or rather that “thetans” generally do not involve themselves with having anything to do with animal bodies.

Hubbard had no love for anything. This is demonstrated in his lectures and writings in his attitude to animals. At one point he tells about having a dog. All he did with the dog was train it. He claims that his handling of the dog with effective control put it in good shape. He did not talk about loving the dog or showing it any affection or any of the description or language that a pet owner usually expresses toward their companion.

Scientologists believe that the only value a person has is what that person produces. Go back and read the previous sentence again. This is paradoxical for scientology when you consider that what a person actually is as far as scientology is concerned. To a scientologist a person is a “thetan.” A “thetan” is a spiritual being that does not have any physical characteristics. It does not consist of matter, energy, space, or time. It does not have a location in space. It does not have or consist of a wave length. (Ref: Dianetics 55). This is the entity that scientology purports to make more aware and more able, yet, to a scientologist what is more valuable than a “thetan” is the products that the “thetan” produces. In effect, to a scientologist, what is ultimately more important than a spiritual being are material things.

Scientologists believe in a society which is an organization in which everyone has a post in that organization. Recently there have been events in which David Miscavige has said that everyone on the planet is on scientology’s “org board.” Whether you are a scientologist or not or whether you have signed a contract or not or even whether you agree or not you are on scientology’s “org board.” Hubbard said the “org board” has the capacity for something like thirty billion staff members. This is on one of the tape excerpts that can be listened to in the book store area of all the ‘orgs.’ I may have got that number wrong. If it isn’t thirty billion, it is three hundred billion or it might be thirty trillion. (Hubbard seemed to be fond of overwhelmingly large numbers. Maybe he enjoyed people’s gasps when he stated them.)

Scientologists believe in the hierarchical structure of organizations. They like chain of command structures and they put great store in people’s interrelationship as seniors and juniors. This was reinforced at a number of social events I attended. There were a number of Christmas parties – scientologists love Christmas, they really do – there were a number of Christmas parties and a few dinners where a buffet style serving of food and drink was laid out. At each of these functions a senior person controlled the order in which people were to go and get their food or drink. Sometimes this was done by the LRH Comm (the L. Ron Hubbard communicator). Other times it was a person in the guardian’s office.

In each case the order of those invited to get food or drink was the same. The first person to eat and drink was the executive director. Next came the people above divisional secretary, then the divisional secretaries, then the departmental directors, then the seniors within the departments, then the in/charges and after that everyone else on staff and finally the public. I think that the technical people took precedence over the other divisions as well. In scientology a scientologist certainly knows his or her place.

I think there is more on this subject. I will come back to it if I can think of anything on it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:47 pm 
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Wieber

Great post (Sat July 12)!

I read it and thought how fortunate I am to have left the cult.

It is such a relief not to feel guilty for scientology not being uppermost in your thoughts all the time and for thinking that other, non scio things are actually very important.

We insisted that our daughter had to finish her high school education after she signed a SO contract at age 15. Soon after - about a year later - she completely gave up on this idea, and that was the end of Scio for her. She finished high school, went on to university and now has a great job and making good money. :lol:

The cult would have loved to milk dry a person like her. :twisted:

Opter


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:09 pm 
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Thanks, opter. I love reading your story and stories like it.

This may not relate much, but what you said reminded me of this passage from Without Conscience by Robert D. Hare.

Quote:
But in cases where a psychopath is involved, the impact on the victim can be catastrophic. Psychopaths tend to see any social exchange as a "feeding" opportunity, a contest, or a test of wills, in which there can only be one winner. Their motives are to manipulate and take, ruthlessly and without remorse.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:21 pm 
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Most scientologists do not know anything having to do with Xenu that is revealed at “OT III.” However, “OT III” is certainly not a scientologist’s first introduction to the “space opera” aspect of scientology. Hubbard wrote some material about this, but most of it is in his lectures.

I have listened to some of the lectures on this and have been told quite a bit. Contrary to the ‘no verbal data’ policy most scientologists cannot contain themselves in telling others what ‘Ron’ has said or written. I’ll stick my neck out and say that every scientologist has given ‘verbal data’ to someone else at least one time.

Here’s the pre “OT III” story as best I can remember it. I may get some of the nuts and bolts details wrong. There are enough former scientologists out there to correct me where needed.

There is an interplanetary organization called the Marcab Confederacy. Hubbard said he used the name, Marcab, for convenience and that the confederacy really has another name. There’s more detail on the name and an article on the Marcab Confederacy at these links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markab
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcab_Confederacy

A person who had completed “OT III” told me that Hubbard used to tell his stories to the crew of the Apollo and that he told them we were from Epsilon Orionis, (Alnilam), the middle star in Orion’s belt. This is complete “verbal data.”

The Marcab Confederacy uses Earth as a prison planet. All the “thetans” on this planet are prisoners here. Within the Marcab Confederacy the location of this “prison” and its existence is kept secret. The people on this planet have been implanted to forget that they are here from an off world civilization and that they are prisoners.

The type of people sent here consists of artists, scientists, managers, the very intelligent, criminals, perverts, degraded beings, and the very stupid. Essentially there is no middle ground or average type of people on this planet.

There is an implant station on Mars that is used to maintain the implant on people here. When a person dies, the “thetan” “reports” in to this station or another like it to be implanted again before picking up a new body.

Hubbard said there are three stages to a civilization or that a civilization goes through. They are “frontier,” “electronic,” and “space opera.” (He omitted “steam punk” but what did he know?) He talks much about “space opera” in his lectures.

By the time a person reaches “OT III” he or she has effectively been set up to buy into it with all the previous material on “space opera” that they have been exposed to on the way. A person going into scientology who already knows about Xenu and that story will buy into it when they get to “OT III” because there is so much “set up” material that they will get prior to arriving at “OT III.”

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:38 am 
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In my ongoing recovery from being "in" scientology I have accumulated many books, most of which I have read. Some are still pending.

I have compiled a list of these along with some other cultural references and I will make it available to anyone who wishes to have it.

Among the books I am reading right now is one called Brainwashing: The science of thought control by Kathleen Taylor, Oxford University Press. In the reviews I read for it there was nothing mentioned about cults. The book was presented as a work about its subject and that's all.

I thought it would be helpful so I ordered it. When I got it I had a look through its table of contents and its index. In the index I found 47 references to cults and 2 references to scientology. (To Kathleen Taylor, I apologize for bringing you to the attention of scientology's office of special affairs.)

Isn't it strange how scientology appears in books like this? To those lurking scientologists, how do you account for that?

There is a quote in the book from Robert Lifton's book on brainwashing, Thought Reform & the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of "Brainwashing" in China. (I must admit that I have not summoned sufficient courage to read that book yet, though I am beginning to feel compelled to do so.) I would like to reproduce that quote here.

Quote:
Robert Lifton's Eight Totalist Themes

1 Milieu Control
Control of an individual's communication with the external world, hence of his or her perceptions of reality.

2 Mystical Manipulation
Evoking certain patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that they seem to be spontaneous.

3 The Demand for Purity
The belief that elements outside the chosen group should be eliminated to prevent them contaminating the minds of group members.

4 The Cult of Confession
The use and insistence on confession to minimize individual privacy.

5 Sacred Science
Viewing the ideology's basic dogmas as both morally unchangeable and scientifically exact, thus increasing their apparent authority.

6 Loading the Language
Compressing complex ideas into brief, definitive-sounding phrases, 'thought terminating clichés'

7 The Primacy of Doctrine over Person
The idea that a dogma is more true and more real than anything experienced by an individual human being.

8 The Dispensing of Existence
The right to control the quality of life and eventual fate of both group members and non-members.


As soon as I had finished reading what I have just quoted here, I had to put the book down and just sit quietly for a time. The 8 points listed above come from a study of totalist regimes. It is doubtful that Lifton knew anything of scientology when he made that list, yet every part of it describes exactly what goes on in scientology.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:44 am 
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Just for the record here is my reading list in its current form.

Quote:
Reading and Cultural References List

Books

1984
George Orwell

Animal Farm
George Orwell

L. Ron Hubbard
Messiah or Madman?
Bent Corydon and L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. aka Ronald DeWolf

Barefaced Messiah
The True Story of L. Ron Hubbard
Russell Miller

Battle for the Mind
A Physiology of Conversion and Brainwashing
William Sargant

Becoming a Critical Thinker: A Guide for the New Millenium
Robert Todd Carroll, PhD

Brainwashing
The Science of Thought Control
Kathleen Taylor

Combatting Cult Mind Control
Steven Hassan

Cults in Our Midst:
The Continuing Fight Against Their Hidden Menace
Margaret Thaler Singer PhD

Hitler’s Second Book
Adolph Hitler

Mein Kampf
Adolph Hitler

A Piece of Blue Sky
John Atak

Recovery from Cults
Help for Victims of Psychological and Spiritual Abuse
Edited by Michael D. Langone PhD

Releasing the Bonds:
Empowering People to Think for Themselves
Steven Hassan

The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
William. L. Shirer

The Scandal of Scientology
Paulette Cooper

Snakes in Suits
Paul Babiuk & Robert D. Hare

The Sociopath Next Door
Martha Stout PhD

Take Back Your Life
Recovering from Cults and
Abusive Relationships
Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias

Thought Reform & the Psychology of Totalism:
A Study of "Brainwashing" in China
Robert J. Lifton

Trauma and Recovery
The Aftermath of Violence –
From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror
Judith Herman M.D.

The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements
Eric Hoffer

Twisted Scriptures
Breaking Free from Churches That Abuse
Mary Alice Chrnalogar

Without Conscience
Robert D. Hare PhD

Movies

The Bad Seed
Mervyn LeRoy 1956

Bedazzled
Harold Ramis 2000

The Chronicles of Narnia
The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe 2005
Andrew Adamson

Click
Frank Coraci 2006

The Departed
Martin Scorsese 2006

Danny the Dog
(Unleashed)
Louis Leterrier 2005

Gaslight
George Cukor 1944

The Mind Benders
Basil Dearden 1963

The Night of the Hunter
Charles Laughton 1955

Pinocchio
Hamilton Luske & Ben Sharpsteen 1940

Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
William Shatner 1989

Triumph des Willens
(Triumph of the Will)
Leni Reifenstal 1935

The Truman Show
Peter Weir 1998

TV Shows

Futurama
Episode
Season 1, number 9: Hell is Other Robots 2003

Millennium
Episode
Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense 1997

South Park
Episodes
504 - The Super Best Friends 2001
912 - Trapped in the Closet 2005
1001 - The Return of Chef 2006

Star Trek
Episodes
The Return of the Archons 1967
This Side of Paradise 1967
Who Mourns for Adonais? 1967
And the Children Shall Lead 1968
The Way to Eden 1969

Time Team
Episode
Jailhouse Rocks, Appleby, Cumbria 2003

Audio Recordings (CDs)

Replicas
Gary Numan


I have found most of the items on this list to have been therapeutic for me in some way. There are some books on the list I have not got to reading yet, though I have acquired them. I hope this may be of help to you who are reading this.

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 Post subject: recovery from Scientology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:59 am 
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Wieber wrote:
In my ongoing recovery from being "in" scientology I have accumulated many books, most of which I have read. Some are still pending.

I have compiled a list of these along with some other cultural references and I will make it available to anyone who wishes to have it.



Wieber,

Here are a few things that I believe help in the recovery from Scientology:

1) Continue writing your own Scientology songs or do a few parodies. Who knows. Maybe you will get lucky. An enormously catchy tune with clever lyrics that gets everyone singing that ridicules the heck out of Scientology may help make them a laughing stock bigtime. Probably the one thing they can't survive being is a laughing stock.

2) To parahphrase LRH ... make money, make more money, and get to the point where you can hire some people to make even more money FOR YOU. Just be sure to put it into your OWN damn pocket as opposed to some "save the world" horseshit. Nothing helps you get past Scientology like living well.

3) If you aren't already involved (and in some cases even if you are) find yourself a gal that you really enjoy being with, both in bed and out.

Part of what happened with me in Scientology ... I was TAD (temporary active duty) at a schools command, (was in the Navy at the time) AWAY from Scientology for 6 months in 1979. I was NOT being redged. I was NOT on a course. Pretty soon I was enjoying life, including a girl friend, with no Scientological hangups or worries. It felt great. Too bad I wasn't bright enough to figure out WHY life was so enjoyable or what was otherwise causing me misery. Anyways, as my parody goes, "Don't worry, be espee."

Pete


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:37 am 
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Wieber,

That's a good list of books and other materials. I've read 8 of the books on your list. These books helped me deprogram myself after I left the cult in 1982. Your posts are always well thought out and informative. Thanks. -- Thorn


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:13 pm 
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I wanted to put this quote somewhere on this message board. It is quoted in Robert J. Lifton's book, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of 'Brainwashing' in China.

The quote if from Lao Tze.

Quote:
Only simple and quite words will ripen of themselves. For a whirlwind does not last for the whole morning. Nor does a thundershower last for the whole day. Who is their author? The heaven and earth. Yet even they cannot make such violent things last. How much more true this must be of the rash endeavors of man.

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