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 Post subject: Hubbard Family Tree
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:54 pm 
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I'm trying to get some info on the Hubbard family. I know that Diana married a Jonathan Horwich and had a daughter named Roanne (sp?) Did she have any other children? Does Jonathan have a brother named Steven D. Horwich? Does Jonathan have any other brothers or sisters?

Thanks for any help you can give me.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:42 pm 
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Basic answers are "no," "no," and "yes."

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:42 am 
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Hubbard descendants:
Summary: In Sea Org is only one Hubbard child, Diana, and no grandchildren now that Roann Leake has quit). Hubbard had 6 other children, three of whom (Nibs, Katherine, and Quentin) have died. Alexis was never in Scientology, and Suzette and Arthur appear inactive or out of Scientology. I could find 15 grandchildren that I know of (Nib's 6 + Katherine's 2 + Alexis' 3 + Diana's 1+ Suzette's 3). Jamie DeWolfe, formerly Jamie Kennedy, and Jamie's unnamed brother, mentioned on a radio show, are the only great-grandchildren I found in the media, although there must be more. Jamie DeWolfe's daughter Nadia is the only great-great grandchild I could find the name of.

Details:
Wife: Margaret Louise Grubb ("Polly", m. 13-Apr-1933, div. 24-Dec-1947, two children) (Note 15)Her 2nd husband was John Ochs, and she apparently died in 1963 (Note 24)
I. L. Ron Hubbard Jr. ( ("Nibs", "Ronald DeWolf", b. 7-May-1934) near San Diego. (Note 1) Nibs had six children (Note 8), at least one of whom was born to his wife Henrietta in London in 1955 (Note 9). Nibs kept his family out of Scientology (Note 30). Gave a lurid 1983 Penthouse interview. (Note 10) Written out of the 1979, 1982, and 1986 wills (Notes 13, 21, and 22). Died in 1991 (Note 11) in Carson City, NV (Note 11a) One of his grandchildren, through Jamie’s mother, is Jamie DeWolfe, former known as Jamie Kennedy (someone else had the Kennedy name), outspoken performer and critic. (Note 11a) Jamie’s daughter, Nadia, was born around 2000 (Note 11b). Jamie has a brother (Note 11c) None of Nib’s descendants are Scientologists (Note 11c)

II. Katherine May Hubbard (b. 15-Jan-1936) in New York City (Note 2) Married in 1957; divorced in 1958 (Note 12) At time of Hubbard’s 1979, 1982, and 1986 wills, her surname was Gillespie. (Notes 13, 21 & 22) Written out of the first and second will but not out of the final will.
Died May 29, 2010 in Portland OR; Findagrave page has more details (Note 48).

Wife: Sara Elizabeth Northrup (m. 10-Aug-1946, div. 12-Jun-1951, one child, bigamy) (Note 15) Wikipedia article (Note 25) Sara's surname was Hollister in 1984 (Note 34) Sara may have died 19 Dec 1997 (Note 36)

III. Alexis Valerie Hubbard (b. 8-Mar-1950) in New Jersey (Note 3). Never acknowledged as an offspring in Hubbard's wills. Alexis took her step-father's surname, Hollister, and was rebuffed after attempting to contact Hubbard (Note 37). There are two mentions that Alexis got a settlement, one mentioning the date June 1986 settlement.(Note 27). Freezone.org's timetrack says Alexis didn't get a settlement (Note 35) Alexis was married and had at least two children. (Note 28) Alexis has three children, details provided by Knowledge on page five of this thread, (Note 49)

Wife: Mary Sue Whipp (m. Mar-1952, two daughters, two sons) (Note 15) The Story of Mary Sue Hubbard has lots of photos and description of her work (Note 31). Photo of Mary Sue, Ron & their four children (Note 33) Lived with three children on the Apollo in 1974 (Note 42). Imprisoned for Snow White conspiracy, died 25 Nov 2002 (Note 26)

IV. Diana Meredith de Wolfe Hubbard (b. 24-Sep-1952) in London (Note 4)
Diana has several names:
Diana or Diane Hubbard or Diane Ryan or Diane Horwich
Engaged around 1970 to a person on the Apollo (Note 42)
Married before March 1974 to John Horwich (Note 43)
Photo of Diana in Sea Org cap (Note 38)
Diana's surname was Horwich on 15 Dec 1979 (Note 13)
"In 1979, Hubbard lived with her husband audiophile Jonathan Horwich and her daughter Roanne, in Clearwater, Florida." (Note 13a)
Divorced from Jonathan Horwich. (Note 18)
Jon Horwich is ex-Sea Org as of about 2004 (Note 19, page 3)
Diana's surname was Ryan on 10 May 1982 (Note 21) and still was Ryan on 23 January 1986 (Note 22).
She divorced John Ryan in the mid-1980's (Note 22 a)
Diana is IMPR Scriptwriter at Gold (Note 19)
Diana's only child is Roanne Horwich, daughter of Jonathan Horwich, born 14 Feb 1978.(Note 19a)
Roanne Horwich married Christian Hans Wold in 1994 (Note 19b) She was 16 and he was 17 at the time (Note 19c)
Blownforgood reported that Roanne Horwich flipped and totaled a car at Int Base.(Note 19)
Roanne was an electrician at Gold, a bit over 30 in 2008, and married to Chris Leake (Note 20)
Roanne has now quit Sea Org, (Note 47).

V. Geoffrey Quentin McCaully Hubbard ("Quentin") (b. 6 January 1954) (Note 5) Photo of Quentin as a young man at note 31. Died 12 November 1976.

VI. Mary Suzette Rochelle Hubbard ("Suzette") b. 13 February 1955 (Note 6) Two 1974 photos (Note 45). Photo and brief romance with Arnie Lerma (Note 32)
Left Scientology, one source said she had 4 children (Note 14) although Mark Rathbun only names three (Note 46), and a search of California births at http://www.familysearch.org only names three.
Suzette's surname on 15 December 1979 was Hubbard (Note 13)
Suzette's surname on 10 May 1982 was Titmus (Note 21)
Suzette and her husband were thrown out of Gilman Hot Springs in 1982. (Note 23)
Suzette's surname on 23 January 1986 was Hubbard (Note 22)
Suzette expressed anger at exclusion from Hubbard's death, and may have received a settlement through her mother (Note 17)
Some at CoS speculated Suzette's son was the reincarnated Hubbard (Note 41)
“Suzette was married to Guy White, March 8th 1986 (Note 46). Guy is ex-Sea Org executive. Now divorced. She did work for a marketing company in LA (hightechbiz.com). However, her name is no longer on their website. Assume she's still living in LA or the LA area.
They got divorced in the '90's I believe," said Tory. (Note 16)

VII. Arthur Ronald Conway Hubbard (b. 6 June 1958, probably in Washington, DC). (Note 7). Arthur has a photo probably around age 20 (Note 44) Arthur and his wife were thrown out of Gilman Hot Springs in 1982 (Note 23). Hubbard's son, Arthur, was said to have been hidden away in Happy Valley for a year after the death of his father, when Arthur had wanted to leave the "Sea Org." (Note 39). Stayed with German scientologist Gottfried Helnwein in 1990 Note 40) Left Scientology (Note 14)

Note 1: Bare-Faced Messiah (BFM), http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm , page 64
Note 2: BFM, page 70
Note 3: BFM, page 152
Note 4: BFM, page 208
Note 5: BFM, page 214
Note 6: BFM, page 221
Note 7: BFM, page 230
Note 8: BFM, page 311 “After 'blowing the org' in 1959, fortune had not smiled on Nibs. He had drifted from job to job, finding it ever more difficult to support his wife and six children,”
Note 9: BFM, page 221 “Nibs had a wife, Henrietta, also pregnant in 1955”
Note 10, Penthouse http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews ... w-1983.htm
Note 11: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 115109.DTL
Note 11a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_DeWolf, plus Social Security Death Index.
Note 11b http://www.ohdangmag.com/features/jamie/index.htm
Note 11c http://xenutv.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/ ... bbas-show/
Note 12: BFM, page 228. “Catherine, then twenty-one, had started working for the organization in Washington but saw little of Hubbard. She married a Scientologist in 1956 which would have pleased her father except he did not like the man; the marriage could not survive his disapproval and she divorced in 1957.”
Note 13: Hubbard's first will, http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/docu ... 1will.html
Note 13a: Wikipedia article about Diana's album Life Times, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LifeTimes
Note 14 http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/26600/3576.html
Note 15 http://www.nndb.com/people/212/000092933/
Note 16 Tory, viewtopic.php?p=172295
Note 17: "In fact Defendants' family is believed to have been kept in
ignorance of Defendant's purported stroke, demise and lack
of autopsy until after these events had occurred. Suzette
Hubbard is believed to have been particularly angered by
David Miscavige's actions in this regard." from http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/newsbrief6.htm
Note 18: Little Bear Victor at viewtopic.php?t=25295
Note 19: viewtopic.php?t=27233
Note 19a: U.S. Public Records Index, Vol. 2, Name: Roanne L Horwich, Birth Date: 14 Feb 1978, Address: 19625 Gilman Springs Rd, Gilman Hot Springs, CA
Note 19b: Nevada Marriage Index, 1956-2005
Name: Roanne Lee Marysu Horwich
Gender: Female
Residence State: California
Spouse: Christian Hans Wold
Spouse residence state: California
Marriage Date: 2 Dec 1994
Marriage County: Clark
Officiant type: Religious celebrant
Recorded Date: 5 Dec 1994
Recorded county: Clark
Book: 1205, Page: C585669, Instrument number:90787
Note 19c: U.S. Public Records Index, Volume 2, Name: Christian H Wold, Birth Date: 13-Feb-77, Address: 19625 US Hwy 79, San Jacinto, CA
Note 20: Little Bear Victor, viewtopic.php?t=17650
Note 21: Hubbard's second will, http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/docu ... 6will.html
Note 22: Hubbard's "final," "thumbprint" will, http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/docu ... 3will.html
Note 22a: "She (Diana Hubbard) married John Ryan, a public Scientologist who was a music producer. I think he produced her albums at the time. They divorced sometime in the mid 80s, I think," said Lulu Belle, 6th April 2007, Gold Base Staff List - Hemet, http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.p ... list-Hemet
Note 23: "In ...1982, Suzette...was ordered to be David Miscavige's personal maid... Cedars complex. This assignment came after Suzzette and Arthur Hubbard were thrown out of Gilman Hot Springs by David Miscavige's wife Shelley, for being "out-security". This "out-security" was based on the assertion that both Suzette and Arthur's spouses were not, according to Miscavige, eligible for the security clearance necessary to live at Gilman Hot Springs." from http://www.freezone.org/reports/e_tyros.htm
Note 24: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Grubb
Note 25: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Northrup
Note 26: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue_Hubbard
Note 27: Messiah or Madman (M or M), at http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/m ... Madman.txt ,page 10 "a woman - now in her mid-thirties with red hair and unmis-
takable features distinguishing her as a Hubbard - whose first name is
Alexis, was paid a sum of money to settle her claim to part of
Hubbard's estate."
Note 28: M or M, pages 290-291: "In June of 1986 the Church of Scientology agreed to a financial settlement with Alexis. At that settlement conference they tried to get Alexis to write an affidavit that she was the daughter of Ron Jr. They had her fingerprinted and video-taped and, in exchange for
an unspecified sum of money, had her sign an agreement that she
would not write or speak on the subject of L. Ron Hubbard and her
relationship to him."
Note 29: M or M, page 291: Sara said: "She (Alexis) got a very small settlement. But she has a husband who
adores her, and life is good for her and her children. She doesn't need
a lot of money, and, especially, she doesn't need the harassment.
Note 30: M or M, page 315: "Hubbard, apparently resentful that his son had kept his wife and children out of the organization, had cut Ron Jr.'s weekly pay to almost nothing."
Note 31: The Story of Mary Sue Hubbard, by Michel Snoeck, http://www.wiseoldgoat.com/papers-scien ... y_sue.html This writer is looking for a pony in all the Hubbard horse$%!* but the photos are good and new to me.
Note 32: http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews ... blade.html
Note 33: http://www.mgtconcepts.com/ronsorg.nl/s ... family.htm
Note 34: http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/hubbards-will.htm
Note 35: http://www.freezone.org/timetrack/1986.htm
Note 36: The Social Security Death Index has a Sara N Hollister, born April 8, 1924, Social Security # issued in California, died 19 December 1997 in Hadley, MA. The birth year is exactly one year off from Wikipedia, but this is common as the informant, usually the aged person's child, remembers the birthday but gets the year wrong. This was found by a search for "Sara Hollister" at http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi
Note 37: BFM, Page 305.
Note 38: http://www.xenu.net/entheta/entheta/med ... cret3.html
Note 39: http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/usa/g80728ae.htm
Note 40: http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/germany/b ... /has06.htm
Note 41: "When L. Ron Hubbard's daughter, Suzette, had a baby boy he was -- again, they thought he was the reincarnation of their founder. " Andrew Morton (Cruise biographer), interview with CNN, http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0801/17/cnr.06.html
Note 42: BFM, page 303.
Note 43: "His wife Mary Sue and some of his children, Diana and her husband, John Horwich; Quentin, 19; Suzette, 17, and Arthur, 13, live on the Apollo." http://www.scientology-lies.com/press/s ... ology.html
Note 44: BFM, page 304.
Note 45: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... image&cd=1
Note 46: http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... ds-family/
Note 47: http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninsca ... ige_sr.php
Note 48: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... d=97456476
Note 49: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29488&start=60
Comments and corrections, please!


Last edited by Don Carlo on Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:54 am, edited 15 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:30 pm 
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Very interesting. All of LRH's children have left Scientology, one via R2-45 (ie: suicide). Interesting that each and every one of them was suppressive or PTS. What an embarrassment to the church! :oops:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:51 pm 
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Diana didn't leave, and neither did her only daughter Roanne. They are trapped in the Sea Org. When CoS falls, won't Diana have a story to tell! LATER EDIT MARCH 2013: Roanne has quit.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:51 pm 
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Thank you LBV and dear sir, Don Carlo. I had thought this guy was possibly Jon's relative: http://www.ethicalart.org/bio.html.

I see that Ro ann married a guy by the name of Leake. Did this Chris Leake come from SF Bay Area? I know of a Chris Leake from around here.

Once again thanks for the data.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:10 pm 
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I do believe that is Jim & Debbie's son


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:15 pm 
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Thank you no_8c_now, I thought that was him.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:00 pm 
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Quote:
Diana didn't leave, and neither did her only daughter Roanne. They are trapped in the Sea Org.


Interesting. In other places I have read that she left the "church", such as:

http://www.insolitology.com/topten/koos ... i-294i.htm

http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/jesse_tape3j.html

...but then other places indicate she's still in:

http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=3466&page=4

Hopefully she is living a real life now.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:04 pm 
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Diana should get out and write a book, now, before the rush of ex-Sea Org workers clogs the bookstores with lurid stories. Public interest in CoS is still high because Tom Cruise is still "in" and still popular in the gossip magazines. In ten years, he'll be 56 and old news. Or, he & other celebrities might have quit, making CoS in 2018 more like the Moonies, where the only celebrity is the "Messiah" himself, Sun Myung Moon. Lurid though the Moonies are, you don't see them in the tabloids due to their severe celebrity deficit.

So get cracking, Diana. Walk out the door and get that book deal. Maybe you can break the phony one-day-before-death will that the comatose Hubbard "signed" with a thumbprint.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:10 pm 
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Don Carlo wrote:
Diana should get out and write a book, now...

So get cracking, Diana. Walk out the door and get that book deal. Maybe you can break the phony one-day-before-death will that the comatose Hubbard "signed" with a thumbprint.

I'm sure that Miscavige has her under wraps. Big time. If she ever got out, it would be a huge PR disaster for Co$ and Miscavige in particular.

DM must have her under constant watch and heavy handlings/sec. checks. I wouldn't be surprised if she is actually a locked up captive at Gold Base, not allowed to leave without handlers.

Though I don't know that she WANTS to leave. The Scientology mental conditioning must be pretty strong, it's all she knows. Plus, the fact that she probably does not want to leave where RoAnne is. I'm sure DM uses RoAnne to help make sure Diana stays.

I agree with you though, DC... she should get out while the gettin' is good. Her book would be the best, but not in a saturated or "who cares anymore?" market.

.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:42 pm 
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Good research, DC. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:59 pm 
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May 10, 1982 Will (Hubbard's second will):
Quote:
I further declare that I have five (5) children now living, namely DIANA MEREDITH DeWOLF HUBBARD RYAN, SUZETTE HUBBARD TITMUS, ARTHUR RONALD CONWAY HUBBARD, L. RON HUBBARD JR., also known as NIBS HUBBARD, and KATHERINE MAY HUBBARD GILLESPIE, all of whom are adults. I have one (1) deceased child, namely QUENTIN HUBBARD. ...it being my intend that L. RON HUBBARD, JR., also known as NIBS HUBBARD, KATHERINE MAY HUBBARD GILLESPIE and QUENTIN HUBBARD and their issue not take under my will....
I have intentionally omitted to provide herein for ALEXIS HOLLISTER, who may pretend to be my heir, but is in fact not and has never been my heir.


So, Hubbard’s May 10, 1982 will specifically disinherits Nibs, Katherine, Alexis and Quentin and their heirs, but the other children can't claim anything because a critical page is missing – in which Hubbard probably divides his loot among some Scientology entity with a generous payoff for Mary Sue, Diana, Suzette, and Arthur.

Suzette's surname in 1982 was Titmus, which may be a surname for some or all of her children. Diana's surname in 1982 was Ryan, but Diana's doesn't appear to have any children with that husband.

See
http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/docu ... 6will.html

Pat and Anne M. Broeker witnessed this will. Lawyers involved were Meade Emory, Lyman D. Spurlock, Jr., and Norman Starkey.


Last edited by Don Carlo on Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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15 Dec 1979 Will: (Hubbard’s first will)
Quote:
I further declare that I have five (5) children now living, namely DIANA MEREDITH DeWOLF HUBBARD HORWICH, SUZETTE HUBBARD, ARTHUR RONALD CONWAY HUBBARD, L. RON HUBBARD JR., also known as NIBS HUBBARD, and KATHERINE MAY HUBBARD GILLESPIE, all of whom are adults. I have one (1) deceased child, namely QUENTIN HUBBARD.

I have intentionally and with full knowledge omitted to provide herein for any of my heirs who may be living at the time of my death, including, but not limited to, ALEXIS HOLLISTER, L. RON HUBBARD JR., also known as NIBS HUBBARD, KATHERINE MAY GILLESPIE, QUENTIN HUBBARD


Mary Sue gets the house & effects, and the rest is split according to the L. RON HUBBARD INTER VIVOS TRUST AGREEMENT(Note 1)

This was witnessed by Pat & Ann-Marie Tidman Broeker, and Diana Sue Reisdorf Voegeding. Lawyers involved were Meade Emory, Sherman Lenske, and Norton S. Karno.
Details are from
http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/docu ... 1will.html

Note 1: This Inter Vivos Trust Agreement has vanished, says http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/docu ... ml?FACTNet


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:12 pm 
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23 January 1986 ("final" "thumbprint" will)
Quote:
I have five (5) children now living, namely
DIANA MEREDITH DeWOLF HUBBARD RYAN,
MARY SUZETTE ROCHELLE HUBBARD,
ARTHUR RONALD CONWAY HUBBARD,
LAFAYETTE RONALD HUBBARD, JR., also known as L. RON HUBBARD, JR., also known as NIBS HUBBARD, also known as RONALD DeWOLF, and
KATHERINE MAY HUBBARD GILLESPIE, all of whom are adults. I have one (1), deceased child, namely, QUENTIN HUBBARD...
..."my children"... shall be deemed to refer only to
DIANA MEREDITH DeWOLF HUBBARD RYAN,
MARY SUZETTE ROCHELLE HUBBARD,
ARTHUR RONALD CONWAY HUBBARD, and
KATHERINE MAY HUBBARD GILLESPIE, and shall not refer to
LAFAYETTE RONALD HUBBARD, JR., also known as L. RON HUBBARD, JR., also known as NIBS HUBBARD, also known as RONALD DeWOLF, (or)
QUENTIN HUBBARD, it being my intent that LAFAYETTE RONALD HUBBARD, JR., also known as L. RON HUBBARD, JR., also known as NIBS HUBBARD, also known as RONALD DeWOLF, QUENTIN HUBBARD, and their issue shall not take under my Will.


Witnessed by Anne M. Broeker, Patrick D. Broeker, Stephen J. Pfauth, Raymond Mithoff
The main lawyer appears to be Meade Emory.
While previous wills said nothing about cremation or forbidding an autopsy, this one specifically did.

Details from http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/docu ... 3will.html

This will distributes the loot via Author's Family Trust B, at http://www.sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com/docu ... 3aftb.html
This gives Mary Sue $1 million plus a house, plus $10,000 a month living expenses in a complicated trust. It gives $100,000 each to Katherine, Diana, Suzette, and Arthur. Each of those children's children get $50,000 each. The remainder becomes the CoS empire. Author's Family Trust B firmly exists, unlike the missing page from the 1982 will, or the missing "Inter Vivos Trust" from the 1979 will. How ironic that the same cast of lawyers managed to misplace parts of the earlier wills, but the "thumbprint will" is triumphantly intact.

Graham Berry has argued against the thumbprint will:
Quote:
Furthermore, there is no document on the Court file
evidencing that Mary Sue Hubbard and each of the Hubbard heirs
(whether disinherited or not) had been apprised of their statutory
rights in connection with either their community property rights,
inheritance rights or any other rights in connection with the
copyrights, Disputed Works and other intellectual property assets
of Mr. Hubbard. In addition, there is no evidence that any of them
knowingly waived those rights after receiving truly independent
legal counsel. L. Ron Hubbard and Mary Sue Hubbard were married
for 34 years and all of the Disputed Works were written during the
marriage and subject to Mary Sue Hubbard's community property
interests. Notwithstanding, paragraph 11 of the Report to Executor
waiver of Accounting filed December 15, 1988 that "the whole of the
estate is decedent's separate property." Nothing further has been
filed in relation thereto.

from http://www.factnet.org/slopb.htm Page 24 and 25.

Graham Berry also stated:
Quote:
It would appear from the L. Ron Hubbard Probate
Court file that the L. Ron Hubbard probate proceeding has never
been closed and that Norman F. Starkey is still acting as both
Special Administrator and Executor. The file contains no
receipts from the distributee(s) nor any order of discharge.
Accordingly, Mr. Starkey is still subject to suit in his capacity
as Executor of the Estate of L. Ron Hubbard.
from Item 24, http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/docs/berry ... letter.txt

Mary Sue's house, Chislehurst Drive, Los Angeles, was described in Author's Family Trust and was also her place of death, on 25 Nov 2002, according to her death certificate, at http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/mary-sue-h ... death2.htm


Last edited by Don Carlo on Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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